AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera

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BenMMusTech
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2012/03/25 04:40:42 (permalink)

AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera

This is for James, what I am talking about is digita lens and analog lens, it's simple, and it ties in with optimal operating levels.
 
The analog camera or tape machine works better when you record to the meduim at a certain level.
 
the digital camera or digtal recorder works better when you record to the medium at a certain level.
 
This is my theory, from the articles by M Stavrou and R'ONeil
 
I'm not saying I am right or wrong but to me and my ears it works, and my proof is that I have had music released abeit on television.
 
Does that help James

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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    John T
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 04:50:05 (permalink)
    Having music released is not proof of that. What a strange notion of proof. 

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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 05:11:48 (permalink)
    Are you and john the same person (joke) no it's not proof but I use it as an example of my creditials if I produced crap sounding music which I have I would not have had music on TV.

    Making my argument crap.

    Look hate me all you want but look up what I am saying I know that I am right.

    We are using different capturing devices so different rules apply.

    Yes I could be wrong and I accept that but this is my thoery and if I produced crap music which to some I do, then my theory would be wrong and the music unusable.

     But because it has been on TV it is useable, yes my music sounds different to what is produced but it translates.  I know, because I use different listening mediums.

    Some of you are so bitter (not you JT, but get out of the past, the digtal medium is different from the analog medium)

    Alice in Analog land is my saying.

    Peace Ben

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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    #3
    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 05:23:18 (permalink)
    Lets try this tape has a dynamic range of around 50 so the camera works best (guess) at around 25-35 db.

    A digital recorder has a dynamic range of around at worst 100db, so the optimal range for digital is arounf 100db.

    Does this make sense??

    neb

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    Rain
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 05:36:12 (permalink)
    No.

    Digital is 0s and 1s. There's no distortion at the top when it gets hotter and the noise floor is way below what it was in the analog days.  Actually, there is no real noise floor to speak of, beside the one introduced on the analog level. 

    Anything between those 2 extremes will be captured as is in the digital format. There is no optimal range per se w/ digital because you don't have to compromise between distortion and noise floor.



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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 05:45:13 (permalink)
    Rain


    No.

    Digital is 0s and 1s. There's no distortion at the top when it gets hotter and the noise floor is way below what it was in the analog days.  Actually, there is no real noise floor to speak of, beside the one introduced on the analog level. 

    Anything between those 2 extremes will be captured as is in the digital format. There is no optimal range per se w/ digital because you don't have to compromise between distortion and noise floor.

    Wrong and this is my point each has an optimumal operating range so to get the best to get out of digital we need to use as much of the digital range  

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    Rain
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 05:57:26 (permalink)
    I know it is your point. Fortunately, that doesn't make me wrong.

    The only thing remotely close to being in favor of what you say is that recording at a reasonable higher level allows one to take advantage 24 bits capacity, using more bits.

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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 06:09:28 (permalink)
    Still don't get it I'm not trying to insult you to get the best out of digital all or most of the dynamic range has to be used. The digital camera cs analog camera analogy  it's what analog heads still don't get

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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    Rain
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 06:35:58 (permalink)
    Then I guess the confusion arises from calling it "your theory".

    It is a fact (not a theory, not yours nor mine) that it's better to use as many bits as possible to represent the signal. Its nothing new, nothing revolutionary, and in most cases - unless you're working on a classical instrument sample library - it's questionable whether the benefits of recording w/ the input meters peaking at -3 db or - 7 db could even be audible in context of a song.

    In summary - record at decent levels, don't clip. It's only common knowledge, not a sacred cause or some elusive wisdom that we have to let the world on in. I don't think anyone has a patent pending on that.


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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 07:17:01 (permalink)
    Maybe not I said I got the idea from m stavrou and extrapolated on the idea with the concept of optimal levels for each device mr John 20000 posts who doesn't seem to make music unless you call posts music which you can started to have a go at me.

    Lets get this straight at each gain stage we have to get the gain structure right so if we are using a cheap per amp it may mean the gain has to be high this then goes into converters rha also may need to be high this is so we get the harmonics nice on the devices we are useing. 

    Lest get another thing straight the camera anaology comes in if the analog camera/recorder uses only 50db of dynamic range it stands to reason together the best picture we need to use the full 50 db or somewhere close.

    The same applies to digital to get the best out of digital if our converters are say 110 db of dynamic range we need to use as much of that dynamic range to get the best picture.

    If you know this great but some don't and John mr 20000 posts who has not shared his work does not from the verbal **** that has Coe out of his mouth.

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    #10
    John
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 07:22:02 (permalink)
    What is an analog camera?

    Best
    John
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    trimph1
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 07:22:06 (permalink)
    Eh?

    What is going on here?

    Sample rates, bit depth, bit rate...too early in the morning for this....

    ;-)

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

    Bushpianos
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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:14:17 (permalink)
    John


    What is an analog camera?

    John I get it you think I am a tool but where is your evidence of what you have acheived.
     
    I still think you are down the rabbit hole with Alice in Analog Land

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    #13
    mudgel
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:24:19 (permalink)
    For a person who  makes so much of their status as a self proclaimed Master of Music Technology you could do with some courses in communication.

    I'm sorry Ben but if you mix your sounds the way you mix your words in constructing intelligible communications you are in deed in need of help.

    Sorry for the unkind words but you're just a bit too puffed up for your own good.

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    Sickvision
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:30:43 (permalink)
    there is a digital camera in sonar
     i know i know mind my buisness , go to bed
     if  having things pubished is some kind of  credit tword rockstarism , hell im eddie vanhalen
     , sorry back to the fight

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:48:31 (permalink)
    John


    What is an analog camera?

    i'm guessing it means one that uses real film... like 35mm that needs chemicals and stuff to develop the negatives..... 


    there is much to be said for them but convenience is not one of their attributes. 

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:51:28 (permalink)
    I may be able to throw some light onto the subject. Ben is quoting a chapter from Mike Stavrou's book 'Mixing with your Mind' from the chapter 9 Digital VS Analogue. Mike uses the analogy of a large skyscraper. He says that because of its enormous height it is hard to capture the whole thing in focus. He is saying the best sound from analog is in the middle of the skyscraper and this is similar to level. Right at the top transients and things will get distorted and right at the bottom the tape hiss starts to mask low level information.

    In Digital recording however Mike says the very top of the skyscraper is the cleanest and sharpest part of the picture and it gets progressively blurry as you go down to the bottom. Level wise we know that the maximum number of bits is used when our signal is high and as we go down lower in level we are using less bits to capture important information.

    Mike is saying that setting your digital reference level way down at -18 or even -20 db FS as Bob Katz points out may not be the best idea because we are not using all the available bits to capture most of the music or where most of our music lies level wise. Mike also suggests that a better digital ref level might be the Katz -12 db FS instead where more bits are being used. But this requires you to lift your entire gain structure up there and also requires some effort in preventing clipping as we now only have 12 db of headroom. (I actually work at -14 a lot of the time)

    But I must also remind Ben that Mike's book was written in 2003 and I really get the impression he is referring to 16 bit recording most of the time and if you are working at 16 bit level then what Mike is saying is probably true. But things have changed a lot since then and we are now in a different situation where 24 bit recording is common place. The skyscraper is different now and much more of it is in focus and the bits down the bottom are now -144 dB away from the very top of that sharp focus image.

    So Ben a very recent article in the said Audio Technology magazine has completely debunked this concept of having to record at higher levels in the digital world and with 24 bit recording we are not under that pressure anymore so the -18 dB or Katz -20 dB ref level is perfectly acceptable. You are not loosing any detail now even at -20 because the noise floor is now still -124 dB below that. In the 16 Bit world if you are using a ref level of -20 db with only 96 dB of dynamic range (and we know we really only have -90 dB  in fact)  then the noise floor is only sitting 70 dB below that which could be considered dangerous in terms of very important low level harmonic material. Not so with 24 bit though.

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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:56:44 (permalink)
    mudgel


    For a person who  makes so much of their status as a self proclaimed Master of Music Technology you could do with some courses in communication.

    I'm sorry Ben but if you mix your sounds the way you mix your words in constructing intelligible communications you are in deed in need of help.

    Sorry for the unkind words but you're just a bit too puffed up for your own good.

    So ballarat so you would be one of my enemies!!  What don't u understand??  Analog recording is different from digital and if you have been to any of the audio schools in Victoria you are behind the 8 ball what don't you understand??
     
    Don't forget I am quoting Stav and O'Neil and extrapolating in their ideas, you know what extrapolating means?
     
    In one article O'Neil suggests that indeed each outboard peice of audio equipment has an optimal level of operation, so you are suggesting one of the most respected mastering engineers in OZ is wrong.
     
    As for the camera analogy, are you also suggesting one of the most respected audio engineers in the world is wrong too.
     
    As for me 89% for sound and audio production (masters) knows nothing,
     
    Once again, Alice in Analog Land.
     
    Who are you I have so many enemies in Victoria, so reveal yourself!!
     
    **** communication, see Lennon vs The United States, you may learn something, your not related to the mudges in SA are u.
     
    Once agin I put forth I've had music on TV what have you done??
     
    I will fight you all night if I have too.
     
    Neb
     

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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 08:57:35 (permalink)
    Excuse me butting into the developing slanging match, but who is James?
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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:01:37 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans


    I may be able to throw some light onto the subject. Ben is quoting a chapter from Mike Stavrou's book 'Mixing with your Mind' from the chapter 9 Digital VS Analogue. Mike uses the analogy of a large skyscraper. He says that because of its enormous height it is hard to capture the whole thing in focus. He is saying the best sound from analog is in the middle of the skyscraper and this is similar to level. Right at the top transients and things will get distorted and right at the bottom the tape hiss starts to mask low level information.

    In Digital recording however Mike says the very top of the skyscraper is the cleanest and sharpest part of the picture and it gets progressively blurry as you go down to the bottom. Level wise we know that the maximum number of bits is used when our signal is high and as we go down lower in level we are using less bits to capture important information.

    Mike is saying that setting your digital reference level way down at -18 or even -20 db FS as Bob Katz points out may not be the best idea because we are not using all the available bits to capture most of the music or where most of our music lies level wise. Mike also suggests that a better digital ref level might be the Katz -12 db FS instead where more bits are being used. But this requires you to lift your entire gain structure up there and also requires some effort in preventing clipping as we now only have 12 db of headroom. (I actually work at -14 a lot of the time)

    But I must also remind Ben that Mike's book was written in 2003 and I really get the impression he is referring to 16 bit recording most of the time and if you are working at 16 bit level then what Mike is saying is probably true. But things have changed a lot since then and we are now in a different situation where 24 bit recording is common place. The skyscraper is different now and much more of it is in focus and the bits down the bottom are now -144 dB away from the very top of that sharp focus image.

    So Ben a very recent article in the said Audio Technology magazine has completely debunked this concept of having to record at higher levels in the digital world and with 24 bit recording we are not under that pressure anymore so the -18 dB or Katz -20 dB ref level is perfectly acceptable. You are not loosing any detail now even at -20 because the noise floor is now still -124 dB below that. In the 16 Bit world if you are using a ref level of -20 db with only 96 dB of dynamic range (and we know we really only have -90 dB  in fact)  then the noise floor is only sitting 70 dB below that which could be considered dangerous in terms of very important low level harmonic material. Not so with 24 bit though.


    What he says,but I still say it implies to 24 bit recording, and I will stick by it.  Thanks Jeff!!

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    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:08:24 (permalink)
    FastBikerBoy


    Excuse me butting into the developing slanging match, but who is James?
     
    James is anotherOZ dude who was interested in my zanny theories
     
    Neb



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    John T
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:09:03 (permalink)
    Stick by whatever you like, it won't make you right.

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    John T
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:10:17 (permalink)
    As I recall, we had more or less exactly this conversation about six months ago, only the topic was nominally "digital warmth". But it was essentially the same thing. Your argument then as now was a horribly circular "I think this because I think it". Surely you can see what's wrong with this type of reasoning?

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    trimph1
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:10:59 (permalink)



    Analogue camera...notice the warm fuzzy look to the image....

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

    Bushpianos
    #24
    trimph1
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:12:12 (permalink)
    BTW...is this another one of these threads that will get kicked downstairs?

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

    Bushpianos
    #25
    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:19:34 (permalink)
    John T


    Stick by whatever you like, it won't make you right.

    Well two people have clarified my posistion, Jeff and James, although Jeff says my theory is out of date, who are you what have you acheived.
     
    Take me on and I will eat you for breakfast, ever heard Ogre Battle by Queen, thats how I feel.
    So who are you? what are your quaifications? and what is your claim to fame?

    I've had music on TV,what have you done
     
    Want war then don't take on angry battle dwarfs MrT and I don't care if you are as big as Mt T I still shove a tank were the sun don't shine.
     
    Come on what have you achieved??  No degree's no music on TV, no non1 records just a lonley loser on a forum.
     
    Im only here because I cant sleep.
     
    You want me to be really nasty, just you try me, my vocabulary is huge and my verbosity if you envn know what that word mean would....
     
    Sorry Cake, I have been on my  best behaviour xxome of your members are ...

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    #26
    John T
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:23:37 (permalink)
    I don't make claims to fame, because I think they are pointless distractions from the actual merits of what people are saying. But if you like, I've had music on TV, in films, in video games, on records, played on the radio, played in clubs, sold in shops etc etc. None of that, of course, has *anything* to do with whether this idea of yours is right or not. Though by the standards you're operating under, you're kind of obliged to defer to me now.

    http://johntatlockaudio.com/
    Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
    #27
    Jind
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:32:32 (permalink)
    Wow - I see the original thread was locked after I logged off for the night.  I see the off topic conversation has blossomed into a best levels for digital recording conversation.  

    I think Jeff has pointed out a key factor - if we rely  upon older data to back current arguments we should probably make sure it's still the case.  I've read the book mentioned "Mixing With Your Mind" and found it interesting (not always in the good way, but interesting), it's pretty clear to me, given current knowledge, the section on Digital Audio was written prior to current 24 bit recording capabilities.  The fact that the author has chosen not to update the chapter in current releases is probably the reason this line of thought continues.  This has been debated in several public forums over the years and the consensus tends towards that chapter just being untrue with current technology. 

    As for the whole idea of having to prove ones merits as an audio expert - it's really a shame that somehow ones credentials entitles them to not be wrong?  Are we really thinking it's that simple?  Some of the brightest people I've read here or on other forums have very few professional credentials and some of the silliest things I've read have come from those espousing their "street cred" left and right.  You eventually have to seek out the truth for yourself and decide the sources you trust.  It's helpful if you see the sources you trust admitting their errors from time to time.

    Jind
     
    Sonar X2 PE, Cakewalk V Studio 100; Intel i7 w/ 16 GB Ram, MS Windows 8.1
    #28
    BenMMusTech
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:33:22 (permalink)
    John T


    I don't make claims to fame, because I think they are pointless distractions from the actual merits of what people are saying. But if you like, I've had music on TV, in films, in video games, on records, played on the radio, played in clubs, sold in shops etc etc. None of that, of course, has *anything* to do with whether this idea of yours is right or not. Though by the standards you're operating under, you're kind of obliged to defer to me now.

    Def, this is how I work, man why is it so hard to get through to you people, its how the world works.
     
    Look man my ideas are nutty but digital is different from analog but it is'nt and we need to be having these conversations because we still havent figured it out.
     
    It was in the 1940's when Bing and Les Paul inveneted/stole mutitrack tape recording, then it took another 40 years to perfect it: Queen Bohenian R, it's the same with digital.
     
    "I'm not saying I am better or greater tha Jesus Christ as thing or whatever he is" John Lennon.
     
    And that is my point here, I want to go forward and digtal works we just havent figured it out.
     
    Get Me
     
    Neb

    Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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    #29
    Saintom
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    Re:AnalogCameraVsDigitalCamera 2012/03/25 09:37:20 (permalink)



    Sometimes we see the light, Sometimes we stare at the light, and wonder why it is so bright...
    #30
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