joey90405
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what is a limiter
hi everyone, I have a question, what I need to do is make all the tracks (songs) on a project have the same relative volume. you know how sometimes if one plays a song and the next song starts too loud or too soft. me thinks I need to use a limiter, however I have no idea how it works or even if I have one in X-2.
does anyone have a suggestion.
thanks
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John
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/15 18:30:31
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Simply put a limiter prevents audio from going above a certain level set by the user.
What you want to do is not limit per se but have the same RMS level from song to song. Limiting can help prevent peaks from going over 0 dB but it is also easy to abuse. In the case you layout both compression and automation plus careful limiting will do what you want.
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dubdisciple
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/15 18:48:20
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You missed a very lively discussion about limiters recently. I hope I don't re-ignite it. A limiter is a compressor set to a very high ratio typically used to control peak levels more or less.
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Splat 
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/15 19:47:05
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musichoo
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/15 20:00:09
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☄ Helpfulby TomHelvey 2014/07/16 02:32:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBxw2Vc57u8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5K2RhXW0bMCakewalk's concrete limiter is very popular here among the folks at this forum. It is a separate purchase for 79 bucks. There are sale once in a while and the price would drop to +-50. It went down to 19 just 2 days ago. It is way more better sounding than boast11 that comes with X1,2,3. With Boost11 you will get some nasty side effects very quickly and as a general rule I would not boost more than 6db.
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TomHelvey
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/16 02:32:16
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^ +1
My default project template has a Concrete Limiter set to -0.1 db on the master and -2.0 db on the fader bus.
Well worth the investment if you tend to mix louder than everyone says you should.
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stevec
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/16 11:42:53
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It's also good for "less than ideal" track recordings that can't be re-recorded. I've used it in that capacity for live recordings where the bass track had a lot of peaks.
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tacman7
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/16 11:46:46
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The way I was told...
If you turn up the ratio of a compressor to 10 or above, you're limiting.
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CJaysMusic
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/16 13:16:27
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dubdisciple
You missed a very lively discussion about limiters recently. I hope I don't re-ignite it. A limiter is a compressor set to a very high ratio typically used to control peak levels more or less.
LOl, yea!! A limiter is a compressor with a ratio over 10:1. anything under 10:1 is compression and anything over 10:1 is limiting. A limiter is a tool that can harm your audio, when used wrong. Study, study and study all the things that a limiter and a compressor has. Like learn what the Ratio is, the Threshold is, the Attack is, the Release is, the knee and Auto gain and Gain are. All you need to do is learn what all these things do and you will learn how to use any limiter and any compressor. CJ
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ShellstaX
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/16 18:40:02
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I think what you might be after is something like HoRNet AutoGain or AutoGain Pro. Regularly very reasonably priced and what's more 40% sale for the rest of today. (Try/get the Pro - it's cheap enough ... and does a decent job (in my day of usage)). Perhaps more geared toward levelling within a track(?), but no reason why it couldn't be used on each track or more preferably on a common Bus enroute to Master. A "limiter" is about knocking off the peaks to avoid damaging equipment and your ears (usually incorporating compression to reduce the peaks and bring up the troughs). A "volume leveller" is about achieving a consistent volume.
post edited by ShellstaX - 2014/07/16 19:00:40
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Karyn
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 10:31:34
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tacman7
The way I was told...
If you turn up the ratio of a compressor to 10 or above, you're limiting.
At the risk of re-starting the "discussion", you were told wrong. A compressor with a ratio of 1000:1 is still a compressor... it may give a similar result to limiting and my be considered a limiter by some people but its NOT limiting... The output will still rise by 1db for every 1000db rise in input (sounds ridiculous, I know, but transients from drum hits and other percussive sounds will produce those sort of gradients). A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of the input...
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John
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 11:28:18
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Also most true limiters have a look ahead buffer to prevent intersample clipping. I don't know of a compressor that has a look ahead buffer. There may be some but I haven't come across any.
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WallyG
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 11:36:00
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Karyn
tacman7
The way I was told...
If you turn up the ratio of a compressor to 10 or above, you're limiting.
...A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of the input...
In that case is should be called a "clipper". If that is what is desired than just run the signal up to 0dBFS.. Walt
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John
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 11:44:01
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Well it is called a limiter already not a clipper.
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bitflipper
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 11:51:21
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Joey, all the answers above explain what a limiter is, but so far nobody's addressed your real question, which is how to balance loudness from one song to the next. A limiter does come into play, but the primary tool you'll need is actually a good meter. That will let you set how hard the limiter is driven and thereby adjust the perceived volume. A good place to start with metering is Voxengo SPAN. It's easy to use, it's free, it supports a widely-used standard for gauging levels called the K-system, and it's an excellent tool for adjusting loudness to whatever standard you choose. You can get more scientific with an EBU loudness meter, but I'd hold off on that for now. Get a copy of SPAN and insert it on the master bus, at the end of the chain after everything else. Put it into Mastering Mode, set the meter to K-14 and adjust the input to the limiter until your levels are hovering around the 0 dB mark (which is actually 14 decibels below the real 0 dB, and that's the point of the K system). With your levels bouncing around the 0 dB mark, if your song is still too dynamic and/or not loud enough, add a bus compressor in front of the limiter. But if you can get the desired results without master bus compression, that's better.
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Grem
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 12:03:29
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CJaysMusic
Study, study and study all the things that a limiter and a compressor has. Like learn what the Ratio is, the Threshold is, the Attack is, the Release is, the knee and Auto gain and Gain are.
All you need to do is learn what all these things do and you will learn how to use any limiter and any compressor.
CJ
All I can add to this is search out resources such as books, online articles, and such for info to study. This is not something you will grasp correctly first go around.
Grem
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ShellstaX
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 13:05:03
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bitflipper
... but so far nobody's addressed your real question, which is how to balance loudness from one song to the next.
Ummm ... I thought I had a crack :). Yes - your answer is more complete and getting to the lower level. @bitflipper - I see you've posted on the HoRNet AutoGain (Pro) before ... What are your thoughts of it (and/or similar) as a means of accomplishing what @Joey's after? (I have no affiliation to HoRNet - just purchased it in their sale yesterday (now over)).
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John
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 13:32:11
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bitflipper
Joey, all the answers above explain what a limiter is, but so far nobody's addressed your real question, which is how to balance loudness from one song to the next. A limiter does come into play, but the primary tool you'll need is actually a good meter. That will let you set how hard the limiter is driven and thereby adjust the perceived volume.
A good place to start with metering is Voxengo SPAN. It's easy to use, it's free, it supports a widely-used standard for gauging levels called the K-system, and it's an excellent tool for adjusting loudness to whatever standard you choose.
You can get more scientific with an EBU loudness meter, but I'd hold off on that for now. Get a copy of SPAN and insert it on the master bus, at the end of the chain after everything else. Put it into Mastering Mode, set the meter to K-14 and adjust the input to the limiter until your levels are hovering around the 0 dB mark (which is actually 14 decibels below the real 0 dB, and that's the point of the K system).
With your levels bouncing around the 0 dB mark, if your song is still too dynamic and/or not loud enough, add a bus compressor in front of the limiter. But if you can get the desired results without master bus compression, that's better.
Well perhaps you missed my answer post # 2?
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CJaysMusic
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 14:19:32
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but so far nobody's addressed your real question, which is how to balance loudness from one song to the next Its done with your ears.
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konradh
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 16:24:12
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Sort of on topic and sort of not:
There is a new software product called Perception that seems interesting. The concept is that it allows you to play a mix with and without your master bus effects and with comparable **perceived** volume. In other words, when you turn the effects off, Perception uses a sophisticated algorithm to keep the perceived volume consistent so you can hear what your effects (e.g., compression, master bus EQ) are doing to your mix without the confusion of volume changes. This can also be used on individual tracks.
That is an oversimplified explanation but hopefully gets the basic concept across. I imagine mastering engineers and artists who master their own work would find this very useful.
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WallyG
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 16:38:45
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John
Well it is called a limiter already not a clipper.
I was referring to a previous post "A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of the input...". Since a real limiter cannot perform this function, (there is only some finite gain reduction possible), then the only way to achieve this is to "clip" the signal by either putting it through an amplifier and driving it to compliance or in the digital world, by running out of headroom (i.e. 0dBFS). I was being cute with the word "Clipper" since the signal IS clipped. Walt
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John
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 17:10:28
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WallyG
John
Well it is called a limiter already not a clipper.
I was referring to a previous post "A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of the input...". Since a real limiter cannot perform this function, (there is only some finite gain reduction possible), then the only way to achieve this is to "clip" the signal by either putting it through an amplifier and driving it to compliance or in the digital world, by running out of headroom (i.e. 0dBFS). I was being cute with the word "Clipper" since the signal IS clipped.
Walt
I still don't understand what you are talking about. Sorry.
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WallyG
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 18:32:18
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John
WallyG
John
Well it is called a limiter already not a clipper.
I was referring to a previous post "A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of the input...". Since a real limiter cannot perform this function, (there is only some finite gain reduction possible), then the only way to achieve this is to "clip" the signal by either putting it through an amplifier and driving it to compliance or in the digital world, by running out of headroom (i.e. 0dBFS). I was being cute with the word "Clipper" since the signal IS clipped.
Walt
I still don't understand what you are talking about. Sorry.
Sorry, guess I'm not explaining it well. A limiter with a finite ratio, let's say 1000:1 will still allow the signal to rise above the threshold albeit by a small amount. Some Limiters offer an option of inf:1. I'm an Analog Circuit Designer and if someone asked me to design an analog limiter with a ratio of inf:1, I'd explain that it would require a gain reduction amplifier with infinite attenuation and I haven't figured out how to do that one... In the digital realm, it's easier since your just dealing with numbers (the software engineers are smiling) and once you reach a threshold you just keep the signal at that desired threshold. The basic point I was trying to make was that once you have solid wall "limiter" (i.e. Titanium Limiter), you are cutting off (clipping) the tops of the waveform adding distortion, ie worst case converting a sine wave into a square wave, like the old back-back diode clippers used in early fuzz boxes. You're still distorting the signal with any limiter, but with lower ratios, and trying to just lower the level of the peaks, you can' really hear it. At least these old tired ears can't... Hope this helped. Walt If you look at the waveforms of today's "loudness war" CDs, it looks as though someone took a pair of electronic scizzors and "clipped" off the tops and bottoms of the waveforms.
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John
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 19:00:43
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Well I routinely place CL on my master buss and though I try not to push it I have for testing and there is no, repeat, no distortion. You may be right with Boost 11 but not a good limiter like Concrete Limiter.
I also agree with you about maximizing loudness. I am adamantly opposed to it.
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Splat
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/17 19:21:12
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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ShellstaX
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/18 00:53:20
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Splat
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/18 01:08:35
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Yup done that as well and it's excellent.... They are all good get a year groove3 pass, money worth spending! I try to do a tutorial every 2 to 3 weeks myself, I never stop learning..
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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dubdisciple
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Re: what is a limiter
2014/07/18 02:17:44
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A limiter is really "a device whose mystery is only exceeded by its power"- Totally Hot Chicks
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