drewfx1

dubdisciple
Some people are more likely to respond to a simple poll than post an opinion. So polls do have value in being a quick way to some up a simple opinion. They have their weaknesses but it is probably among those quickest ways to get general overview even if that overview is skewed

Ah, I see.
 
So you're saying that they're an easy way to get lousy data on what people too lazy to even post might think? 

No, I'm saying that in a forum envirnment, the quality of information will fluctuate anyway whether they are simply responding to poll or giving written responses. I have seen plenty of responses to questions that were just as useless as poll data. You are making the black and white assumption that anyone who does not post a reply is lazy. That is not only false but insulting. Some people come to forum to read but lack confidence among more experienced people to chime in. Some people fear over the top responses from overzealous fanatics on some topics. Some simply are short on time and would gladly check a simple poll. There are infinite possibilities besides laziness. There are advantages and disadvantages to any method of gathering data in an uncontrolled environment. This forum, like most tends to be very top heavy with very vocal, highly opinionated factions. Lots of useful information but also a lot of highly biased gibberish based on emotion too.

dubdisciple

drewfx1

dubdisciple
Some people are more likely to respond to a simple poll than post an opinion. So polls do have value in being a quick way to some up a simple opinion. They have their weaknesses but it is probably among those quickest ways to get general overview even if that overview is skewed

Ah, I see.
 
So you're saying that they're an easy way to get lousy data on what people too lazy to even post might think? 

No, I'm saying that in a forum envirnment, the quality of information will fluctuate anyway whether they are simply responding to poll or giving written responses. I have seen plenty of responses to questions that were just as useless as poll data. You are making the black and white assumption that anyone who does not post a reply is lazy. That is not only false but insulting. Some people come to forum to read but lack confidence among more experienced people to chime in. Some people fear over the top responses from overzealous fanatics on some topics. Some simply are short on time and would gladly check a simple poll. There are infinite possibilities besides laziness. There are advantages and disadvantages to any method of gathering data in an uncontrolled environment. This forum, like most tends to be very top heavy with very vocal, highly opinionated factions. Lots of useful information but also a lot of highly biased gibberish based on emotion too.

 
The only choices given were:
 
A) Black
B) White
 
You have to choose one of those two. 
 
If you happen to have an idea other than one of those two, or wish to express an unpopular opinion, it's devalued by the polling process before you even start. 
 
That's the way it works.
 
Please think about it.

I want to start a poll to see if this fred needs to discuss polls.
 
Or "Fish".

Anderton

Ruben
Whoa!... moderators who are non-Cakewalk employees ?!? - This is quite a "first" after over a decade of the "CW employees only" policy! That's a big move. (Insert eye-popping emoticon)

It's already happened. I'm not a Cakewalk employee, and I did not have mod status for quite a while after Gibson acquired Cakewalk. But I'm up at all hours and when the spam was out of control, I asked for mod powers to get rid of it. I was not asked to be a mod, and I'm not particularly sure anyone at Cakewalk wanted to have an outside person be a mod, but they needed help. So I guess I was the first crack in the wall

Yeeeaaahhhh... I don't think so.

Apples and oranges - you may not be a CW employee, but you are an executive (? I think) of Cakewalk's current owner - that puts you in a different class than those of us in the Great Unwashed. You asked for mod powers, including the ability to ban spammers, and CW certainly considered your position in evaluating your request. Until now, that request coming from any other non-employee forum member has been met with the response "No thanks".

However, you may have indeed "cracked the wall" so to speak and been partly responsible for CW new willingness to accept non-employee mods. So thanks for that.

Anderton

Which leads me to a suggestion - start looking for volunteer mods within your beta test group - at least there is a degree of commitment and loyalty (if that's what you want) there among your beta testers.

I would respectfully advise Cakewalk that technical knowledge and commitment to Cakewalk have little to do with being a good mod. Forum moderation requires a unique skill set, a thick skin, a lot of patience, a positive outlook, and understanding/tolerance. A good mod's first impulse should be to clarify a situation, neither defuse it nor squash it. Often clarification is all that's needed to stop problems.

What you say is true, but on the other hand, technical knowledge and commitment to CW does not preclude the ability to be a good mod. I wasn't suggesting that CW get all of their new mods from the beta group (although that may work out for them)... my suggestion was to start with the folks who have more than a casual relationship with CW - IOW, take a look at the beta group and see what you find. Move on if you need to. Rise and repeat. YMMV.
 

You might think of reinstating Bub.
 
I think he'd be a great Moderator.  Things would be running like clockwork within short order.

craigb

Ruben

craigb

Ruben
 If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?

We can do it now.  Three flags as a spammer and they're gone.  Any abuse of the process is handled by a Cakewalk mod.  

IINM, this method only removes one offending post at a time - it doesn't stop a spammer from making more posts. Banning does (to a degree).

 
Not true!  On the third flag the poster is banned until the flagged post can be reviewed by a moderator.  Yes, you'd have to flag each spam post three times for it to disappear (and bump another topic over it so it doesn't show in the main index), but the first priority is to get three flags on any spam post to ban the offender (which is usually a bot).

Meh. Still too much effort. Most of us have better things to do (like read the Software forum) than spending our time clicking on spam. Better to let the mods ban spammers - spammer goes away, end of story. Anderton already does this... saves members' time for more creative endeavors.  

drewfx1
The only choices given were:
 
A) Black
B) White
 
You have to choose one of those two. 
 
If you happen to have an idea other than one of those two, or wish to express an unpopular opinion, it's devalued by the polling process before you even start. 
 
That's the way it works.

CNN and Fox News polls, yes. But when I did polls on Harmony Central, they were the opening post in a thread and I would hope this software allows a similar option. People could add comments if they wanted. Sometimes I changed a poll shortly after posting if it needed another option.
 
For my purposes (to gauge interest in a topic), any option is better than no feedback at all; and a poll is easier to manage than a thread that's a lengthy collection of essay-type replies. And if someone's opinion is indeed "black" or "white," a poll accommodates that information better than having to write a reply with that word. If the answer is "gray," don 't post in the poll, and make a comment. If needed, modify the poll to include gray.

drewfx1
If you are convincing yourself that the numbers somehow mean more than they do, then that is the pseudoscience point I made earlier. It is very easy to fall into this trap, but you either have to do the work to establish the level of confidence in the numbers or else just disregard them. 
 
And if you can't have any real confidence in the quantified results because you don't know the margin of error and whatnot, then what's the point of doing a poll where the only added value is getting quantified results?

Don't think of forum polls as rigorous statistical data, because we both know they aren't. I think of them as a more formal version of anecdotal evidence.
 
If lots of people say they want Matrix View tips and only a couple say they don't, that doesn't mean anything about how many Cakewalk users use the Matrix View. But it does tell me that if I do Matrix View tips, a bunch of people will appreciate them. OTOH if lots of people say they don't want Matrix View tips and only a few say they do, then I would back off on including the tips in the thread, and write a blog article instead on the Matrix View so people who didn't want to see Matrix View tips wouldn't have to deal with them "cluttering up" the tips thread.

Anderton

drewfx1
The only choices given were:
 
A) Black
B) White
 
You have to choose one of those two. 
 
If you happen to have an idea other than one of those two, or wish to express an unpopular opinion, it's devalued by the polling process before you even start. 
 
That's the way it works.

CNN and Fox News polls, yes. But when I did polls on Harmony Central, they were the opening post in a thread and I would hope this software allows a similar option. People could add comments if they wanted. Sometimes I changed a poll shortly after posting if it needed another option.
 
For my purposes (to gauge interest in a topic), any option is better than no feedback at all; and a poll is easier to manage than a thread that's a lengthy collection of essay-type replies. And if someone's opinion is indeed "black" or "white," a poll accommodates that information better than having to write a reply with that word. If the answer is "gray," don 't post in the poll, and make a comment. If needed, modify the poll to include gray.

I don't have a problem with the way you are talking about using polls Craig, but I also have confidence that you would not misuse them or grossly misinterpret the results.
 
But just so you know - polls expressly measure popularity and some of us are not going to bother expressing our opinions if they're on the wrong side of a popularity contest. 
 
Arguing an unpopular opinion is difficult enough as it is (trust me on this one ). Trying to make that argument after it's been revealed right up top that 87% of the populous already disagrees with you (regardless of whether that should have any bearing) makes it not worth the bother because you know that a great many will just dismiss your arguments without even bothering to consider them.

Drew., it's just not that serious so you win. I am 100% wrong. Polls have absolutely no value and you are 100% right aboit any opinion you give. Problem solved.

dubdisciple
Drew., it's just not that serious so you win. I am 100% wrong. Polls have absolutely no value and you are 100% right aboit any opinion you give. Problem solved.

Ah, come on.
 
It's just a disagreement. We both express our opinions so that they might be considered and evaluated by each other and others and that's that. No big deal.
 
And personally I like to think that's it's always a possibility that we're both 100% wrong.

dubdisciple
agreed. You don't come off as an irrational person hellbent on being right. I just figired I would drop it so that it doesn't drag on. :)

Yeah I think I was getting to the point anyway where on a good day I try to tell myself that:
 
1. I've already made several attempts to get my point across as well as I can.
2. Given that, if it hasn't been embraced by now, then belaboring it endlessly prolly won't help. 
 
 
Besides, I'm sure those of use in the CH could put polls to excellent use in our never ending pursuit of art, philosophy and higher learning in general. 

This may all be fine and well but frankly, I don't much like change unless it is truly needed. The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", comes to mind. Then again, I know I have said things before about possibly having mods. Spammers seem to be not so much of a problem anymore and the people here are great. Now and then someone may get over excited about something but it seems to be a rare occurrence.
As far as the software forum and companies like IK posting about new products does not bother me in the least, I like it.
 
I've had problems ever since the "merge" with my biometrics fingerprint scanner. I am talking to egistec support to try and get a solution. Cakewalk forums are now the ONLY site I go to where the scanner icon will NEVER go off screen unless I disable the biometrics. It isn't a major problem, just an aggravation.... due to something I don't understand, but it wasn't a problem before the change and I NEVER had a problem logging into the forum or logging into my Cakewalk account. I remember reading about the reason for the merge but it hasn't really changed anything as far as my online Cakewalk experience except to cause my scanner to become an aggravation.
 
SO... lets be sure to thoroughly explore all the plus and minus scenarios of adding mods to the forums and I guess that is what we are doing, but (and I fully understand that I am a guest here in Cakewalk's house) do we really need more mods here? I was a member of the old HCGF back in the late 2000s, I joined in 2007. IT became the "wild west" with some users making several user accounts, starting arguments with themselves, and adding another identity to support one or the other of their alternate IDs. They would suck people in and then make fun of them. It got so bad that a user used someone's personal information to contact their employer to try and get them fired over something they posted... we are FAR FAR from that here. Just saying...
 
I'll go with whatever people with more sense than I have decide on.
 
Julien
 

Ruben
Meh. Still too much effort. Most of us have better things to do (like read the Software forum) than spending our time clicking on spam. Better to let the mods ban spammers - spammer goes away, end of story.

 
Not end of story. Spammers are relentless to the point where they sometimes are more like denial of service attacks. They often have dynamic IPs so blocking the IP doesn't make any difference. Unfortunately, constant attacks require constant counter-attacks.
 
Vigilant members who flag spam often stop it before the spammer finds there's an open gateway and starts pouring in thousands of messages. Personally, I'm glad these people are willing to make the minimal effort that improves the quality of life for all of us.

We always seem to have spam over long holiday weekends, where the CW employees are gone.  I don't have any problem with someone from the community stepping in over the weekends.  Having it there for a few hours is a lot better than having it there for three days.