rtucker55
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/30 23:46:02
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+1 to what bitflipper just said.
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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bapu
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 00:54:28
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2014/08/31 07:44:11
+1.1 to what rtucker55 sed.
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Ruben
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 01:25:43
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Whoa!... moderators who are non-Cakewalk employees ?!? - This is quite a "first" after over a decade of the "CW employees only" policy! That's a big move. (Insert eye-popping emoticon) After reading through this thread, one thing that stands out for me are the posts and comments about potential new mods - posts about suggested rules to keep new mods from abusing power, comments regarding methods of redress for members slighted by the new mods, concern about members' ability to appeal to CW Admins, and many more related comments. Now some of the posts may contain great ideas, but what stands out is that many forum members seem quite uneasy about CW's decision to use mods who are essentially peers. Most everyone is saying "great idea, more mods", but many are also qualifying their support by asking for rules and restrictions on the new mods, and the concern is significant - members are clearly worried about being treated fairly. Of course, it's CW's prerogative to implement new mods and to make the rules governing them, but the undercurrent of concern from forum members about being treated fairly is palpable. CW may be entering a situation where they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Which leads me to a suggestion - start looking for volunteer mods within your beta test group - at least there is a degree of commitment and loyalty (if that's what you want) there among your beta testers. You may even find all of the volunteer mods you need there. (Disclaimer for the cynics: I am NOT a beta tester). If after that you still need more mods, start with members like scook, who's post count must consist of 99% helpful posts. The general membership seeing respected members like that being promoted to moderator many ease some of the concerns of anxious forum members. Or, you could make members really anxious by choosing members who have post counts consisting primarily of inane posts in the Coffeehouse about bacon/some guy named Fred/upstairs-downstairs/other limited-intellect content. 
post edited by Ruben - 2014/08/31 01:46:51
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Ruben
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 01:26:03
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Willy Jones [Cakewalk
Greetings Friends,
Today we'd like to share with you our first round of ideas for some changes to the forum and get your feedback.
Feedback Part 1: I like the combined "legacy" software forums. I would even include, as some have already mentioned, adding older version of Sonar to the "legacy" sub-forum (or at least pre-S8). Some may argue for separate P5 or older Sonar sub-forums, but since P5, Sonar 8X/7/older, and other older versions of CW software are becoming "old software" and their user base is diminishing, it seems like a good space-saving and organizational move. The Feedback Loop sounds good as long as you can keep it strictly about feedback and delete the disagreements that turn into arguments over contrary opinions. Anderton
I love the idea of a separate forum for problem reports. Sometimes people post valuable input on some kind of problem that gets lost when it ends up being post #74 on page 5 of a thread. However I think to be effective, this is where moderation would really come into play to merge duplicate topics and encourage people to provide more information about a problem. I've seen these kinds of forums for other companies and when done poorly, they're whinefests that accomplish nothing but when done well, they make huge contributions by centralizing data and soliciting useful input from the community. I also like the idea of a separate problem report sub-forum, and I think Craig's suggestions would help to keep that section clean and relevant. Anderton
As to the Coffee House, off-topic forums are always a hot potato...but people are people, not just software users. Having a place for off-topic posts also keeps those posts out of the main forums. One option is to make them password-protected so forum regulars can get in, while keeping out the +91 Swami Babaji types and trolls. If this could be easily implemented, I think it would relieve a lot of frustration over spam. Willy Jones [Cakewalk
Rain
No Coffee House?
That was a mistake - fixed it.
Ha!... Too bad. I think you should nuke the Coffeehouse (again)... it's a giant waste of server disc space.  And with the disc space you save, you could re-enable image uploading, a popular request.
post edited by Ruben - 2014/08/31 01:54:31
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Ruben
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 02:10:40
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Feedback Part 2: The Software sub-forum dwardzala
I'd like to see Audio Hardware & DAW Building be kept separate from Software.
A BIG +1 on this one - the current Software forum is highly visited and notably helpful - I feel that it would be counter-productive to merge this with Hardware (which I think is better as its own sub-forum).
In the software forum there are about 20+ threads a day from people or companies noting new products or deals (which is great, btw) which will drown out the hardware and DAW threads that are often very informative.
This is a good point - going forward I'm not sure that we'll actually allow these types of posts on our forum. Let's face it, KVR is a much better source of information for this type of info and we've already seen a few incidents with representatives of another company getting into arguments with users on our forum. The DAW and hardware sections are useful complements to our products. The software forum is starting to smell a lot more like a spam bin/advertising bulletin board. There is a lot of good discussion around software that is valid and helpful to users. Would it make sense to limit the scope of conversation to discussion about compatibility/tools/features of a software product and not allow advertisements or promotions?
Yes, but the "promotion" part is up for interpretation. From reading and using the software section, I can see that there is a lot of good and productive discussion. I understand CW's reluctance to have competitive software promoted in your forum, but using plug-ins as an example, the current Software forum provides users with numerous plug-in options that either add functionality to Sonar or give users options for comparison with Sonar features (which many times end up promoting a Sonar feature over the 3rd party alternative). One forum member wrote "I like it that experienced and trusted users have the opportunity to give their thoughts and opinions on the stuff that is out there. It is unfortunate that there have been several 3rd Party Companies that have gotten on the Software Forum and got in spats with users, but I guess if it was me, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, I would just regulate the 3rd Party Companies" (Italics mine). Perhaps a compromise of this sort for continuing the Software section as-is, with (as examples) the exclusion of promoting any competitive DAW software or posts from their vendors/devs, or posts from new users with less than X number of posts. Lastly, wouldn't you prefer users get info here and hang around this forum rather than sending them to KVR?
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Ruben
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 02:31:31
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Feedback Part 3: "Whipping Boys" Willy Jones [Cakewalk
AndertonI don't think the motivation here is to use moderation to sanitize the forums, but to organize the forums for maximum effectiveness, keep out the spammers, gently steer things in the right direction if things go off-course, and not have the community think no one is listening.
This is basically 100% the idea. Improve organization, minimize spam and optimize how feedback and problems are delivered to Cakewalk staff. (I wish I had another cool 'z' word to use). (The word you are looking for is "finalize" but spelling it that way really ticks off the British forum members.) I realize that this is how CW envisions the new mods, but as soon as a new mod locks the wrong someone's thread, or even tries to "gently steer" a touchy member in the right direction there is the possibility of hurt feelings. While CW can create all of the rules they want to minimize these issues, there will be times when noses are knocked out of joint and those disjointed members react. I'm not trying to poo-poo the new mod idea, but since CW will be pulling volunteers from a (somewhat) peer group there are going to be members who disagree, and some of those disagreeing will not be able to let it go which means that some of the new mods will be "reported" to CW which will, in turn, cause more interaction for CW Admins rather than less. And knowing how people are, there will also be threads popping up in the CH that will be complaints/criticisms/attacks pointed at certain mods. You can hope and plan for the best, but reality is that since most forum members are human beings, conflict and whipping boys are inevitable. wizard71
I agree that pointless bickering should be eliminated
One person's "pointless bickering" is another person's spirited discussion. My point being that it can be tricky to decide whether to intervene or let things take their natural course. I'm aware that this has been hard enough for CW employees - it may be even harder for the new mods, which will again lead to the WB phenomenon. Willy Jones [Cakewalk
Here is a thought to not make moderators feel like they're tied to the whipping post (sorry couldn't help it). What if community moderators didn't ban anybody but instead only locked/moved threads, edited subjects to indicate solved and encouraged posters to provide more info where/when necessary? A ban would have to still come from
somebody at Cakewalk after it has been discussed with the moderator group. If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?
post edited by Ruben - 2014/08/31 02:34:59
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bapu
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Ruben
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 03:19:26
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Anderton
There have been a few trolls, but the community basically humiliated them so they apparently went off to find someplace that didn't have intelligent people. OK, that was funny.
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craigb
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 03:47:27
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Ruben
If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?
We can do it now. Three flags as a spammer and they're gone. Any abuse of the process is handled by a Cakewalk mod. I can tell you that you DON'T want to give punishment power to a non-CW employee.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Anderton
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 04:04:46
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Ruben Whoa!... moderators who are non-Cakewalk employees ?!? - This is quite a "first" after over a decade of the "CW employees only" policy! That's a big move. (Insert eye-popping emoticon) It's already happened. I'm not a Cakewalk employee, and I did not have mod status for quite a while after Gibson acquired Cakewalk. But I'm up at all hours and when the spam was out of control, I asked for mod powers to get rid of it. I was not asked to be a mod, and I'm not particularly sure anyone at Cakewalk wanted to have an outside person be a mod, but they needed help. So I guess I was the first crack in the wall  I really don't think anyone has had problems with how I've conducted my modness because I really haven't done much. Mostly it's just been housekeeping - killing spam, fixing typos, deleting duplicate posts, and starting topics I thought would interest people. When I saw the beginnings of flame wars, I didn't ban anyone. I started what I thought would be interesting topics and sure enough, people gravitated to those instead. A successful mod is not a cop, but more like a talk show host who creates an environment for discussion, throws out topics, gives people a wide berth, and has a light touch. People commenting here seem to think the purpose of a mod is to be a negative force that dispenses discipline. No! A mod should be a positive force that creates a healthy environment for discussion. This creates a feedback loop where the forum continues to improve. Everyone knows the talk show host can always press the mute button and get the last word, which in itself tends to discourage misbehavior. It's like not speeding because you know there might be a cop in the bushes. Most flame wars burn out. Trying to put them out just makes things worse. Which leads me to a suggestion - start looking for volunteer mods within your beta test group - at least there is a degree of commitment and loyalty (if that's what you want) there among your beta testers. I would respectfully advise Cakewalk that technical knowledge and commitment to Cakewalk have little to do with being a good mod. Forum moderation requires a unique skill set, a thick skin, a lot of patience, a positive outlook, and understanding/tolerance. A good mod's first impulse should be to clarify a situation, neither defuse it nor squash it. Often clarification is all that's needed to stop problems. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it's that big a deal. Mods should do as little as possible - "first, do no harm." The rest will take care of itself because overall, this is a family. Occasionally a dysfunctional family, but a family nonetheless.
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Anderton
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 04:06:06
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Let's take this one step further: let's not look for forum MODS. Let's look for forum HOSTS who happen to have mod skill sets.
In fact, I'll volunteer to host the Sonar X Series forum. I'm already kinda doing that anyway and no one seems to mind. Well, except for the guy who was SUCH a professional and whose time was so EXTREMELY VALUABLE that he expected the forum to be his own private tutors because it was too much effort to type a few words into a search engine. The one thing that really WILL bring out my Mongolian blood (not a joke, it really is in there) is if someone abuses the good nature of this community.
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dubdisciple
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 04:12:54
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bitflipper
RE: Software forum: keep it as it is.
Yes, it does get cluttered. Sometimes I think I'm reading directly from Larry's email In-Box. But I'm OK with that, because within all that volume there are occasional gems.
Don't ban vendors. Yes, sometimes they just add clutter, too (get yer beatz makin' iOS app here, all the big producers use it!) but the majority are of interest to at least some forum readers. Example: Greg Schlaepfer's current thread re a free timbale lib. Sure, it's a gimmick to drive people to his website and generate buzz. I don't have a problem with that. Everybody thanked him in the thread. That's how you know it isn't spam.
+1 I don't think we get an overload of solicitation. In fact I see more of it on other sites. In fact, the majority of posts in software are generally Larry posting helpful links many of us are interested in. Even the debates there are pretty tame compared to main forum and those who are on different ends of it seem to be pretty civil towasrds each other most of the time. I have seen much nastier arguments in main forum on topics ranging from staff view to the definition of a limiter.
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craigb
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 04:23:27
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Anderton
In fact, I'll volunteer to host the Sonar X Series forum. I'm already kinda doing that anyway and no one seems to mind. Well, except for the guy who was SUCH a professional and whose time was so EXTREMELY VALUABLE that he expected the forum to be his own private tutors because it was too much effort to type a few words into a search engine. The one thing that really WILL bring out my Mongolian blood (not a joke, it really is in there) is if someone abuses the good nature of this community.
Love it!  BTW - What about making a Vendor child forum? Then make it so they can only push their wares in that one area.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Anderton
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 04:27:24
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☄ Helpfulby craigb 2014/08/31 09:03:40
Speaking of clarification, one more thing before I head off to bed...the opinions I'm expressing are my own, and do not represent Cakewalk. Nor have I discussed these opinions with anyone from Cakewalk.
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 04:55:36
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I really only use the software forum. I don't think it needs much policing. Most are smart enough to know what's acceptable on a Cakewalk forum.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 05:33:39
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bitflipper
RE: Software forum: keep it as it is.
Yes, it does get cluttered. Sometimes I think I'm reading directly from Larry's email In-Box. But I'm OK with that, because within all that volume there are occasional gems.
Don't ban vendors. Yes, sometimes they just add clutter, too (get yer beatz makin' iOS app here, all the big producers use it!) but the majority are of interest to at least some forum readers. Example: Greg Schlaepfer's current thread re a free timbale lib. Sure, it's a gimmick to drive people to his website and generate buzz. I don't have a problem with that. Everybody thanked him in the thread. That's how you know it isn't spam.
I could not have put it better. I would like to see a bit more discussion and recommendation rather than just "here is a good deal" but people do jump in with opinions on many threads. Vendors like Greg and the late Steven Howell have contributed a lot to these forums with little sense of spamming. My shortcut takes me to the software forum; I look there first, and then move on to the Sonar X forum and sometimes the coffee house.
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Ruben
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 09:45:42
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craigb
Ruben
If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?
We can do it now. Three flags as a spammer and they're gone. Any abuse of the process is handled by a Cakewalk mod. IINM, this method only removes one offending post at a time - it doesn't stop a spammer from making more posts. Banning does (to a degree).
I can tell you that you DON'T want to give punishment power to a non-CW employee.
Maybe they do - it's Cakewalk's prerogative.
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chuckebaby
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 10:10:25
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southpaw3473
Just my two cents but I am one who finds the Software forum to be an integral part of Sonar for me. The products that we discuss here have direct bearing on my total Sonar experience. I have gotten great advice from a ton of very helpful people. It is wicked nice to have everything in one place and not have to go to 27 different forums (none of which I find as helpful or as civil as the Sonar forums) to get plugin and software information.
Many of the absolute go-to plugins that I use I picked up on recommendations from folks in the Software Forum. I hope it stays!
now theres a guy from New England like myself
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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rtucker55
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 10:17:19
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The '3 flags and your out' policy seems to be effective as I no longer see the occasional posts about buying cheap Rolex watches or Nike shoes or Cheap Med's, ect.
The forum members and Cakewalk staff seem to be doing a good job of working together here.
I'm just curious what is driving the desire/need to have external mod's? Are there not enough Cakewalk employees to handle the load from the 'Report Abuse' flag? As forum members we are not privy to the number of 'Report Abuse' flags that are received which is why I inquire about an issue that is invisible to me.
Even with External mod's I don't see how this will reduce the Cakewalk workload if the External mod's are not empowered to fix reported issues without Cakewalks involvement.
As a side note, given the new forum software will we ever be able to upload our own avatars as we once were? As you can tell from my current avatar my old one got whacked...
Kind regards,
Rick
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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bitflipper
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 11:27:31
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If I lost my avatar I'd have to update it with a picture that shows my true age. I like to pretend I still have hair, and that it's not grey.
The #1 feature that's missing here is polling. I know that the software supports it, and I think Craig has mentioned it in this thread. Opinions, as they say, are like buttholes: everybody's got one and nobody needs another one. But if you collect enough of them, the collective wisdom of the crowd begins to emerge and has value.
#2 is the ability to upload images. Many times I've wanted to include an illustration with a post but decided it wasn't worth the bother to upload it to a third party host and then link to it.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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craigb
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 11:30:46
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Ruben
craigb
Ruben
If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?
We can do it now. Three flags as a spammer and they're gone. Any abuse of the process is handled by a Cakewalk mod.
IINM, this method only removes one offending post at a time - it doesn't stop a spammer from making more posts. Banning does (to a degree).
Not true! On the third flag the poster is banned until the flagged post can be reviewed by a moderator. Yes, you'd have to flag each spam post three times for it to disappear (and bump another topic over it so it doesn't show in the main index), but the first priority is to get three flags on any spam post to ban the offender (which is usually a bot).
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Anderton
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 12:08:25
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bitflipper
The #1 feature that's missing here is polling. +1 on polls.
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drewfx1
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 12:19:39
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Personally I'm not a big fan of polls as their value in terms of providing any kind of meaningful data is often vastly overestimated.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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bapu
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 13:06:08
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Anderton
bitflipper
The #1 feature that's missing here is polling.
+1 on polls.
I want to know what the other options are before I cast my vote.
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bitflipper
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 14:13:20
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drewfx1
Personally I'm not a big fan of polls as their value in terms of providing any kind of meaningful data is often vastly overestimated.
I share your skepticism, Steve. Sometimes all you get is the prevailing whim of the moment, as shaped by marketing, fleeting fads and non-representative forum chatter. Polls can be manipulated, poorly conceived or pre-selective. "Which iPhone beat-generator do you like best?" is pretty useless unless it includes one or more "Fish" options. The key to successful polling is to aggregate a large enough sample set to be statistically significant. If 5 people say "the only feature I care about is the Matrix View", that tells you only that 5 people use the Matrix View, nothing more. You cannot extrapolate that to the other 5,000 registered members and who knows how many unregistered casual browsers. Same if the majority chooses "Fish". Plus it's the only way to engage forum readers who would otherwise not participate by posting. Not everybody's as quick to jump in with an opinion as you and I are. Consequently, a thread that consists of a dialog between just the prolific posters may not be representative of the larger community.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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drewfx1
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 14:41:42
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bitflipper
The key to successful polling is to aggregate a large enough sample set to be statistically significant. If 5 people say "the only feature I care about is the Matrix View", that tells you only that 5 people use the Matrix View, nothing more. You cannot extrapolate that to the other 5,000 registered members and who knows how many unregistered casual browsers. Same if the majority chooses "Fish".
But if you don't do the statistics and whatnot then it's pure pseudoscience - the number is meaningless, but the fact that it's a number seems to add weight to the findings. And if the number is going to be meaningless anyway, why bother trying to quantify it? On top of that, it's often pseudoscience in support of a fallacy when used for anything other than discussions of personal preference. Do you really want to risk having to argue with the "all knowing" majority in polls on, say, bit depth, sample rate or something like that here?
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Anderton
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 14:42:37
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bitflipper
drewfx1
Personally I'm not a big fan of polls as their value in terms of providing any kind of meaningful data is often vastly overestimated.
Plus it's the only way to engage forum readers who would otherwise not participate by posting. Not everybody's as quick to jump in with an opinion as you and I are. Consequently, a thread that consists of a dialog between just the prolific posters may not be representative of the larger community.
I've used polls a lot in the past, but not for statistical purposes due to the reasons Bitflipper mentions. However, it can help set priorities. For example in the tip of the day thread, I would like to have put up a poll where you could choose either: 1. Please do more tips about Matrix View. 2. I don't use it, nuke the Matrix View tips. 3. At least do some, I'd like to know more about Matrix View. Now, this would not give me statistics on how many people use or don't Matrix view, but if a lot of people cared enough to post they did or did not want tips, I'd find that helpful.
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drewfx1
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 14:46:43
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Anderton
I've used polls a lot in the past, but not for statistical purposes due to the reasons Bitflipper mentions. However, it can help set priorities. For example in the tip of the day thread, I would like to have put up a poll where you could choose either:
1. Please do more tips about Matrix View.
2. I don't use it, nuke the Matrix View tips.
3. At least do some, I'd like to know more about Matrix View.
Now, this would not give me statistics on how many people use or don't Matrix view, but if a lot of people cared enough to post they did or did not want tips, I'd find that helpful.
But the question is: Is there any need for you to quantify this, and do you get any less info if you just ask the same question without putting in the format of a poll?
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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dubdisciple
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 14:55:15
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drewfx1
Anderton
I've used polls a lot in the past, but not for statistical purposes due to the reasons Bitflipper mentions. However, it can help set priorities. For example in the tip of the day thread, I would like to have put up a poll where you could choose either:
1. Please do more tips about Matrix View.
2. I don't use it, nuke the Matrix View tips.
3. At least do some, I'd like to know more about Matrix View.
Now, this would not give me statistics on how many people use or don't Matrix view, but if a lot of people cared enough to post they did or did not want tips, I'd find that helpful.
But the question is:
Is there any need for you to quantify this, and do you get any less info if you just ask the same question without putting in the format of a poll?
Some people are more likely to respond to a simple poll than post an opinion. So polls do have value in being a quick way to some up a simple opinion. They have their weaknesses but it is probably among those quickest ways to get general overview even if that overview is skewed
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drewfx1
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Re: [Announcement] Community Updates
2014/08/31 15:10:56
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dubdisciple
Some people are more likely to respond to a simple poll than post an opinion. So polls do have value in being a quick way to some up a simple opinion. They have their weaknesses but it is probably among those quickest ways to get general overview even if that overview is skewed
Ah, I see. So you're saying that they're an easy way to get lousy data on what people too lazy to even post might think? 
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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