History Lesson:  It's unfortunately a part of human nature to commit these types of acts against other humans and has been since the first humans walked the earth.  The number of deaths is actually less now but people don't realize it because each small attack becomes hyped-up news instantly available to the bulk of the world's population.  As Stalin said, "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic."  Any one remember Hitler, Pol Pot, Edi Amin or Genghis Khan (to name just a very few)?  Feel free to add in any "ethnic cleansing" (cowboys and indians?) or any political or religious organization/movement/gang that has killed to promote their cause. 

So, who's to blame?  Everyone and no one.

What should you do?  Deal with it however you can, support the survivors and participate more in your own communities to help youth realize that life HAS value which will help reduce future occurances.

What should you not do?  Use it to promote whatever actual or purely nonsensical narrow view you happen to have about why it happened and how to prevent it.  I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the latest generation's feeling that they are entitled to get things without earning them, since that only fosters a lack of self-worth which they then project on everyone else.

My thoughts go out to the parents and the members of the community.

Sincerely, Craig B (ITRMN) - Prior target of the (in)famous Brenda Spencer school shooting and close resident to the Clackamas Mall shooting of a couple of days ago.

This guy got up this morning and shot him mother in the face then went to her school and executed the kids in her class. That is VERY personal. I do not pertend to understand it but I know enough to realize that his actions were totally against his mother an everything she loved... he really wanted to hurt her, even after she was dead. There is something much deeper here than any society, culture, music, gun, or game. There was something deep and dark in him regarding his mother.

We will learn more in the next days.

J

Everybody has to ask, what is the cause of these horrific school shootings? How did a 20 year old "KID" get his hands on those guns? Why would his mother buy a bushmaster AR-15? Why would the shooter kill his mother and her class full of kids? How did the shooter get into a school that requires a buzz in entry wearing black battle fatigues and carrieing guns? How can so many screwups happen all at once? 20 dead kids, who was watching?

Turns out the shooter was "mentally disabled." 

tragic is all I can say at this time...my heart reaches out to those who lost loved ones ...


edit, reason:  dropped letters

It is the few who wish to control the many who do this to us.

 
We will have to agree to agree !!!
 
Well said.
 
Julien

They're saying he broke through the front door somehow now. One set of trained eyes could have stopped the incident.

I find truth in practically every single issue that has been raised in this thread.  How can that be?  Every single one of us is a product of 2 things: Heredity and Environment.

Yes, every one of us has been exposed to media, things we've seen, things we've heard, things we've felt.  Every one of us has had some sort of upbringing, be it bad or good, happy or sad, attended to or ignored.  Every one of us has had events of various sorts take place in our lives.  Every one of us has had people touch our lives in various ways, especially parental figures.  The list goes on and on, and this is our ENVIRONMENT.  Much of our "learned behaviors" arise from the continued exposure to our environment.

And of course we were all born of our predecessor's genes, and the predisposition toward certain inherited behaviors is well documented. (our HEREDITY)

Unfortunately, how certain individuals REACT to their circumstances varies widely from person to person, and there are those who do not handle or cope with the realities of their plight as well as others.  In fact, there are those who do not even PERCEIVE REALITY the same as "normal" people, and to the degree that they distort reality determines their Neurosis or Psychosis.  I guess this is where we should ask the question "Why?".

All of have our own little neuroses... little quirks we have picked up as we have adapted to some combination of the inherited and environmental circumstances in our lives.  Thank God, most of us "normal people" don't have such distorted perceptions of reality that we can go on with daily life without serious consequences, even though we're not "perfect".

And then there are those whose lives have been shaped in such a way, that in their psychosis, they just do not have the same reality as us "normal people".  What exists for you and I may exist in a totally different way for these people.  And the way they react to "their reality" may produce what most people would consider to be unacceptable, inappropriate behaviors... such as what we saw this morning in Conn.  Thus terms like "psycho", "psychopath", schitzo, etc. for the MENTAL DISORDERS which these terms represent.

No, media doesn't kill people.  Guns don't kill people.  Knives and bombs don't kill people.  Rap music doesn't kill people.  .............. People's behavior kills people.

Just sayin'....

tbosco



No, media doesn't kill people.  Guns don't kill people.  Knives and bombs don't kill people.  Rap music doesn't kill people.  .............. People's behavior kills people.

Just sayin'....

But what determines (or facilitates) peoples behaviour?
 

Simply put, crazy is crazy. And this is crazy turned evil, an awful turn of events. There are no larger points to be made about society, culture, gun rights, etc. 

The very nature of this shooting; killing spree and for a family to lose a child/children, family member(s) or friend(s) in this way is extremely unsettling and will remain in memory that will haunt forever.  This is cause for concern for all.  I can't even begin to put in words to describe 'feelings' of how hard this hits. :( 

As for the murderer; obviously anyone who does this sort of crime must be mentally ill to do such a hideous crime. 

Public Awareness and Report System:
Mental health care is most likely held back by the stigma that surrounds people who suffer from a mental disability or any disability and for anyone deem unfit to participate in the workplace who then receives usually inadequate entitlements; entitlements should never to be coined as; hand-outs or for free loaders; unfortunately 'stigma' along with discrimination and prejudice is common in all countries; 

That said; clearly there needs to be; (1) education in regards to (2) public awareness of the seriousness of this and (3) report system; a hot-line for people to report any suspect behavior to mental health carers. There are tell-tale signs that experts can list for people to be aware and report. 

Point is; we need to catch it (them) before it leads to another shooting incident where innocent children, women and men are killed. 

Australia is a perfect example of very strict 'gun laws' most likely the most strictest laws in the world but still unfortunately does not work to prevent shootings; killings, read this news article {doh} for more than 10 years they've been talking about fixing the problem but if anything it's gotten worse;   

I can rightfully give a true indication of what it's like living in Sydney (scary). I lived there for most of my life, just about every freaking night I hear gun shots. Just about every week another shooting incident. Police would randomly setup road checks to search for weapons. 

Mental health care and the stigma that surrounds people with disabilities and who receive 'entitlements' (support) is appalling, a lot of these people live in hardship; 

IMO mental health issues such as; depression, stress and hardship can lead 'some' to very aggressive; violent behavior.  

When that hardship snaps; BANG we have another murder suicide incident!! As for what motivated (caused) that incident in CT; I hope there is an answer (and to confirm), we need to better understand and put in place preventative measures, and even if it wasn't 100 percent effective, at least it should reduce the incident of such crimes and save lives. 

There also needs to be better security systems in check such as; airport style security check at the gate (entrances) sure it's a hassle and seems excessive and costly but I'm OK that, at least have walk-thru 'scanning' for metals; weapons. These security measures need to be at all schools and other places such as social events. 

Doc_Hollingsworth

jamesyoyo


Simply put, crazy is crazy. And this is crazy turned evil, an awful turn of events. There are no larger points to be made about society, culture, gun rights, etc. 

James I disagree with your statement of "crazy is crazy." I have had a wife who has suffered off and on from depression and a daughter who has been diagnosed as bi-polar. I don't expect either to go out and kill a classroom of children. Either would find it unconscionable. 


Both are forms of mental illness which does not make them "crazy." They are conditions that affect how they feel and affects their ability to function as normal people in day to day situations when they have an onset of their respective conditions. Both wife and daughter take their meds when they should but at times they think they don't need them anymore because they think they are ok.

I don't think you could be more wrong, Doc. Suffering from mental illness does not make you crazy; acting crazy is what makes you bona fide crazy. And this monster's mental illness+crazy+evil equals the CT tragedy.

jbow


This guy got up this morning and shot him mother in the face then went to her school and executed the kids in her class. That is VERY personal. I do not pertend to understand it but I know enough to realize that his actions were totally against his mother an everything she loved... he really wanted to hurt her, even after she was dead. There is something much deeper here than any society, culture, music, gun, or game. There was something deep and dark in him regarding his mother.

We will learn more in the next days.

J

You're probably right, but nobody asks about family issues unless the perpetrators are just being brats - aka - no need to be packing heat; yet, I heard that he got his mother during an argument. Which not only touches the family dynamic, but the domestic abuse argument as well. That player for the Chiefs who also took his life and his girlfriend's over an argument and this happened not even a month ago.

But yes, the family issue is only talked about during legal/domestic disputes or when dealing with wayward children/teenagers and unfortunately, young adults. However, you do see how all the stuff on top of the supposed contempt for his mother fits as well. As I said though, with how that is thrown around in the media, but due to it existing in reality. I mean, everybody and his/her mama (no offense) has to be psycho-analyzed. 

Everyone has issues, but like you said, if his issues stemmed from something his mother did to him/not do for him, that's one thing, but as often as parents say: "Don't be afraid to come to me for anything," they may now say: "I'm afraid to come to you for anything!" Ironically, perhaps they were afraid to come to you fearing you might go off. (Hopefully, not like the shooter did killing his mother)

It's also said that people are products of their environment. Sure, everyone spoke nice of his mother (of course they are when she's dead); however, no one knows what went on at home (this goes beyond the argument that did her in). She could have been just as violent as he was - her occupation in society means nothing as its just a front really. So, perhaps she had deep-seeded issues with her son? An argument goes two ways and the same thing always occurs - catch the one retaliating! I bet if she were alive, they'd offer the usual "family counseling."

Again, I agree that it goes deeper than the small issues folks tend to cite often, but there's this societial idea that families don't have problems or they do, but will work them out. Unfortunately, solving such is done in the worst way possible. So, yeah, he really wanted to oust his mother, but who's to say she didn't wanna oust him? And this goes back to my previous point regarding the gender wars. (Leaving the kids out of this) If he had shot his father, it'd come off as "Oh, he was really wrong, but this is how men solve problems!" and yet the shooter was a guy - only made worse because he shot a woman - yes, his mother, but a woman.

It's that damn "Women and children" first statement! I'm talking generalities not specifics because clearly what happened in CT as well as CO, VA, OR and who knows where else is awful. Ironically, the over-sensationalized case regarding the Anthonys and you heard the same stuff there, too. "They have/had a very strained relationship and perhaps before their child/grandchild died! So, was this heinous act in retaliation?" Oh, the months we had to endure!

Both times we had the raging factor: children. If in the Anthony saga, her child was 26 and not 6 (would've been when she died), no one would give a rat's behind! If "Mrs. CT Teacher" was teaching a class full of high-schoolers/college students (and we've had enough of those shootings as well), there'd be less rage; however, the older classes have parents whom in those above four shootings who've lost children. "No parent should have to deal with the loss of a child (death is not the point). Yes, but "no matter what the child's age," should be included in this statement as well.

Yet, the same stuff has been said about each of the shooters' personalities, demeanors, what they've been exposed to, but nothing about the family dynamic being the cause of what or how they acted. You mean to tell me that I need to shoot/kill a family member, so the family dynamic issue can be touched as I prefer not to act like a brat which is or should be considered normal. But again, if she were alive, she, as do most parents (and even in media) feel as if they have done wrong by their children if they turn out wayward, but this is after the fact. She'll never get the chance to regret if she did do something wrong, but neither will he.

I don't think one can separate family from society because either your family becomes your society or society becomes your family. Much like if the parents don't parent their children leaving that up to the media instead (who they ironically and erroneously) blame; yet, you hear where society (because it's shown in media) is telling the parents to do this. (ie: Parents who let their children run all over them and just say "Oh, well," and dare I say children who have deep-seeded issues and are out for blood or when children have more sense with the way they act/carry themselves/speak then their parents)

Families are screwed up these days and society has plenty to do with it. As you said. he got up thinking he'd kill his mother, but his is not the only "child-kills-parent(s)" case out there. The Dahlmer boys ate -- yes ate theirs, but of course anything to that extreme can certainly blamed on Hollywood. There was also the boy who killed and locked his parents in their bedroom, so he could party! I guess there was no "First Birthday" party for him, but are tons of murderous-holiday movies out there. Perhaps he liked them? No way could he have had issues with his parents. They've got tons of "Unsolved Mysteries" (Title and other likewise shows) about why people "Snap(ped)" and they have done recent events, too. Perhaps this event will be included?

You still don't see how all the above couldn't or didn't contribute to him thinking and doing what he did? Maybe his mother was the root of the problem. What I wanna know is didn't she know or at least sense something was wrong or even acknowledge that he may have been the root of her problem? You know how America loves to swim up and down Denial River!

As I've said before, some methods people use to solve problems are deplorable which is why the uproar regarding the gun laws (and yes, I know there are other means to kill; I've seen plenty of movies); however, this won't solve the problem. It'll just lead to more regs and regs until nothing is allowed to be used. It's like the "political-correctness" garbage - only with objects while it still exists with words.

I thought and still think the whole "What about the children!" cry is garbage because it's taught they have to be shielded from everything and they do not nor should they be! However, after something like this while I haven't changed my mind, I think they do need to be exposed to what we see as adults. I'm shocked there was no uproar when they interviewed the children there and they had more poise than the adults and I'm definitely sure they were scared out of their wits.

As for the issue between Mother and Son, problem solved! It's ashame. but what else can I or anyone else say or do? Yeah, we'll learn more, but it won't surprise me if the same tired reasoning is spewed on top of your "Hatred For Mother Dearest" thought (I think you're right) as people do tend to pull from the top. This is not Jenga! Again, all anybody can do is speculate and assume including the shooter's brother. Maybe his reasoning will be similar to yours, but again if the "broken home" is no reason for someone to act out, then "Hating Family Member Dearest" is no reason either. His mother was just as undeserving of her death as those children and six other adults were, but hey, his mother could defend herself. If so, why is she dead? Everybody heard "teacher" and felt bad because of the children. Had he shot just her, you'd get the "usual" story (which of course, would be alot less unsettling for alot of people)

I actually feel worse for the mother because I've lost a parent, grandparent and great-grandparent; yet, to have a child/grand/great-grand -- no matter what age -- is just as unthinkable and deplorable. As it relates to the gender wars: children are to women as adults are to men. Adults kill adults, that's just their nature, but adults don't kill children! Children most certainly don't kill adults! That's a lie in both senses. This makes me wanna call Mom and tell her I love her (and I'm 30) which is what needs to be told and more importantly shown to the children more as well as the parents, but especially the children after this happened, even if you have issues with them.

yorolpal-  You asked the next very logical question-  What determines people's behavior?  Very good question IMO.

There will be many answers.  And many books have been written about the subject!  LOL

You can bet your boots there is a multitude of "influencing factors" on our behaviors.  If people don't think that Mike, that cool Ford TV commercial guy, doesn't sway people's behavior to buy Fords by continually popping up on our TV screens every hour, you might want to talk to the Ford Advertising department...I'm sure they think differently.  ;-)

And we haven't even mentioned chemical imbalances in peoples' brains that can influence behavior.....

(Even though I was a mechanical engineer in school/occupation, I enjoyed and studied a little psychology along the way.... probably just enough to be dangerous....LOL   It is very interesting.)

 Well I got up this morning and it was there again. The media is covering every little detail about this. Am I the only one that is slightly annoyed that this looks like a ratings game? And maybe a convenient way to steer us away from what is happening on Capital hill?

 I am saddened by this whole thing. I guess I am judgemental in questioning the motives of the people who are bringing us the information and how much it is really helping the families of the innocent victims.

 I have thought about why something like this could happen or why these kinds of things are happening with more regularity around the world.

 I see it as a percentage thing. I know that sounds impersonal and maybe callous but I really believe this is the case. The answer is multi faceted.

 This has to do with a percentage of the outcome of a combination of changes in our society.

 Take single parent children for example- as a general rule children from a single parent home might struggle more than others do but they usually get through it and function in society. OTOH there is a small PERCENTAGE of children who are affected by it in a serious way that follows them the rest of their lives. Most kids who play video games know they are only games, but a few of them might be seriously influenced by these games and start to role play in a more substantial way.

 Most kids watching violent movies are not going to go out and shoot people but a small PERCENTAGE of these kids will act more violently as a result of watching these behaviors. Since younger kids don't know what is real yet, if they are exposed to things that seem real it might be desensitizing to them in a bad way.

 A tight economy brings about a lot of working parents who don't have as much time to spend with their kids. Some kids will fare better in this environment than others will. The notable disenchantment and disinterest from many 30 somethings and younger for anything relating to God and the religious structures in the past that were considered to be pillars of our society are changing. In some cases being legally squelched. Whatever your beliefs  it is a fact that this is foundational in a childs life and morally speaking it was a good thing. The movement away from these things and from a sense of what is right and wrong leads people to make up their own rules.

 The educational system now teaches children the theory that we came about over billions of years by nothing more than chance. A PERCENTAGE of these kids indoctrinated with this theory will think that they are merely animals who have no moral directive and therefore  free to invent their own set of rules or lack thereof. Most kids will comply with what is viewed as sane moral and safe but a PERCENTAGE of these kids might look at things differently.

 These are only a few  examples, but I think you see where I'm going with this. All of these little societal tweaks over the last 40 years are combining to bring about an increase in these types of behaviors and a desensitization to what was once atrocious and horrible. A percentage of the population will be affected by this more seriously . In my view an even larger portion of the population is still affected by these changes but they don't go out and kill people. They may be affected in other ways not as easily measured or seen.

 I don't blame the media entirely but I do hold them responsible. In this age of global connections they might be the only rudder steering the ship of thought for a vast number of people. Why do you think that some Governments want strict control over their media? For some young people the media world is the only place they get all of their information.Family is not there, in some cases the community support system is not there either.  So I think it is a combination of these things that aversley affects a small percentage.

 The homies in the hood have a ton of illegal guns and could easily shoot up anything or anyone they want to.They have a support system in place that prevents it unless their system deems it necessary. It might be a messed up system but its a family to them.The white males in their low 20s are missing that in many cases.