Proposed changes to PianoRoll pattern...

Dear Music Fans,

I wished the PianoRoll pattern would be rather readable from top to down. The fields for the black keys should be replaced by just lines as to faithfully reflect a continues keyboard pattern... just like my image shows:

http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/8800/pianorollgq8.jpg

This would enable us/me to use this pattern as notation by transfering the midi notation directly to the keys; the length of the notes indicate its timing.
Anyone as fond as me on this pragmatic idea?

Perhaps it should be made at least an option...

Very important:
To respond, please use my new e-mail addresse: jdrinda@hotmail.com or I might miss your responses... Thx

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/featurerequest.asp

Good thinking Beagle, or he should simply just view user-opinions...here.

---?---um, where would the flats and sharps be on the note grid in the Piano View---?---Sitting balanced on the cracks between the white notes---?

Randy
rbowser

jjjdri3

Are you serious?

Sure...I'm serious, no Q about that, so,please...stop giggling! :) Back to work:

Of course all half notes go into its lanes. The white keys/notes into its white lanes and the black keys/ 3 or b onto the lines. How else, hey?

The black lines (depicting black keys) would (also thicker drawn for speedy orientation) would be lighter in color than the notes. Thus this kind of notation would virtually mirror the keyboard! Got it now? [ 8D]

PS. In case there are any other probs, rest assured I got a cure worked on each of them; i.e. I did my homework on it! :)

Here's another pic of it with inserted notes:

[image] [/image] Here you can exactly see which note means which key... or don't you see it?

Important Note: To make the pattern look even more keyboard alike, a doted line can be inserted between notes e & f and b & c.
What do you say now? You bet I'm serious about it?

I don't know jj. That would look a lot like a staff, but it isn't. I don't know about anybody else, but it would confuse the heck out of me. I think the current rendition, with shaded bars for the black keys, and white bars for the white keys makes sense.

Why is that? It fact it merely mirrors the keyboard!!! If this confuses you... I'm sure any keyboard must be confusing to you, too. :)

Think again: it only shows the actual position of the notes on the keys... What could be more logical? Of course if you have studied and used conventional for decades, it might be hard to acknowledge the merits of uncomplicated notation of logical sorts.

I think the current rendition, with shaded bars for the black keys, and white bars for the white keys makes sense.

How can it... please reconsider: The pattern as is in the present piano roll is unequal, because the spaces are different from the actual keyboard pattern. I.e. the white keys are together (at least in the pattern) and the black keys are not directly dividing the white keys as shown in the piano roll. That's rather confusing... because it's different from the keyboard pattern.
Whereas my pattern makes the visual transfer of notes to keys almost natural. After getting used to the spaces of my piano roll pattern, you'll learn to gauge and transfer the distances between the notes to the keyboard. Just keep looking at the piano roll and play the keyboard (!) Presto, even laymen (like me: jdrinda.tripod.com) won't have excuses anymore for being notation illiterate. ¿Que mas quieres? jjj fom Chile

Personally, I would prefer the piano roll to look as much as possible like a piano - not on the side(like SHS4) or upsidedown. but horizontally like a real piano. It could be either at the top or at the bottom of the page...

Still not good enough, because (as mentioned) the black keys divide the keyboard pattern on the current piano roll, making visual gauging of distances incompatible with the actual keyboard pattern, where all white keys are together (not visually divided by black keys).

That's why the only way to represent a continues keyboard pattern is by showing the black keys as just lines.
I know, it takes a while to realize this subtlle difference... Mind you, I couldn't figure it out in 5 minutes, either! :) One thing is clear: Albeit I cannot figure out conventional notation in (e.g.) f#, yet if the same is represented in my suggested notation, I have no trouble to play the correct notes. That's a remarkable progress for hobby musicians or don't you agree? Let profi musicians waste their time with awkward notations...

Well, what if someone wanted to play Pentatonic scales? How would he achieve that with your Piano Roll?

That's merely a designer's task, because the current piano roll doesn't support this either- or?
My idea is only suited for keyboard players... using piano style keyboards. I didn't see many different piano style keyboards than the ones 'normal pianos' use, did you? Tell me about.

I wished the PianoRoll pattern would be rather readable from top to down. The fields for the black keys should be replaced by just lines as to faithfully

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to solve here. If you want to see from top to down, you can just disable tabs and zoom out until you get to see everything you need. I like the piano roll view as is.

Regardless of what you like and what we like, the only way you can propose changes is thru that link I provided. We're users, not programmers for Cakewalk.

Sorry, I think you're off the mark JJ, Sonar's designers have simply extended the black note space forward as a grey strip; this is perfectly logical and comfortable. I could not imagine placing black notes on the cracks between the white notes, just not 'right' in my mind.

James

Once again....

Here's the keyboard pattern of the current PianoRoll. Visibly irregular; hardly suited to gauge/transfer distances from this pattern to the keyboard:

[image][/image]

Now, here's my suggested PianoRoll pattern, ideally suited to visibly gauge & transfer distances from this pattern to the keyboard, for it virtually mirrors the keyboard pattern ( ! )

[image][/image]

Note: Please copy and enlarge the patterns, because here they are shown a bit too small.

I find the Piano Roll setup more useful the way it is now.
It looks like JJ's plan has the sharps and flats with a thinner space to plug in notes? Why? That'll ony help if you write in C.

That's why it could be made an OPTION so, that we both are happy... :)

Wow, you've put a lot of energy into this JJ.

I must be missing something---in your proposed version of the Piano Roll, how are the length of notes depicted? Are they elongated vertically? I guess so--that's the only place where they could go.

The main reason the keyboard in the Piano View was designed to be on its side, was so that the time line of music could be depicted in a logical linear flow, horizontally. With things turned the way you propose, you would have to be constantly scrolling down to see the end of notes, since their lengths could only be depicted vertically---?

As for the sharps and flats balancing on the thin dividing lines, just for the sake of looking more like a piano--I really have no idea why that would be considered an improvement. The current style of the Piano View, used by every manufacturer of sequencer software, is an "exploded" keyboard view where all notes have equal importance visually---as they should.

Interesting---But even with your suggestions that we just haven't thought long enough about it etc---um, I see Zero point in what you're saying. Oh well!

Randy
rbowser

rBowser:

length of notes ... they elongated vertically?

Correct! Their length can be adjusted as not to take up to much space.

depicted in a logical linear flow, horizontally

An OPTION would allow you to switch to your preference. To use the PianoRoll as notation my proposed pattern is far superior (as already detailed) to the current pattern.

constantly scrolling down to see the end of notes

Not really, because basically it would offer the same display surface as now; in horizontal mode.

sharps and flats balancing on the thin dividing lines... The current style of the Piano View... is an "exploded" keyboard view where all notes have equal importance visually---as they should.

Well, the OPTION offers you that, but for using the PianoRoll as notation
the PianoRoll's pattern must necessarily equal the actual keyboard pattern... or else you won't be able to visually gauge and transfer the distances between notes from the PianoRoll to your keyboard.
That means, the current PianoRoll pattern isn't suited for this purpose, due to it's visually incompatible pattern with the keyboard. The distances between notes are different from the distances of the actual keys on the keyboard... That's the point.
The great advantage of it all is the logically arranged notation pattern over conventional notation, which is (illogical) very hard to learn and requires years of practice, whereas my proposed pattern allow laymen to immeadiately recognize which notes depict which key on the keyboard. Conventional notation doesn't offer us this advantage. Most hobby musicians don't aim for a musicianship...
[image] [/image]

This is how my proposed pattern OPTION should look to mirror the keyboard (of course the 3-line color should be less intense as to highlight the notes):

I hope this clarifies your concerns... Regards, jjj

JJ, it's great to see someone enthused and passionate about an idea they like.

I tried to look at your new jpg image, but pop-ups jammed my computer up and I had to shut Explorer down, now I'm back to say--um--that was unfortunate. So I haven't seen your new picture.

But, despite your strong beliefs that your proposed Piano View change is superior, based on what you've described, I am completely baffled and mystified. I've visualized what it would be like to do the intensive editing of MIDI data that I do in Piano View, and it would be clumsy and impractical in your version.

Dealing with the time line of music would be very awkward in this version, if not impossible, as compared to the logical horizontal flow currently being used. Saying that it would help new people understand how notes are laid out on a piano is so--unimportant compared with the purpose of Piano View in the first place, which is to edit a MIDI performance.

SO, I've done by best to follow your idea. Please let's refrain from saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your concept isn't "getting it." I get it---and my humble opinion, obviously one shared by the designers of sequencing software, is that your idea--is a waste of time and actually wouldn't work.--(I'm still trying to picture dealing with the time line--one window of notes appears, lengths unnaturally shortened, and then--what?--a new window of the next page pops up--?--)

Thanks for the energy though. Go make some good music!

Randy
rbowser

Thanking you for the kind words...
Surprise, surprise! >>> I just got an email from a friend showing me a PianoRoll pattern from MasterWorks, which is almost what I'm after... (Beside: Jeeze, I so often reinvented the wheel! It's the same with the piped vacuum system I thought I invented, only to discover that commercial units are available... Still mine is cheaper and better, because I can insert any vacuum cleaner: not depending on their monopoly service. Also I pride myself having thought it up myself.) Same here, I'm not angry at MasterWorks; shows that they are pretty spot on. Here's a picture of it:

[image] [/image]
Oh, it came out nicely... I inserted the connection lines for easier reading.

JJ, it's been an interesting thread. I think it's very true that people tend to prefer what they're used to, and in the case of software, what they've already learned.

So even though I don't see how this re-configured Piano Roll would be helpful, I'll admit that I couldn't really know until I sat down and worked with it. I remember much preferring the Staff View when I started using musical software programs, then I ended up better understanding the Piano Roll until it's now an indispensable tool I couldn't live without.

Maybe I found a different "Master Works" when I Googled it, but what I came up with featured a screen shot of the program with the Piano Roll in the same old horizontal layout, as in Cakewalk:

Master Works screen shot

ANyway--I look forward to hearing your music, now that we've met you as a very clever, enthusiastic guy here on the Forum.

Randy
rbowser

Sorry, Randy, I thought I mentioned it (but didn't) that I turned the picture around... 'my way', but the rest is as MasterWorks put it, appart from those few connection lines I inserted for faster reading.
As mentioned, it should be an OPTION; not changing the piano roll pattern, people got used to.
Also the timing would be unimportant, because it only limits the page space. Once the playing of the right notes is practiced, the user already knows how the song should sound.

On a second thought, I don't think it's not really necessary to read the notes from top to down, because one gets used to gauge and transfer the visible distances between notes to the keybard either way. Also it would shorten the page as the monitor is shorter in heights.

Actually, all I wanted to point out is... that the piano roll pattern could be used to learn the notation of a new song and so, improve on musical skillls. For decades I used to play the accordion by ear, because I found traditional notation too complicated and illogical. Yet, playing by ear one tends to fall into the same playing patterns, whereas playing 'programmed music' (i.e. notation) one can notably improve one's playing skills. Computers now offer us this chance; so, let's grab it! :)

Lol---OH, OK--Right, you, um, kind of neglected to point out that you had turned the picture around. In fact, you were saying you were happy to see that a company, Master Works, had designed a Piano Roll as per your preference.

I understand that MIDI and software can be a learning tool for people, and there have been various educational programs, sometimes coupled with special keyboards for that purpose.

But a professional DAW program, like Sonar, is made for people who have graduated from elementary school of music--and that's as it should be. We don't demand that other programs, be rudimentary in their approaches just so beginners will feel at home. In fact, when we pay some good money for a program because it's a professional piece of software--we rather expect it to be something beginners Wouldn't be able to use.

For a Piano Roll in a sequencing program to not display the length of notes would render it pointless. Editing the duration of notes is crucial to pro level MIDI editing. In doing orchestral emulations, like I do, it's critical that I see that notes are only barely overlapping in Legato passages, for instance--a bit too much and the effect is unnatural. I couldn't do that kind of editing in this new version of PV.

Equally important, one needs to see the various MIDI controller data displayed constantly in association with the notes. You MUst see the Velocity value of every single note at all times. I can zoom out and see an entire project on the screen, look at its controller #11 curve, to make sure there aren't passages with too little or too much of the controller. Etc.

I understand you're saying to turn the Piano View at a different angle could be an option, and that the proposed view would be mostly for people learning keyboards and notation. I think they would still have problem with seeing the flow of music beyond a measure or two at a time, and would be handicapped once they needed to switch back to the more useful and functional view that already exists.

If this version was implemented in a beginner's "Let's Play MUSIC!" kind of package--fine---it just wouldn't belong in pro recording programs like Sonar, IMHO.

Randy
rbowser

I tell you the truth: The problem with me is that I never held much of music theory; I would call myself rather a 'natural musician'. Thus far I never felt compelled to study even the basics of it. It was just in me. I performed with world renown musicians and they failed to notice that my music education consisted of a merely visit to the crématoire, instead the conservatoire... :)
Yet, when it comes to playing a keyboard instrument that's where I see the need to get into 'musical mathematics' or notation.
Still, I refuse to learn the rudiment of that awkward traditional notation. It's just boring! Just, because someone started the 5 line notation pattern and than added # and b to indicate half tunes, I have to struggle to put up with it.
Klavarscribo is probably what I have to look at, albeit I was looking for something simpler, as mentioned all along.
Basically, I love the idea of transferring the distances between notes to the keyboard.
I reckon that can only be the most logical way to go about in music notation. It's virtually wysiwyg of notation!
On the other hand I can understand people, who wasted years of mastering traditional notation; they wouldn't want to give it away... even you offer them the best notation. That's how this awkward, traditional notation is perpetuated.
I'm not stuck up like that; always ready for innovation and progress! How about you? You sound like it, but... maybe you are forced to rather conform to business considerations or other priorities? Not so with me. I apply my musical intuition creatively in a natural way, unhampered by marketing pressures etc. I even turned down various offers for that same reason. Yes, there was a time I aspired for stardom. I went to NY and about to form a band, but then I met a wonderful lady and decided to form a lasting, wonderful relationship, instead ... and now landed in Chile for good. In NYC I was invited by the club of NY-rock musos and five rock- bands offered me their (lots of greenbacks) schedules and employment. Sadly, it wasn't that kind of 'noise' I was keen to perform.
I still am musically very much excitable and active. I guess that won't ever change, but now I gotten very exigent/ demanding in the kind of music I call ‘good music’.
Don’t take my word; rather go to my website (http://jdrinda.tripod.com) and down in the same page and click onto: To enjoy longer samples, click HERE.
Albeit I cannot guarantee you that you’ll enjoy this kind of music… but hey, I happen to call it ‘good music’, because it's atistically demading I perform it with heart & soul. I suppose what each of us calls ‘good music’ is a complicated matter and easily offends, yet still… honesty is required. To choose my backing music, I went to sound libraries and took some 15 CD’s with me home, from which I usually only selected 1 or 2 pieces; not often non. The worst was that several orchestras performed the same piece. Then I had the task to select the best recording. Hence, my preference goes to music enjoyable to listen to. Most of the music is only challenging for the musicians; sorry, not my kind. Trusting you enjoyed my entertainment... jjj

Interesting stuff JJ.

I'd wager that the majority of Cakewalk users are self taught also. Nothing wrong with that.
20th and 21st century songs can be picked up by ear, and you can come up with your versions of them.

The main advantage of being able to read music is that the whole great history of music is there for you to explore. Nobody is able to play classical music by ear--not all the intricate, sometimes incredible orchestrations that the composers used.

So go to the Songs forum and post something. It's fun to share our music over there.

Randy
rbowser

Sorry, I won't be able to do it all... because I'm rather busy to get my contentment fine-tuned. That's why I came here to try to convince equal-minded musos of the need for some logical notation, which anyone can read without a doctorate…
Unfortunately, it’s not to be and so, my mission of finding such a notation continues. Now I wrote a letter to the owner of MusicMasterWorks. If that fails I’ll have investigate what Klavarscribo’s free software offers. One way or the other I’ll have to progress. It was nice communicating with you… Kind Regards, jjj

Readable Piano Roll notation
http://www.white52black36.com
http://white52black36.com/piano%20roll%20vs%20grand%20staff.htm

I suppose nobody 'has' to learn to read music, but it's worth the small effort required to learn. There really is logical elegance to the system. It's not as arbitrary as it may seem at a glance. As a practical matter I can write much much faster with a notation program than I can with any company's piano roll implementation. By the way, learning to read music isn't like learning to read Latin. You could learn to read music in a weekend.

Personally I got completely lost early on in this thread.......................but! The great news is that Randy Bowser is back in town so look out Cakewalkers!
Gareth

Sadly, Randy's last post in this thread was dated 10/15/2006.

I've heard from Randy fairly recently. He's currently busy trying to get his musical staged.

Re: Piano Roll. I have only the most rudimentary keyboard skills. It would be easier for me, as a rookie, to compose as though I were sitting at the piano, with the keys horizontal. But I can see Randy's point about following the flow of music while it's playing. How about a toggle? I compose on horizontal keys, playback on vertical keys. I mean, as long as you're redesigning the application.
Mark

Curses! Didn't check the date