Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:13:48
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John
Heck what does a the word "clip" mean if you have never seen it used before?
That's not Sonarese...that is plain English. Anyone with a grasp of English would understand 'clip' without resorting to a Sonar-English dictionary.
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Middleman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:15:57
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A cultural divide at work here.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:17:06
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:17:47
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sven450
Intution is where you don't need to read the manual to find something because it is where you expect it and need it to be as it is in the most logical place for it to be..
This works great if You are the only person using Sonar. Otherwise, we are going to have some issues. I'm pretty sure that where I want and expect something to be will be different from any number of other users and where they expect to find things. You expect to find commands about a track's properties under an arbitrary right click.
In all previous Sonars I found it where my intuition told me it would be. I never delved in Help/Manual to discover that right clicking on a clip in the TV gave me all sorts of options relating to that clip.....hardly 'arbitary' but totally logical....... Now I have no options when right clicking on the clip in the TV - it seems illogical that things relating to that clip should be somewhere other than tied to that clip.
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:18:53
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Oh really what is the difference between a track and a click? Why does Sonar make a distinction between clip automation and track automation? How about track FX bins and clip FX bins?
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:19:38
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:21:56
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John
Oh really what is the difference between a track and a click? Why does Sonar make a distinction between clip automation and track automation? How about track FX bins and clip FX bins?
Jesus.....there are logical reasons behind all those differences....I'm sure you know...I don't need a manual to expalin those things. They are self apparent by the way they are named.....if you need a manual to assist you in differentiating between those things perhaps you still need spoon feeding by your mummy? They are perfectly logically named and the differences between them are bleeding obvious.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:22:36
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The Windows right click context menu concept is the result of millions of dollars of focus group study that made some specific effort to learn what is generally considered intuitive.
It seems to me that some of the results of those intense studies are now being eschewed for the sake of change or perhaps to entertain those who truly seem to enjoy reading manuals.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:27:32
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"John
Oh really what is the difference between a track and a click? Why does Sonar make a distinction between clip automation and track automation? How about track FX bins and clip FX bins? "
Should I surmise that these things were difficult for you to learn? Hint, that's an actual question.
Just in case you need a ready reference: Clips are subsets of Tracks. Features attributed to or associated with a clip may exist on a Track.  I get the feeling you already know this stuff.
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trimph1
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:27:47
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The verbalists are at it again...you must read the manual to do anything. Why should you, or anyone else for that matter, have to go through the manual? It worked before without it... Must be a left brain/right brain thing... 
post edited by trimph1 - 2011/04/08 12:28:49
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:30:18
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It seems to me that some of the results of those intense studies are now being eschewed for the sake of change or perhaps to entertain those who truly seem to enjoy reading manuals. You're on to me! I'm not a musician, I'm an avid MANUAL READER! Next on my list is the 1500 page Photoshop manual. I heard its a real page turner. That being said, adding some options to a right click menu would go a long way to making those uninterested in the new way a bit happier. However, I have no idea how difficult that would be, or if those in charge are interested in what I'm sure they would consider moving backwards.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:34:05
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Hi Sven,
I just want to sincerely share with you the fact that I enjoy your kind and friendly spirit!
all the best,
mike
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:36:26
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Jesus.....there are logical reasons behind all those differences....I'm sure you know...I don't need a manual to expalin those things. They are self apparent by the way they are named.....if you need a manual to assist you in differentiating between those things perhaps you still need spoon feeding by your mummy? They are perfectly logically named and the differences between them are bleeding obvious. That is because you know them but what of the new user? You have been around Sonar and perhaps DAWs for some time. You may have had experience with other DAWs. Now suppose you have not had that under your belt. What would it mean to you on first encountering it with X1? In fact without reading the manual the word may never come up as a new user.
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:38:27
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John
Jesus.....there are logical reasons behind all those differences....I'm sure you know...I don't need a manual to expalin those things. They are self apparent by the way they are named.....if you need a manual to assist you in differentiating between those things perhaps you still need spoon feeding by your mummy? They are perfectly logically named and the differences between them are bleeding obvious.
That is because you know them but what of the new user? You have been around Sonar and perhaps DAWs for some time. You may have had experience with other DAWs. Now suppose you have not had that under your belt. What would it mean to you on first encountering it with X1? In fact without reading the manual the word may never come up as a new user.
I never needed a manual to explain those terms, so I wouldn't expect a new user to either. They are self apparent by the way they are named. It's called literacy.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:40:39
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"That is because you know them but what of the new user? You have been around Sonar and perhaps DAWs for some time. You may have had experience with other DAWs. Now suppose you have not had that under your belt. What would it mean to you on first encountering it with X1? In fact without reading the manual the word may never come up as a new user." Are you advocating that someone who has no knowledge of non linear editing should be catered to by Cakewalk's top tier non linear editing product? Hint: That's a question. Hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...-linear_editing_system
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:47:19
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Nobody is going to buy Sonar without first understanding what it is that they are buying, are they?
It's hardly going to be an impulse buy for a non-musician/non-engineer....it's not a game, so terms such as track and clip will not be a foreign language for them, will it?
Perhaps they were for you, John?
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:47:42
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If this thread has devolved into advocating that a manual should not be read I am done with it.
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trimph1
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:49:37
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John
If this thread has devolved into advocating that a manual should not be read I am done with it.
So. You are advocating that the manual must be read first before all else...is there a test afterwards?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:53:32
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John
If this thread has devolved into advocating that a manual should not be read I am done with it.
I'm not saying that. X1 is though, the first iteration of Sonar that I have used that is making me need to read the manual - not because it is complex but because my intuition can no longer work Sonar. I think that must be seen as a retrograde step for the program.
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:58:23
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trimph1
John
If this thread has devolved into advocating that a manual should not be read I am done with it.
So. You are advocating that the manual must be read first before all else...is there a test afterwards?
Not a test but a quick quiz.  I am advocating that the manual is there to be read.
post edited by John - 2011/04/08 12:59:33
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:00:33
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:01:47
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"If this thread has devolved into advocating that a manual should not be read I am done with it."
A very clever and subtle use of the Strawman Fallacy tactic.
The thread can not defend itself... so it's easy to feel like a winner!
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SteveGriffiths
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:01:53
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mike_mccue
The Windows right click context menu concept is the result of millions of dollars of focus group study that made some specific effort to learn what is generally considered intuitive.
It seems to me that some of the results of those intense studies are now being eschewed for the sake of change or perhaps to entertain those who truly seem to enjoy reading manuals.
Usually I lurk, however. Right Click Context Menus predate Windows, and are not a Microsoft invention. They first appeared in Borland Quattro for DOS, and were established in house without the need for "millions of dollars of focus group study". MS may have invested "millions of dollars of focus group study" after the fact to see if they should adopt it - all they really needed to do was try Quattro out. That said, I like Right Click menus, and do feel that the existing interfaces should have been left in place. However, as with other changes from 8.5.3 to X1, once I got passed a few head scratching moments (yes I used the manual/help/video, I am getting things done faster. This release has encouraged me to finally learn many more of the Keyboard Shortcuts and allowed me to not have one hand permanently on a mouse. How anyone can claim to learn all the shortcuts without reference material is beyond me. Cheers... Grif
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:03:52
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Twigman
John
I am advocating that the manual is there to be read.
Some things appear not to be in the manual:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2277964
Interestingly the help file is not in full agreement with the manual either.
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trimph1
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:06:25
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Reference material are fine BUT...the thing is that they should not have thrown right click menus out the window like they did...one can have intuitive controls as well as non intuitive without the either/or of the current methods of doing things. No matter how much one can go to the manual to find out how to do X there is always going to be a gap somewhere in that manual...like it or not.
post edited by trimph1 - 2011/04/08 13:08:05
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:07:02
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I never needed a manual to explain those terms, so I wouldn't expect a new user to either.
They are self apparent by the way they are named.
It's called literacy.
Much of your argument (not just the above quote) is stating that Sonar (a vast, multifaceted and deep program) should be able to be used successfully without bothering with a manual, and that is beyond weak.
To declare that one should be able to fire up Sonar and just use it without referring to documentation-- and to similarly imply that any program that requires one to read about its intricacies is somehow flawed-- is simply not tenable. You were better off with the whole right click argument. That makes some sense.
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:08:50
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Hi Sven, I just want to sincerely share with you the fact that I enjoy your kind and friendly spirit! all the best, mike right back at ya.
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trimph1
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:10:52
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John
Twigman
John
I am advocating that the manual is there to be read.
Some things appear not to be in the manual:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2277964
Interestingly the help file is not in full agreement with the manual either.
precisely my point...there is a gap in the understanding... Those who go by the manual only are just as much in a pickle jar as those who go by intuition...can we not have both together?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:11:21
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Hi Grif,
Your input and insights are most welcome.
I am comfortable in the knowledge that I never suggested that Microsoft invented a good idea like right click contest menus... although in retrospect I see that I didn't clarify the thought either way.
I was hoping to explain how Microsoft exploited a very good idea by investing a lot of money to sort through opinion and make good leadership decisions regarding GUI design.
FWIW, I have routinely learned the short cuts I value because they are listed in the drop down menus or tool tips.
Additionally, each year, the shortcuts are collected and posted in several document formats by one of our veteran forum members. I apologize that his name escapes me at the moment.
all the best,
mike
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 13:17:10
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sven450
To declare that one should be able to fire up Sonar and just use it without referring to documentation-- and to similarly imply that any program that requires one to read about its intricacies is somehow flawed-- is simply not tenable. You were better off with the whole right click argument. That makes some sense.
The only time I read the documentation when I first started using Sonar was to identify how Sonar sent/received signals from my interfaces and how to arm a track and record data, be it audio or midi. Everything else was just learned by experimentation, intuition and from reading the forum.
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