Twigman
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Am i being an idiot?
In older Sonars I used to be able to change the properties of a MIDI clip just by right clicking it and typing in the box.
If I record a midi clip and I wish to ensure it is exactly x measures long but the midi doesn't play right to the end of the xth measure, I used to be able to change the length of the clip in the Clip properties dialog.....I can't find such a thing in X1...I have been slip editing the clip to do this but if I forget to set my snap to to whole then I sometimes won't hit the full measure which, when groove clip looping, causes the clip to slip in time from where I want it to sit.
So where is the clip properties dialog hiding these days?
Another example of how X1 has made things more difficult/complicated/unintuitive.
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kp
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 04:48:03
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In the Inspector (press I by default)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 07:29:16
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That would be on Page 528 of the SONAR X1 Reference Guide.
Well, actually you have to read page 506 to see the explanation to press "I".
Everything you need to know is in the "Inspectors" section that starts on page 503.
Of course it helps to know that the old right click menu has been hidden in the Inspector module... that way you can go look it up in the Reference guide index under Inspector.
;-)
best regards,
mike
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 08:08:58
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Do you really want to know?
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 08:16:41
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John
Do you really want to know?
If I didn't, I wouldn't have asked.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 08:19:23
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It was a rhetorical question. I don't think he really wanted to know if you wanted to know.
It was more like a statement.
I can't effectively block someone if you guys are gonna post the quotes. ;-)
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 08:22:47
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mike_mccue
Of course it helps to know that the old right click menu has been hidden in the Inspector module...
How are we supposed to know that? Is it supposed to be obvious? It's so counter-intuitive, not what I would expect at all. The old right click menus actually made sense. I miss them.
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 08:24:43
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mike_mccue
I can't effectively block someone if you guys are gonna post the quotes. ;-)
Apologies. I suppose if i block him too, i won't be tempted to quote him. I agreed with every point you made yesterday but refrained from becoming too embroiled in the discussion due to my recent suspension.
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 10:28:11
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Another example of how X1 has made things more difficult/complicated/unintuitive. If you consider pressing "I" difficult, than I suppose you are right. I personally don't find pressing "I" and using that as a homebase for all things related to a track's properties complicated. You could just leave the track inspector open, then you wouldn't be faced with the anguish of having to press "I"  . Its not complicated, simply new. Reading the manual, as Mike "joked", is also very helpful. That is also "how you are supposed to know". The manual.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 10:36:47
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I don't enjoy wasting the screen space on the inspector pane.
I much preferred the small contextualized menus that popped up right where I was looking/thinking about them. Some were small, some were bigger when they needed to be.
"If you consider pressing "I" difficult, than I suppose you are right."
This is an example of manufacturing an argument out of thin air and then arguing against your very own argument that you made out of thin air.
I personally don't consider pressing "I" difficult. I consider the ramifications of watching the inspector open and taking up all that screen space to be a de-evolution of a GUI.
That's all I'm gonna say... which should give people lots of opportunity to make more stuff up out of thin air.
all the best,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 10:43:08
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 10:58:30
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sven450
Another example of how X1 has made things more difficult/complicated/unintuitive.
If you consider pressing "I" difficult, than I suppose you are right. I personally don't find pressing "I" and using that as a homebase for all things related to a track's properties complicated. You could just leave the track inspector open, then you wouldn't be faced with the anguish of having to press "I" .
OK so maybe not difficult....but counter-intuitive, over-complicated and inconvenient...... I'm with Mike all the way on this one. Bring back the right click context based menus.
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skullsession
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:01:43
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Is this where I argue?
Someone tell me when it's MY turn.
But for now, I've got to get back to Sonar 5 and finish these mixes....
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:06:53
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"If you consider pressing "I" difficult, than I suppose you are right." This is an example of manufacturing an argument out of thin air and then arguing against your very own argument that you made out of thin air. It was the original post which mentioned it was "difficult, and complicated". I wouldn't consider that making anything up. X1's Inspector pane is clearly neither of those things. If you don't like the screen space being used up, of course that is your choice. If you liked the right click menu better, so be it. I was simply referring to the OPs tired comment about X1 being unnecessarily difficult and complicated. It ain't. It is different. The OP may might not like it, but that does not make it difficult nor does it make it complicated.
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:07:10
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One reason to use a dual monitor setup. I have the Inspector on the other monitor. This was not possible in 8.5. It frees up a lot of screen space plus one can have the dual Inspector open with no impact on screen space in the TV. Then as to screen space the Sonar Plus utility from Ben adds a maximize button that can help in getting as much screen space as is possible not to mention abilities not available in 8. And last but not least, Screen Sets. Another way to have great control over the display. I also agree its simple to use the Inspector for all parameter changes. A right menu is only intuitive if you know about it and what its going to do. I recall a while back the advice to click on everything in Sonar to find out what happens whether its an object or not. Very unintuitive. Not! What one may think is natural and intuitive really depends on what one knows about a GUI. Yes it is different from what it used to be but does that really make it unintuitive? For those just starting out with X1 and many of us that have used Sonar for ages this new GUI is far and away easier to handle and understand. Because it has a clear logic it is intuitive. It offers a lot of advantages for one thing. The most important to me is the dual monitor support. X1 is much better in that regard. Sonar has always been strong in dual monitor support yet I recall again explaining to new users about floating a window over to the other monitor. Was that intuitive? If it was why was it not found out by the user? Just because we become familiar with the way something is done and learn to accept it does not mean its the only way or even the right way to do it. If we are to move forward isn't trying another approach worth doing? It may in the end turn out that its not the best way but how can we know without giving it a good run? Also just to underline this. How many threads have we seen that declare something is not working or broken when it is the user that doesn't know how to use the new tool or feature? They insist on doing it the old way and not READING the manual to find out how to do it. This may be of interest to some. Firefox 4 and its new design.
post edited by John - 2011/04/08 11:21:42
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:22:25
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John
What one may think is natural and intuitive really depends on what one knows about a GUI. Yes it is different from what it used to be but does that really make it unintuitive?
I never had to read the manual with previous Sonars[ not even when I first got Sonar]...everything was logical, intutive and where I expected it to be. Mostly, I just found stuff where I expected it to be and it did what i expected it to do. Everyone keeps telling me to RTM....I think if you have to RTM to find something that you have looked for already [and what you seek is there] then that is a pretty firm indication that the software is illogical and counter-intutive.
post edited by Twigman - 2011/04/08 11:24:13
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Gary McCoy
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:28:20
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How are we supposed to know that?
Is it supposed to be obvious?
It's so counter-intuitive, not what I would expect at all.
I sympathize with your frustration because I have experienced it myself. But, to be fair, I do not think the changes are counter-intuitive at all. I think the changes run counter to your experience, but that is a different thing. I submit that a brand new user, who is not used to having done things a certain way for months or years, would not find the new approach to be counter-intuitive at all. And, as I adjust my experience to the new approach, I am having very little difficulty with it, and I am liking it a great deal. I will wager that you will adjust pretty easily.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:43:27
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sven450
[sic]So where is the clip properties dialog hiding these days?[/sic]
Another example of how X1 has made things more difficult/complicated/unintuitive.
If you consider pressing "I" difficult, than I suppose you are right. I personally don't find pressing "I" and using that as a homebase for all things related to a track's properties complicated. You could just leave the track inspector open, then you wouldn't be faced with the anguish of having to press "I" .
Its not complicated, simply new.
Reading the manual, as Mike "joked", is also very helpful.
That is also "how you are supposed to know". The manual.
The idea behind what you are saying seems agreeable to me, but bear in mind that when the phrase "difficult/complicated/unintuitive." was used the OP did not know that pressing "I" was an option... nor did he know where the properties dialog had been moved too. With that in mind, comparing that phrase to the actual procedure of pressing the "I" key is a disruption of context. Within context, the phrase "difficult/complicated/unintuitive." simply described the OP's process of figuring out where the properties dialog had been placed. The "Strawman" fallacy comes into play when ever you paraphrase your antagonists argument. A Strawman fallacy always undermines the presentation of your argument. When ever you paraphrase someones argument you should do your very best to phrase it to the antagonist's advantage before you offer a counter argument in an effort to minimize the lack of credibility introduced whenever a "Strawman" argument is employed. As a reminder, I don't mind the pressing "I". ( although the right click left my left hand free to do hammer ons ) I am more interested in witnessing an effective discussion that isn't tainted with fallacy. all the best, mike add [sic]
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/04/08 11:50:44
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:55:46
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Twigman
John
What one may think is natural and intuitive really depends on what one knows about a GUI. Yes it is different from what it used to be but does that really make it unintuitive?
I never had to read the manual with previous Sonars[ not even when I first got Sonar]...everything was logical, intutive and where I expected it to be. Mostly, I just found stuff where I expected it to be and it did what i expected it to do.
Everyone keeps telling me to RTM....I think if you have to RTM to find something that you have looked for already [and what you seek is there] then that is a pretty firm indication that the software is illogical and counter-intutive.
I sure did read the manual. That was when Sonar first came out. I still read the manual. I even have my own loose leaf manual I have put together over the years. Some things in it from this forum others from SOS. All sorts of information about Sonar is in there. Now its gone to three full large loose leaf books. Plus a lot I have that is not put in them. I have read every manual CW has ever put out on Sonar. I still have a lot to learn. I plan to get Scott's book on X1 as well. I have always advised new users to read the manual. X1 does not change that. Then I don't except that you never read the manual. Either you are a very remarkable computer user that is able to know about an app without having any fore knowledge of it or you have super powers. No one that I have seen on this forum has not at some point opened up the manual to find out something at one time or another. But then it could be that you use it in a very limited way that does not need any referral. I for one admit to not knowing everything to do with Sonar. That is why a manual is so important to me. When I am here I am mostly interested in learning about it. But close behind I am here to offer help to others. Sometimes I have not done a particular thing being asked about and I then need to refer to the manual for the answer. Mike thinks that is so shameful. I think its what fellow users do to be helpful. Often times its really a matter of the right nomenclature to get the right answer to the user. This comes from reading the manual. Clearly CW thinks a manual is important to have otherwise why do they put so much effort into it? But you couldn't know that because you never have looked at it.
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 11:58:25
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Mike: Nice lesson on rhetoric. Perhaps my reply should have simply been "It would not be difficult or confusing if you would bother to read the manual", but that just seems mean. It does bear repeating though: X1 is a new paradigm for Cakewalk, and once that is accepted, to assume one can waltz in and just "figure it out" without reading up on the fundamental changes that were made is pretty silly.
Anyway, I think this poster said it best:
"But, to be fair, I do not think the changes are counter-intuitive at all. I think the changes run counter to your experience, but that is a different thing."
Rock on.
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:00:47
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The idea behind what you are saying seems agreeable to me, but bear in mind that when the phrase "difficult/complicated/unintuitive." was used the OP did not know that pressing "I" was an option... nor did he know where the properties dialog had been moved too.
How would a new user know that there are properties without looking into the manual? The key here is "moved to". A new user can't know anything about properties moved or not. Old users would know about them but now its simply a matter of finding out where they have been placed. Once done its now intuitive.
post edited by John - 2011/04/08 12:03:03
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:01:41
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John
Clearly CW thinks a manual is important to have otherwise why do they put so much effort into it? But you couldn't know that because you never have looked at it.
Oh I've looked at it but generally whan I have I have found it unhelpful. Help items are indexed in places one would not expect to find them and instructions assume many things.......such as 'in the clip properties dialog' without actually telling you how to find and open said dialog.
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:04:16
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John
Old users would know about them but now its simply a matter of finding out where they have been placed. Once done its now intuitive.
Not if where they have been placed is far from where they ought to be in an illogical place that makes it inconvenient to use. Intution is where you don't need to read the manual to find something because it is where you expect it and need it to be as it is in the most logical place for it to be..
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:04:37
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Back when I demo'd 7 different DAWs and choose to use Cakewalk it was precisely because I could get it running without reading the manual.
All the info I needed was available through contextual menus and contextual help.
That characteristic was exactly what I expected in a Windows program... A program that I could learn intuitively simply by using it and clicking away with a mouse.
I don't mind reading manuals but there is a lot of good to be said for the classic Windows click and learn layout.
I choose my 3D Studio Max animation program the very same way. It was made for Windows users.
I think Adobe's success has been very much integrated to the idea that the programs were self fulfilling if you simply clicked and learned. Adobe has strayed from that and now can provide a useful example of how not to change a good thing just for the sake of change.
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Twigman
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:06:43
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mike
sometimes I wonder if you are actually me...
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Stone House Studios
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:08:55
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As a reminder, I don't mind pressing an effective discussion that isn't tainted with fallacy. ( although I right click my left hand to do hammer ons ) I am more "difficult/complicated/unintuitive." . Is this what you mean by paraphrasing?  Brian
Core i7-6700@3.40Ghz Windows 10x64 16 GB RAM Sonar Platinum/Studio One PreSonus Studio 192
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:09:39
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"CW thinks a manual is important... But you couldn't know that because you never have looked at it."
Egregious example of a Strawman Fallacy.
A desperate move.
It may seem like a useful last resort when one can't stand their ground in a debate, but it's not.
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:09:41
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The help in Sonar and the manual are much the same thing. If you are making a distinction between a manual and the help file I think that would be a misdirection as to your never reading the manual.
I agree that the terms used are the basic issue with Sonar or any powerful program. One reason I used the term nomenclature. Sonar has its own language. Once learned it becomes much easier to find things in the manual and in the program itself. Heck what does a the word "clip" mean if you have never seen it used before?
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sven450
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:13:11
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Intution is where you don't need to read the manual to find something because it is where you expect it and need it to be as it is in the most logical place for it to be.. This works great if You are the only person using Sonar. Otherwise, we are going to have some issues. I'm pretty sure that where I want and expect something to be will be different from any number of other users and where they expect to find things. You expect to find commands about a track's properties under an arbitrary right click. I expect to find it in a pane that is labeled TRACK INSPECTOR and gives all information about tracks. Which is more intuitive?
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John
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Re:Am i being an idiot?
2011/04/08 12:13:32
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mike_mccue
"CW thinks a manual is important... But you couldn't know that because you never have looked at it."
Egregious example of a Strawman Fallacy.
A desperate move.
It may seem like a useful last resort when one can't stand their ground in a debate, but it's not.
You are getting absurd to the point of it becoming distracting. This is not a debate club Mike. Its a forum.
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