Helpful Reply1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible?

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Nash
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2013/12/31 21:21:06 (permalink)

1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible?

Let's say I have a single MIDI drum track going into... say, Steven Slate Drums. Now, I want to layer the SSD kick with another sample I made with Kontakt. Is there a way to have this single MIDI drum track trigger MIDI for both SSD and Kontakt?
 
Currently I see no way to do this, and I am forced to do the following:
 
Select only the kick MIDI notes, paste to new MIDI track, set the output to Kontakt. So now I have 2 copies of the kick MIDI. That's kind of hacky.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2013/12/31 22:42:43 (permalink)
That is the only way I have ever been able to figure out how to do that sort of thing - I do it with layered keyboard sounds all the time, but it is usually easier for me, since I just copy whole clips rather than having to copy particular events.
 
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joden
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2013/12/31 23:22:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/01/01 12:02:44
Use the split note to track CAL  - this will auto place each separate note from the drum part to individual tracks, then you can route each track (in effect each drum instrument) to whatever vst you want to use :-) you can load two or three different drum vst's  if you like!
 
So from the top bar menu line select:
PROCESS > Run Cal  scroll down to Split Note to Tracks then select your source track - enter, then select the first destination track - enter and off you go :-)
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Kev999
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 01:57:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/01/01 12:03:25
Nash
...I want to layer the SSD kick with another sample I made with Kontakt. Is there a way to have this single MIDI drum track trigger MIDI for both SSD and Kontakt?



If you are using a drum map it is possible to map different notes to different softsynths.  You would still need to use 2 separate notes for the kick drum but they will at least be in the same midi track.

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Nash
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 11:45:52 (permalink)
So I take it that it's not possible then. The whole idea was to avoid having 2 separate MIDI tracks of the same instrument.
 
I'm fine with separating each drum as separate MIDI tracks (kick, snare, toms, cymbals etc all on separate MIDI tracks), in fact it's what I do anyway (on larger projects).
 
But if I want to layer the kick using both SSD and Kontakt (for example), or layer snares from 3 different VSTis, I'd have to create many copies of the same thing.
 
If at a later time I need to edit the kick pattern, I'd have to delete all of the extra copies, and leave behind only 1 copy, do the edits, the re-copy it to the other layers. This has the disadvantage of me not being able to hear the final composite layered sound when I click on the notes in the PRV because I am only able to work on 1 kick while editing.
 
I am aware of "copy as linked clips" but again I feel this is kind of unnecessary (and might be prone to user errors as far as clip management goes, ALSO this still exhibits the problem where I cannot hear the final layered sound while doing this, clicking on the note in the PRV will only play the sound of the currently selected MIDI track), where as a "MIDI Send" of sorts would make much more sense.
 
Thanks anyway.
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 11:58:45 (permalink)
Nash
Let's say I have a single MIDI drum track going into... say, Steven Slate Drums. Now, I want to layer the SSD kick with another sample I made with Kontakt. Is there a way to have this single MIDI drum track trigger MIDI for both SSD and Kontakt?



If you have the Steven Slate Drums library for Kontakt, create a multi that loads your Kontakt drum sample and the Steve Slate sounds as separate instruments. Then you can set them both to the same MIDI channel and respond to the same notes.
 
Layering within a multi-timbral instrument is the simplest way to layer parts. This assumes the part can be identical for both tracks, but that doesn't seem like it would be a problem for you.

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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 12:02:44 (permalink)
Ahhh...my bad, I misunderstood. Yes it's a pity CW does not seem to allow multiple "outs" from a single MIDI track...maybe using some form of virtual midi router (LoopMidi et al) and a Rewire facility perhaps?
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scook
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 12:03:23 (permalink)
Maybe starting here could provide a solution
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 13:34:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Nash 2014/01/04 09:41:46
You would be able to do this if you had a VSTi that simply passes MIDI events straight through. In that case the VSTi's output can be selected as input to multiple MIDI tracks.
 
The plugin I used to demo the VSTi output bugs can probably be used for that (it has a mode to simply pass MIDI events out again), however it is 32-bit only. You can download it here.
 
I'm sure there has to be other VSTi plugins that can do that. If not I might consider creating a simple VSTi plugin (32 and 64 bit) for just that purpose if there is enough interest.
 
EDIT: I just confirmed that it works with the simple VSTi from that link (using Sonar 64-bit). I was able to add the VSTi and put a MIDI clip on its MIDI track. Then I added SI-String Section and SI-Electric Piano and set both's input to the "Sonar MIDI Bugs" plugin. You have to turn Midi Echo on on both tracks. When I played it back, both soft synths played the MIDI clip.
post edited by SilkTone - 2014/01/01 13:44:24

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Kev999
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 17:40:15 (permalink)
joden
Yes it's a pity CW does not seem to allow multiple "outs" from a single MIDI track...



Yes it's a pity.  There was a lot of discussion on this subject a few years ago.  Several feature requests were submitted to Cakewalk but nothing ever became of it.

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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 18:09:08 (permalink)
Does anyone know if Sonar supports all features of VST 3? If so I can make a VST 3 plugin that can be used to easily route the MIDI to multiple tracks. I played with my previous VST 2 plugin that passes MIDI through but was just reading about the VST 3 spec. It might make more sense to just go that route since it provides more features like multiple MIDI inputs (and outputs?) which might open up some additional MIDI routing options.
 
EDIT: So it seems VST 3 does support multiple MIDI inputs and outputs. I wonder if this can be used to create some sort of MIDI patchbay inside a single VST. That should help work around the limited Sonar MIDI routing options until CW can add this directly to Sonar. Such a plugin should be relatively straightforward to create.
post edited by SilkTone - 2014/01/01 18:18:19

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scook
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 18:29:31 (permalink)
I do not believe the subset of VST3 implemented by SONAR supports multiport instruments. There are a few threads about it followed by comments like this but I have not found a specific discussion of outputs
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SilkTone
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 20:17:37 (permalink)
I'm in the process of trying to modify one of the VST 3 samples to see if Sonar even supports passing MIDI through.
 
All of the default sample Steinberg VST3 plugins have the "Enable MIDI Output" disabled in Sonar. This could either be due to Sonar not supporting this at all, or none of the VST3 sample plugins actually support sending MIDI events out (most likely).
 
I searched around on KVR's plugin database but was not able to find anything resembling a plugin that can simply pass MIDI events through. Something like a MIDI filter or "MIDI patchbay", but setting it to pass all events unchanged should work.

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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 20:53:51 (permalink)
What's all this talk about SONAR not being able to drive 2 synths from 1 MIDI track? I do it often, usually to beef up a kick drum's low end, to layer a punchy bass over a smoother one, or to create complex multi-layered pads. It's quick and easy.
 
The confusion is probably that SONAR doesn't show it as 2 outputs from 1 track, but rather displays the second output as if it was a separate track. But it isn't really, not if you link the tracks. There's just one MIDI track and all the data is read from it.
 
The second "track" is a convenient artifice, and exists so that you have greater flexibility than if you could only add another output like you do with aux sends. By giving you a whole separate virtual track, you're not only able to route it to any instrument you like, but also transpose it, set its volume and pan, change its MIDI channel, offset its velocity, even mute parts of it. It's brilliant.


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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 21:08:03 (permalink)
bitflipper
...not if you link the tracks. There's just one MIDI track and all the data is read from it...
The second "track" is a convenient artifice...



I have used that method, i.e. make a linked copy of the midi track, but I found that after a bit of editing it kept losing the link and I kept having to create it again.  I gave up on it in the end.  But that was back when I was using Sonar 6 and I haven't tried it lately.

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SilkTone
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 21:15:19 (permalink)
bitflipper



Where does the 2nd output show up? I'm not sure I follow...

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Paul P
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/01 23:02:36 (permalink)
SilkTone
 
Where does the 2nd output show up? I'm not sure I follow...




(I just tried this)
 
I don't think there's any automatic way of setting this up.
You have to create a second midi track, set options/drag and drop options to copy entire clips as linked, then copy the clip(s) to the new track.
 
From that point on, everything you do to the midi in a clip gets reflected in the copy.
 
So the second output is off the second midi track.
 
Thanks bitflipper for the tip.
 
 

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Nash
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/04 09:42:50 (permalink)
I have already wrote in one of my previous posts above about how I am aware of linked clips and why I don't think it's a viable solution. Kev999 worded it better than I could (after spending some time editing, sometimes the clips just don't link correctly anymore, weird bug. Also the behavior of adding new notes AFTER linking seems to be unstable and unreliable). Also the fact the clips are linked doesn't change the fact that if I click on notes on the PRV in the original kick, the linked copy will not play together so I am not hearing the final composite. I can only hear the final sound when the project actually PLAYS, in other words; not when I'm EDITING.
 
SilkTone: I am very interested in this plugin you're trying to take a crack at. Let me know if you need me to do any rigorous testing.
post edited by Nash - 2014/01/04 09:51:17
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SilkTone
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/04 12:28:51 (permalink)
Nash, OK I'll take a stab at it. I modified the one I linked to above by removing all extraneous controls and code (so it simply passes through all MIDI events) and compiling it for 64-bit. But it seems to have some issues on 64-bit, so I'll try and see what the deal is there.
 
As mentioned above, if you want to do a proof-of-concept you can actually use the plugin linked to above in either Sonar 32-bit or 64-bit and just leave all settings at their defaults. At least that way you can see if it does what you need until I can sort out the 64-bit version.

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SilkTone
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Re: 1 MIDI track -> multiple VSTI's possible? 2014/01/04 14:49:31 (permalink)
You can try this plugin here. It called "MIDI Passthrough" and is a 64-bit VST plugin that simply passes MIDI events straight through.
 
To use:
  1. Add it as a VST instrument with a MIDI and an Audio track.
  2. Ensure it's "Enable MIDI Output" is selected.
  3. Use it as an input to multiple other MIDI tracks.
  4. On the other tracks using this as an input, make sure to set Input Echo = ON.
  5. Make sure to set the MIDI passthrough track's input to something other than OMNI-All.
Any MIDI events on the MIDI Passthrough MIDI track will now appear on all other tracks that have it selected as an input.
 
While CW has fixed some of the most serious bugs related to VSTi MIDI output, there still seems to be some weird issues. For instance:
  1. I noticed that sometimes when clicking on different MIDI tracks, MIDI events from unrelated MIDI tracks will still briefly appear on the wrong tracks. This will manifest as instruments playing MIDI events that are not routed to those instruments.
  2. When selecting the MIDI Passthrough MIDI output as an input to another track, Sonar does not actually select that as the MIDI input, but still has OMNI-All selected as the input (even though it shows the input you selected). You have to first select "None" again and then again select the output from the passthrough VSTi. I mentioned this bug here.
 
Let me know if you run into any problems.

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