ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry

despite you constantly wanting to make this personal, it's not. I'm sure you are a fine fellow and I have nothing against you personally. But, since this isn't the DAW Salesmen Forum, I'm entitled to offer my own opinion/advice. Sorry if it hurts your pride/profits. But I am more concerned for my fellow user than salesmen.

"Sandman" (since you're the self-appointed forum moderator)... show me where I once advertised or even offered my services?
The closest you'll find is that I get referals from clients... who are sharing their opinions/experiences.
If that bothers you... and doesn't fit into your ultuistic ideology... please get over *yourself*.
You can freely choose to read my posts (or not)... and you can also freely choose to *not* have any association with we me/studiocat/etc.
I don't force myself on anyone. I don't SPAM anyone. I don't even send out sales information to existing clients.

I've been a Cakewalk forum participant since the CompuServe days.
Over those years I've maintained a very good reputation.
That speaks for itself.
Over the years, I've shared a lot of information... and helped a lot of folks. I continue to do so...
Note: I don't freely share everything, because that is how I make my living.
There's nothing wrong with making a legit living. If your clients are happy, it's a win/win situation.
I ended up building DAWs, initially, because I had many folks asking me to do it.
My "business" was literally born of these forums. To accuse me of preying on them is rediculous.

As to being over-priced:
I think Pro Athletes are over-priced.
If I knew what you did for a living, I might think you were over-priced.
In your career, I'm sure you expect to get fair market value for your work.
Well... take my experience/reputation... compare to equally spec'd competitors.
My pay certainly isn't at the higher end of the spectrum...

BTW, If you have the knowlege/skills, it's cheaper to:
- Make your lunch/dinner
- Make your cloths
- Repair your car
- Clean your teeth
- Diagnose/treat your medical conditions
- Clean your carpet
- Build/repair your house
- Make/repair your shoes
- Maintain your lawn/trees
- Build/Repair your computers
- etc

Ironically, you'll find businesses doing all the above.

who are you trying to convince man? Prospective clients? The above is obvious. i pay someone to do my pool. $80 a month. I think it's a lot to pay for that, but doing it myself is too much of a pain. However, if he wanted $500 a month, i'd say screw it and do it myself. Just like my computers. It's too easy to do it myself. I would like to pay someone $700, and in particular a daw 'expert' to do it for me. But It's just not worth it. In my opinion. maybe $200 tops, in my opinion. Stop derailing the OP.

I build my own DAWS cause I like to tinker and save some money.
There are plenty of people who don't...and some who shouldn't build there own.
I've been on this forum a long time ...so has Jim, and Sandman it appears.
Jim has always handled his online persona with the utmost courtesy and professionalism, IMO.
I'll probably never be a customer of his, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to those that need his services...
and there are some who do need it.

Need parts for amazing audi daw? Just check my signature - works like a charm and very stable!

ORIGINAL: RLD

I build my own DAWS cause I like to tinker and save some money.
There are plenty of people who don't...and some who shouldn't build there own.
I've been on this forum a long time ...so has Jim, and Sandman it appears.
Jim has always handled his online persona with the utmost courtesy and professionalism, IMO.
I'll probably never be a customer of his, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to those that need his services...
and there are some who do need it.

If I could afford it,I would definitely have some one build me a powerful ready to go audio recording system, a real Killer.

Hi guys,

I rarely post on these forums, but do enjoy the wealth of information provided. I seldom feel I can offer anything someone else doesn't have more/better/cooler experience with, so I try to avoid anything except a PM or small comment about my personnal experiences. However this topic really drives me crazy.

We are all talking about the same thing....Cost Benefit Analysis. We should use it for more of our life decisions, but that's another off topic discussion.

Each of us has our own value system for money, time, etc and because of that we all have SLIGHTLY different views of stuff like this.

When I was younger, single, and had only one or two hobbies, I used to berate friends for "paying good money for an oil change". It was neither difficult to learn to do, not took too much time, and besides "working on your car is fun!". Hell I rebuilt engines and raced my car on the weekend. Well, I can't tell you the last time I changed my own oil. Why?

The "fun" aspect and cost savings doesn't outweigh the time/effort/PITA I view it now. I'm older (much), work a demanding (but highly rewarding) job, have a wife and wonderful daughter, and currently and unfortunately two very ill parents. The trade off isn't worth it.

It's the same thing with any service industry. Should an actor make 20 million dollars for a staring in a film? I'd say NO WAY! My friend, who is a Director/Screenwriter with major motion picture credits, certainly does, if the film makes 200 million! Return on investment.

My buddy pays a landscaper to mow his lawn and do maintenance. HE doesn't feel it's worth the time to learn how to do this stuff and then execute it. I disagree as he's single works a 4 day week and has more time than money, but it's his value system that drives his decisions.

I have assembled about 20-25 PC's over the years. I found it fun the first few times (until I had a bad ground due to a motherboard standoff.....) but now the fun factor is gone.

Several months ago I researched a few companies to purchase a DAW from, and in full disclosure I settled on Sonica Labs. I spent quite a bit of time speaking with the owner on the phone. We discussed particular needs and wants and had a great experience about it. While this information was available from other sources I'm sure, it was readily accessible due to the fine service they provided. As a sales/service business you would think this is the norm, but hardly.

To complicate matters, Sonica Labs was bought out during the period of time where I was deciding between a quad core and an I7 machine. The email discussion I was having transitioned SEAMLESSLY, and in fact if I wasn't used to dealing with a particular individual and noted a name change I might not have know about it at all (although they had a very open discussion about right after it happened).

Also, in full disclosure I ended up with an ADK machine that I very thrilled with. The service was outstanding, which is of course what you pay for when dealing with a SERVICE industry.

That's the root of it all. If it's "worth" more than what it costs then buy it.

I understand there is a dollar savings when DIY (as there almost always is) if you are competent. But the VALUE savings is FAR less obvious.

We always argue about this when the DIY vs BUY crowd gets together, but it really is a pointless argument.

Value. Cost benefit analysis. Return on investment. All easy terms to quantify until they include things beside straight money costs.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to hear my own voice I guess.

Jeff

ORIGINAL: lazarous

ORIGINAL: sandman5000

ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry

Stop derailing the OP.

Have already apologized to the OP... and offered to give him the advice he needs.

We've been down this road before...
As with last time, if you stop talking crap, we won't have any problems.
Ignore my posts... and I'll happily ignore yours.

well, if by not talking crap you mean not give my opinion, that's not going to happen. I will continue to advocate building it yourself. And i will continue to point out that you and the other guy are salesmen.

Sandman, you and I have already been down this road multiple times. I've done a number of price-tests between ADK, StudioCats and building machines myself. There isn't a $700 difference. Stop making up numbers. That's the trouble I see with your posts... you're not spouting actual figures, and I'd venture to say that's what's irritating Jim enough to take you to task.

In my case, both purchases through ADK were a cost SAVINGS in comparison to building it myself or trying to find a similarly spec'd laptop. In both cases, utilizing ADK put money back in my pocket because both Jim & Scott like to stay competitively priced. I know you understand the concept "Economy of Scale" - they buy in bulk, and can build a certain profit into selling the equipment at a slight markup, plus they get a labor rate... which is fair.

So go ahead and continue to suggest people build it themselves. I've done it, and frankly, it's just not worth it to me anymore. If you own a pool, you're making enough per hour to just admit that you think it's FUN to build them yourself. That's great, but for the vast majority of users, the real question is "What's the most time/cost efficient way to get a rock-solid DAW?"

And UNEQUIVOCALLY, the answer, if you do a true cost/benefit analysis, is to go to ADK or StudioCats. Period.

Mostly because your $700 price difference doesn't exist.

Corey

ORIGINAL: jcschild
newegg shopping list $1359.
$1398. this is an exact list to what i configured on my site for $1915



Scott
ADK

the above quote from another forum.

so a $556 difference. Still substantial. And if you recycle some drives and maybe a case and power supply, it's even more of a savings. By recycling parts, I was able to build a quad core machince that has served me very well for over a year for about $600. A comparable machine sold by daw builders, at the time, would have been $2,000 and up. So i saved at least $1,400 by doing it myself and recycling older parts. So a huge difference. And i could likely do the same for my next build. Just swap out the mobo, cpu and ram and I'll have a completely modern computer again for a few hundred bucks. That's value!

I do agree that it's up to the person whether or not that type of savings/cost is worth it. To me, it's all the same parts, there is not much value in paying extra. The only real extra you get with them is proven parts lists and perhaps support (which you shouldn't need anyway if it's a quality build). And the parts list i can get from fellow user forums with a little searching. They do put it all together for you. But again, not that valuable to me.

But still, my main issue is helping people that want to build, without having them get a sales pitch every time (either by the salesmen themselves, or their groupies). Although it is an option, it's not always what they are looking for. And very often real questions (that don't have much of a sales opportunity) get ignored.

10 hours minimum to research/build a PC. If you say it takes less than that, you're full of... er... 'it. Most people will spend 20 or more.

+1

That was me - except a higher number of hours. I spent so much time on newegg and tom's hardware I should have made them my homepage tabs. I went with a daw builder after first deciding to build it myself as I had done in the past. But I was wasting so much time trying to fill my shopping cart with just the right recipe of parts - and really dreading the whole process. Been there done that. So I decided to go with studiocat and it was the way to go for me. Keep in mind I was shopping for quality components to build my machine. The new one I have now has higher quality components than I was shopping for and ready to run from the moment I took it out of the box. I was within a couple of hundred bucks of what I was going to spend and still would have to build it, load it and tweak it. No audio setup needed - ready to perform. I could have built a much cheaper machine using say a q6600 chip, a 40 dollar case, etc. But the pain of changing over to a new machine is something I do not want to worry about for 2 - 4 years. So cheaper is better for the now - if you can get it to run cool and quiet. But for longer term, I prefer to invest a little more. It is pennies on the dollar in comparison to my time over a 2 to 4 year span.

ORIGINAL: sandman5000
But the OP didn't even get one real answer before getting the sales pitches. And that just somehow doesn't seem right to me. Of course, the OP could want that too, so no problem. But that isn't what he asked for. He asked for parts lists, from how I read it.

The funniest thing about this for me is that I've yet to see any "sales pitches" nor have I seen anyone with an agenda here other than yourself. It's also funny that you seem to be the only one annoyed about the views of the folks that build DAWs. But the most hilarious aspect of this is you seem to think there's something wrong with selling your services in the first place. Sorry but it's just ignorance to say things like this...as though the word "salesmen" was pejorative in the first place.

ORIGINAL: sandman5000
And i will continue to point out that you and the other guy are salesmen.

Personally, I think it comes down to what you want to do with your time. Maybe I'm just fortunate but I choose to spend my time wisely and I do consider carefully how I spend my time. Money is always secondary to time....

ORIGINAL: farrarbc



But the most hilarious aspect of this is you seem to think there's something wrong with selling your services in the first place. Sorry but it's just ignorance to say things like this...as though the word "salesmen" was pejorative in the first place.

I do have a point and a 'side'. And that is, this is a user forum. People here ask how to mix drums or what compressor to use or whatever. Everyone shares their information for free. Forums are a great resource of user information. Then come the salesmen, trying to bend this system for their gain. Nothing really wrong with trying to make a buck, mind you, but it seems vulture-ish to me and against the idea of users helping users freely. Additional, I think it does a disservice to the community by keeping people in the dark. So if you find that ignorant or humorous, so be it.

ORIGINAL: sandman5000
I do have a point and a 'side'. And that is, this is a user forum. People here ask how to mix drums or what compressor to use or whatever. Everyone shares their information for free. Forums are a great resource of user information. Then come the salesmen, trying to bend this system for their gain. Nothing really wrong with trying to make a buck, mind you, but it seems vulture-ish to me and against the idea of users helping users freely. Additional, I think it does a disservice to the community by keeping people in the dark. So if you find that ignorant or humorous, so be it.

Clearly you have an agenda...may I remind you of your entrance into this thread?

ORIGINAL: sandman5000
You make it sound like they are the only ones that now this stuff (which I'm $ure they appreciate). ..... I think discouraging others to (what seems to me) kiss the local daw builders butt, does a disservice to the community.

It's pretty rude and actually degenerated the thread in the first place. There many here who have valued the opinions and advice of certain members of this community who happen to also build and sell DAWs. I'm not sure how you figure they are "keeping people in the dark" and doing "a disservice to the community." Really your initial attack and unsolicited sarcasm on community members is far more untoward than someone's sideline or profession. So yeah I find that both a bit ignorant and funny.

ORIGINAL: farrarbc


I'm not sure how you figure they are "keeping people in the dark" and doing "a disservice to the community."

it's simple. A ton of people would like to know what a good, trouble free parts list is so they can build their own. But which motherboard is never shared (obviously because the daw builders value would drop to...well pretty low). So that seems wrong to me in a user, peer to peer environment. It keeps people in the dark. It's a disservice to the community (not to the few that can make a profit off the lack of knowledge or can afford it) because it keeps real knowledge and conversation about computer parts for daws very limited. This should be, and is with a little research, public knowledge.

Why don't I just send you to source and you can ask them yourself?
http://www.studionu.com/uadforums/
I'm sure they can tell exactly.

The difference between you and me, "Bob"... is that I don't have to ask.
I know the answer.

On that note, it's time to use this forum's ignore feature.

ORIGINAL: sandman5000

ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry

Why don't I just send you to source and you can ask them yourself?
http://www.studionu.com/uadforums/
I'm sure they can tell exactly.

The difference between you and me, "Bob"... is that I don't have to ask.
I know the answer.

On that note, it's time to use this forum's ignore feature.

Well, I can know the answer too. Directly from UAD. And I don't have to pay a super inflated premium for that answer. UAD or someone from it's user community would be glad to tell me what works well. But again, UAD has nothing to do with this thread. You are throwing it out in an attempt to make yourself look like some special expert with secret knowledge. But it's not that difficult to figure out what parts to order.

No, you can't know the answer, Sandman. Here's the thing: I'm a MEMBER of the UAD Forum, and while they're great, they don't have all of the answers either. I have a UAD1 AND an RME Hammerfall 9652... guess what? On some MOBO's that work GREAT with a UAD1, the RME craps out. Or vice versa. Jim and Scott, as PROFESSIONALS in this industry, have been through it all. Your solution is to go with "known good" from an extremely varied group of amateurs. Not exactly the best method.

Please note: Neither Jim nor Scott posted to this thread until you rudely popped up on your soap box. Honestly, I don't have a problem with your POV... I have a problem with you expecting Scott & Jim to blow what is an EXPENSIVE R&D process by just telling us what MOBO's work well for every specific situation.

Seriously... how do you think they come up with the machines that work? They spend time and money beating to DEATH every piece of gear that hits the showroom floor until they can provide a ROCK solid machine.

We've gone round about this before. You're just as vehement as I am in my direction, and I'll state it clearly: You're a lying bastard if you say you spend less than an hour researching your next computer build, and you know it!

There's my issue with your posts, Sandman: The average person will NOT just take the first two SUPPOSEDLY working machine parts lists and buy. They're going to do what you do (if you're honest) and spend HOURS upon hours looking on forums, reading reviews, hoping and praying they end up with a working machine. I had 100 hours into the last machine I built, because I took one piece of bad advice from the research I did... I bought the wrong MOBO.

At the time, my recording time was billing out at $25 per hour. That's $2,500 I flushed down the toilet follow your suggested method, no matter how you look at it. Does that happen to everyone? Does it happen every time? Nope. Does it even happen most of the time? Probably not. Most people, frankly, don't push their machines as hard as I do... or have the requirement of 100% solid performance all of the time while clients are sitting next to me while I work. Because of these requirements, Scott or Jim get my money. Period.

You call us fanboys? I call you a militant open-sourcer. Why, oh why, should Jim and Scott give up what you've already admitted is their competitive advantage? Go check out this and every other thread... Jim and Scott NEVER offer their services... people like ME suggest them as an alternative to the potentially dark road you send them down.

Please note: My specs are located below, and always have been.

Corey

ORIGINAL: lazarous

ORIGINAL: sandman5000

ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry

Why don't I just send you to source and you can ask them yourself?
http://www.studionu.com/uadforums/
I'm sure they can tell exactly.

The difference between you and me, "Bob"... is that I don't have to ask.
I know the answer.

On that note, it's time to use this forum's ignore feature.

Well, I can know the answer too. Directly from UAD. And I don't have to pay a super inflated premium for that answer. UAD or someone from it's user community would be glad to tell me what works well. But again, UAD has nothing to do with this thread. You are throwing it out in an attempt to make yourself look like some special expert with secret knowledge. But it's not that difficult to figure out what parts to order.

No, you can't know the answer, Sandman. Here's the thing: I'm a MEMBER of the UAD Forum, and while they're great, they don't have all of the answers either. I have a UAD1 AND an RME Hammerfall 9652... guess what? On some MOBO's that work GREAT with a UAD1, the RME craps out. Or vice versa. Jim and Scott, as PROFESSIONALS in this industry, have been through it all. Your solution is to go with "known good" from an extremely varied group of amateurs. Not exactly the best method.

Please note: Neither Jim nor Scott posted to this thread until you rudely popped up on your soap box. Honestly, I don't have a problem with your POV... I have a problem with you expecting Scott & Jim to blow what is an EXPENSIVE R&D process by just telling us what MOBO's work well for every specific situation.

Seriously... how do you think they come up with the machines that work? They spend time and money beating to DEATH every piece of gear that hits the showroom floor until they can provide a ROCK solid machine.

We've gone round about this before. You're just as vehement as I am in my direction, and I'll state it clearly: You're a lying bastard if you say you spend less than an hour researching your next computer build, and you know it!

There's my issue with your posts, Sandman: The average person will NOT just take the first two SUPPOSEDLY working machine parts lists and buy. They're going to do what you do (if you're honest) and spend HOURS upon hours looking on forums, reading reviews, hoping and praying they end up with a working machine. I had 100 hours into the last machine I built, because I took one piece of bad advice from the research I did... I bought the wrong MOBO.

At the time, my recording time was billing out at $25 per hour. That's $2,500 I flushed down the toilet follow your suggested method, no matter how you look at it. Does that happen to everyone? Does it happen every time? Nope. Does it even happen most of the time? Probably not. Most people, frankly, don't push their machines as hard as I do... or have the requirement of 100% solid performance all of the time while clients are sitting next to me while I work. Because of these requirements, Scott or Jim get my money. Period.

You call us fanboys? I call you a militant open-sourcer. Why, oh why, should Jim and Scott give up what you've already admitted is their competitive advantage? Go check out this and every other thread... Jim and Scott NEVER offer their services... people like ME suggest them as an alternative to the potentially dark road you send them down.

Please note: My specs are located below, and always have been.

Corey

for all the reasons I already stated, I have a different POV. I do believe it when there is a consensus of 'amateurs' saying a particular mobo works well. And I know UAD would have a good mobo recommendation if I asked them directly. But again, what does UAD have to do with the OP? It's a scare tactic. And what if one never wants to use UAD or firewire (like me)?

The daw assemblers don't have the exclusive rights to daw parts lists. But again, we are running in circles now. Cory, I think you are the coolest, but....we are not going to convince each other.

ORIGINAL: jcschild

ORIGINAL: sandman5000

ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry

Why don't I just send you to source and you can ask them yourself?
http://www.studionu.com/uadforums/
I'm sure they can tell exactly.

The difference between you and me, "Bob"... is that I don't have to ask.
I know the answer.

On that note, it's time to use this forum's ignore feature.

Well, I can know the answer too. Directly from UAD. And I don't have to pay a super inflated premium for that answer. UAD or someone from it's user community would be glad to tell me what works well. But again, UAD has nothing to do with this thread. You are throwing it out in an attempt to make yourself look like some special expert with secret knowledge. But it's not that difficult to figure out what parts to order.

oh really?
i have to be very careful how i word this i am am a vendor for most and also work closely with many about such things.. at the same time i get sick of this FUD.

manufacturers can tell you about older systems and then only 1-2 they have experiance with.
i get a kick outta this the manufacturer will know. the manufacturers turn to us Daw builders for answers...

do you really think that any manufacturer has a daw lab where they test and test on numerous platforms? i can tell you with a definitive NO. pick a manufacturer any one of them and i can flat tell you no they do not.
most are running on older systems and very few at that.
Cake is one of the few that have a core i7.
Cake is smart about it, they started doing the "Daw Labs" thing a few yrs ago.
that gives them to opportunity to test varuois platforms/systems and it helps those who sent the systems in for testing

Digi: only recommends systems given to them and have allowed testing in the past then stopped. and then only to Digi dealers.
i could go on and on.

alot of them do the same you do read forums, or call us or other builders.

do you know why we tell our clients to always call us first for support and NOT the manufacturer? (soft or hardware)
because i have had manufacturer support (pick any name save a very small amount) tell my clients some very BAD info and screwed up their systems.

trust me the best answers generally do not come from the manufacturer.

some like UA, Cake and RME are very active in thier knowledge gathering and system testing/validation
others are still running pentium 4 and 1st gen opterons. think i am kidding?

MOST relay on BETA testing more than anything.

I'm really not trying to fight or be contradictory. But I do have another very different opinion and I think it could be helpful to some for me to share it.

SO.... I feel your post is scare tactics that are the exception, not the rule.

If people where only able to get a successful daw by going thru a daw builder, then how do explain the hundreds of thousands of people that successfully build their own, trouble free systems (like me)? UAD forums (or any music forums) would be full of posts on the subject. But most places have one or two posts about help with a self built system not working right.

Not scientific, I know, but neither is the assertion that you will have trouble if you build it yourself. In fact, one can make the fair assumption that mostly all self builds are wroking fine (UAD or otherwise).