Helpful Replyvery quiet playback

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EightMilesHigh
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2014/10/16 22:38:48 (permalink)

very quiet playback

I just installed trusty Sonar 6 on my new computer, which has Windows 8.1.
 
I attempt to play back sound in Sonar, and the volume alternates from normal about half the time, to extremely quiet the rest of the time. I have a Realtek High Definition Audio Soundcard, and a USB Audiobox interface. Lately it has just been really quiet.
 
In the past, by changing the default playback device back and forth on Windows, the sound would eventually come back as normal, but this no longer seems to work. I switch between the outputs of both, and in each instance, the sound is very quiet when played back inside Sonar. On the other hand, when I play music or watch videos outside of sonar, the volume is normal.
 
I seem to be having the same issue described in the below 2008 thread, but the user just said "problem solved" and never commented on what the actual solution was.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/No-audio-playback-anymore-s-m1361733.aspx
 
Like her, I also have to use the MME Driver modes.
 
Any suggestions are welcome, this sure has been frustrating. No mixing gets done this way. Thanks.
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johnnyV
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/16 23:41:42 (permalink)
First, Sonar X3 is real inexpensive for registered owners of older versions. Your only going to have problems running software designed for a much older 32 bit OS on windows 8.1 64 bit.
For under $50 you can upgrade, If the deal is still on. 
Secondly Sonar needs you to use a proper audio interface and ASIO drivers. Anything else is crippling. Audio interfaces start at $100. Make sure it has proper ASIO drivers and avoid products that say "doesn't need drivers" Those rarely work with Sonar.

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EightMilesHigh
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/16 23:58:35 (permalink)
Thanks for the reply, but I swear, this is probably something easy, but I just haven't figured out what. Is there some setting inside Sonar?
 
At this point, I'd prefer not to upgrade, though it is a future possibility. I just really like the older version, and know how to use it. (This software has the possibility of 32 or 64 bit, btw) I have an album 80% done, and changing my software now will mean it will probably take me two more years to finish, which is not an option. I don't know what the issue is with my interface? That doesn't seem to be the problem. Also, I have had the fewest amount of dropouts on this computer. This playback issue is the only one I've had in three months.
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EightMilesHigh
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 00:03:32 (permalink)
It also may be something in windows, for all I know...
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robert_e_bone
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 01:45:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby EightMilesHigh 2014/10/17 10:43:13
I don't really have enough information yet to really do much of an analysis of your current issue with volume, but I thought I would toss out an idea to you.
 
If you were to pick up an upgrade copy of X3 - whatever flavor of it you would like, or be able to afford, you could install it on your computer and it would cheerfully and happily co-exist with your older version of Sonar.
 
All kinds of folks in the forums have multiple versions of Sonar installed, and can open each one as desired without disturbing any of the other Sonar installations present on their computer, and doing this works fine.
 
I have Sonar X1 Producer, X2 Producer, and X3 producer installed currently on my computer, and I can open any of them just fine, without causing any problems for the one I opened, or the other installed ones.
 
Sometimes, third-party things go away, from one version of Sonar to the next.  This happened from X2 to X3, with V-Vocal being dropped in X3 - and it was replaced with another product called Melodyne.  Since V-Vocal was installed in the base install of X2, X2 is needed to be kept on the computer in order to retain access to V-Vocal.  So, lots of folks kept X2, for that very reason, since they had projects that had V-Vocal in them, and they wanted to keep access to it.
 
I have a general rule of thumb I follow for myself, which is that I finish projects started with a version of Sonar, with the same version of Sonar, and start new projects in the newer version.  This is a choice I made for myself, not any requirement, but I simply never have problems opening older projects, because I always use the same Sonar version the older project was created in.
 
SOOOO, sorry for the lengthy speech that had nothing whatsoever to do with your issue - I just thought it was important that you were made aware that getting any new version of Sonar would not mean having to remove a prior version - they can all live nicely together on your computer, and they don't take up much room to do so. :)
 
As far as your volume issues go, I would like to see if I could help you figure this out, but to do so I would like you to supply a whole bunch of additional information, such as all of the relevant settings in Sonar, your Driver Mode, project details, Windows Default Audio Device, your Sonar project details, interface model and driver versions, firmware version of your audio interface, if you can find it, pretty much any information about your system that could be part of the audio setup and processing on your system.
 
Since others are not having this particular issue - there are no widely reported threads about this occurring on other folks's computers, this means it is likely something particular to your setup/settings, and therefore solvable.
 
In addition, is your Windows Update maintenance up to date?
 
Thanks - I look forward to trying to help you work through this issue, and will keep an eye out for your posting more information about your system and the various settings and such.
 
Bob Bone
 

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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 02:18:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby EightMilesHigh 2014/10/17 10:43:03
Audiobox seems to be a quite decent interface/soundcard, according to Presonus' site. First thing you should do is make sure that you don't use your Realtek for anything in SONAR. Remove it from all the boxes in Options-dialogue.
Audiobox supports ASIO, which is the most recommendable driver, but for some reason they don't say if the drivers offered for download at Presonus' site are ASIO or not. Anyway, my guess is that you should download and use those drivers as they're specifically designed for Audiobox (which, unfortunately, doesn't guarantee anything).
 
In the linked thread  the OP writes the solution was in "stereo-mono-dooberie". Whatever it means, Perhaps something with panning laws or recording single input on stereo track or...we'll never know.
 
When you play back tracks in SONAR, do they all go through Master bus (the recommended procedure)? Doing so you can be sure that you are actually in control of all the tracks. outputs
 
We would need a more precise description of the symptoms and how you are doing things.
 
How do the waveforms look on tracks? What kind of readings do the meters on Master bus and the tracks give.
When the volume goes down, do you also see the change in the meters?
You see, the tracks volume is actually not what you hear (because you may simply have Windows mixers volume up or down or something), but what the dB's on the meters tell you. Is there automation on the tracks? How are you monitoring?

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ampfixer
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 03:27:53 (permalink)
Indeed, onboard sound can mess things up big time. +1

Regards, John 
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EightMilesHigh
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 10:51:18 (permalink)
I will upgrade at some point, but because of where I am in this project, doing so now just feels like giving up. That’s good to know about the versions not cancelling each other out though, thanks.
 
As soon as I get home, I will pull more information about the Audiobox and its drivers, as that is worth exploring. I do know that every time I’ve tried to switch on ASIO within Sonar (with or without the Audiobox plugged in), I’ve gotten no playback at all.
 
At present, I do not have the Audiobox plugged in. Under audio options, the playback timing master is the Realtek, as is the Record Timing Master. It used to be that I could get decent playback without the Audiobox, just listening through the laptop speakers. This was really convenient, as I could perform a number of “grunt work” operations in mixing that don’t require listening through stereo monitors. When the mood struck, I could then plug in the Audiobox, and listen through the monitors, continuing to make adjustments.
 
My driver mode is MME 32 bit as stated above. The windows default audio device, if I understand correctly, is the Realtek High Definition Audio Soundcard. However, in testing the issue, I have gone inside Sound in Windows, and when plugged in, switched on the Audiobox as the default. This used to result in a seamless transition, but no more, despite all the faders and volumes in Sonar indicating that the volume should be much louder than it is, the overall volume is barely audible.
 
Kalle Rantaaho
You see, the tracks volume is actually not what you hear (because you may simply have Windows mixers volume up or down or something), but what the dB's on the meters tell you. Is there automation on the tracks? How are you monitoring?



This is exactly right, and likely related to the problem. I’m wondering if Windows somehow sees audio tracks in Sonar as an external sound, and is reducing them by 80% or some arbitrary amount.
 
At present, here’s what I’m doing: I open up Sonar, and I immediately hear a loud and clear ding, indicating that I have no MIDI devices. Since I have no MIDI devices plugged in at the moment, this is understandable, and I close the box. This ding is at the regular volume of any typical Windows sounds – it isn’t reduced in any way. I then open up one of my projects (I’ve tried it with several) which have previously played at a much louder volume. Some of these have automation and eq, whereas other projects consist of ordinary tracks loaded in with no tweaking at all. For the one I have open now, the Master volume is peaking around -5.8, but the playback is extremely quiet. The individual tracks have sound on them also, and fluctuate in their readings. A lead vocal track, for example, fluctuates from nothing to about -4.
 
Perhaps some of these problems may have been brought on by my switching between the laptop speakers and the Audiobox, but I would think it should still work with no Audiobox. Is there any way to make this play back normally with no Audiobox through a more optimal setting in Windows?
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johnnyV
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 11:03:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby EightMilesHigh 2014/10/17 18:33:35
Sorry I did not see the audio box in your post ( late at night) 
Your issue will probably be that your trying to use both, so yes disable your on board while testing. You may or may not be able to have it co-exist with the Presonus ASIO drivers.
Sonar really works best in the ASIO environment and rarely works well with on board sound drivers. 
Very few of us will have windows sounds enabled at all as they can be super loud when heard through studio monitors. 
Forget your laptops sound system, don't use it. Use the Audio Box for everything Sonar. 
You should be able to disable the Realtech in device manager and then turn it back on when your need it for other stuff. 
Your time master needs to be the audio box and ASIO and everything will be fine. 
And I too liked Sonar 6 when I used it, nothing wrong with that, I didn't know it was 64 bit so that's good news. 

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robert_e_bone
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 12:23:40 (permalink)
Yup - many many folks set their Sonar computers to play No Windows Sounds.
 
Also, as posted above, the ASIO drivers for the Audiobox are likely the best choice for you.  I use a Presonus AudioBox 1818 VSL audio interface - several years now it seems, and it works great.  I mention that because their drivers are pretty stable and good, so we should be able to get your settings and such configured properly, and for you to get this volume issue resolved.
 
PLEASE do post additional information on your settings and such, so that we can actually help you.  Without that additional information, we are just shooting in the dark.  :)
 
Bob Bone
 

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Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
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EightMilesHigh
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/17 18:47:15 (permalink)
All, thanks for the replies. I am in the process of updating the drivers on my audiobox, which were quite old, doing every windows update, and I've also uninstalled Sonar. When all these things are done, I will reinstall Sonar, turn off Windows sounds, and attempt it in ASIO mode. I also found a program called ASIO4ALL which I may consider running if necessary. When all this is done, I'll come back and give an update.
 
Even though I liked the convenience of running the software with no interface, it may well have made things unstable. Here's to hoping that was all it was.
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57Gregy
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/18 09:40:07 (permalink)
"I also found a program called ASIO4ALL which I may consider running if necessary"
 
Don't do that. ASIO4All is just a wrapper for the WDM driver to make it look like an ASIO driver to Windows. The Presonus ASIO driver will perform much better, and true ASIO drivers won't work when ASIO4All is installed.
If you haven't downloaded ASIO4All yet, don't. You'll just end up having to remove it to get the Presonus driver to work.

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tlw
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Re: very quiet playback 2014/10/18 09:53:04 (permalink)
Avoid ASIO4ALL if at all possible. If the Audiobox has its' own drivers use them in preference. ASIO4ALL is a work-around that attempts to compensate for the lack of a manufacturer's ASIO driver for on-board cards such as the Realtek. It works well for some people but can be very difficult to configure and often causes as many problems as it can solve. It also seems to conflict with other ASIO drivers at times and can be very difficult to remove.

One thing might be worth checking in Sonar. The master bus should be set to output to the audio interface, and the hardware has a bus-like meter/volume section in Sonar. Check where the volume slider on that is set and that routing is correct.

Go into Windows control panel/sound and disable all system sounds. Then ensure the Window's volume control isn't set too low. Also, if you only have the one sound card installed, check that the Windows default sound card settings are not only pointing at it but are pointing at the right ins and outs. Any incorrect settings here can cause problems. In Sonar's preferences try ticking the "share audio drivers with other programs" box, or unticking it if it is ticked. It might be that while you are using Sonar Windows seizes control of the sound card for its own purposes and resets the volume/bit depth/sample rate then Sonar fails to reset them to suit Sonar once Windows releases the driver, or vice versa. Another possibility is that Windows is pointed at one set of ins/outs on the card and Donar at another. If these are set to different volumes in the Windows sound mixer, again possible problems.

As for drivers, you need if at all possible to be using drivers that match the version of Windows you are using. Win 8 drivers and some Win 7 will generally work on 8.1, though maybe not optimally. Go further back than Win7 and all bets are off.

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