Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?

everybody has a different tolerance level for what they deam as 'cheating'


i think it's great as a demo writing tool......


but i don't think you'll find any magic in there.

and after all, that's what we're all after, in our recordings.

well, no, it's not the same.

how could it be?

there is no interaction, which is the heart and soul of music.


otherwise, just buy a computer program that can randomly create music in real time, and call it 'performance art'

LOL


imagine if Led Zeppelin had tried to use B ina B to record 'whole lotta love'

I don't think it's cheating at all.

It's unlikely to generate much or any that you will end up using, unless you like the vibe of an ol' fashioned Casio playalong keyboard.

I find it's a cool aid for writing and prototyping progressions and fleshing out a song structure.  I use it quite a bit in various ways.

If you think it's cheating it is.
If you don't think it is, it's not.

Diversity; it makes the world go 'round.

BB, for me is not cheating. I really like the ease with which I can demo up a song and try new ideas and chords and change the key in seconds.  With the thousands of styles, you're sure to find something that fits what your're writing.

You must understand the limitations of BB to work effectively with it.  As Bat said... Zep would have had a hard time writing Whole Lotta Love on it. You can do stops and holds and other cool stuff but you gotta really know that program.... and even then... it's limited.  

As far as it sounding "MIDI"...  the majority of the styles are midi. So expect it to sound midi. There are hundreds of "real styles" with sampled tracks. They sound better. But even using the midi styles..... save the project and re-open it in Real Band ( a program that comes with the full versions of BB) and use Real Tracks. I bought it based on the demo songs and samples I heard, not on what the demo sounded like. I saw they had a 30 day MBG on the program, so I figured I'd try the full version with the RT's which is NOT in the demo version. Since then I have upgraded a few times and will likely upgrade again next year. They are constantly coming out with more styles and more sampled instruments. 

When I write a song in BB, I move it to RB and use RT's in it. Listen to my music and the dobro, steel guitar, and fiddle among others are RT's rendered from the original BB midi in many cases. 

Band in a Box, while it is good, and quite amazing in what it can do for you, is no substitute for writing talent. It will only do what you are able to tell it that you want, and if you get too fancy or creative, you will run up against it's limitations pretty quick. Anything under the Audiophile version does not use waves for it's samples, and that can show up in some crappy sounding notes in your tracks. More than one time I had to scrap the track and go in a different direction. 

I write pretty standard country music and it works well, for the most part,  in that situation.

The full versions of BB are quite pricey, but there's just about nothing else that I am aware of that does what BB does, at the level it does it, except for studio cats, and they are very pricey when you write and demo a lot of songs.  

This song> Emerald Eyes    http://www.soundclick.com...&q=hi&newref=1  is a good example of what BB/RB/RT can do.   It's composed in BB and moved to MC4 where I added the electric & Acoustic guitars.  Everything else...bass, drums, trumpet, piano, pads, were all BB/RB tracks.    To write this, I had to select the tempo, the style, and write the chord progressions.... So that is my creativity being enhanced by technology. 

Just about every song I write these days has my "Upper Room Studio Band" playing on it. 

yorolpal


If you don't think it's murder it's not.
If you do think it's murder it is.
Tautology; it turns the world upside down:-)

Touche
(or is it Tush? ala ZZTop)

 I tend to agree with Batsbrew on the human element although I could maybe see a use for BB as a template as some of you have already mentioned. Guitarhacker you do really well with the method you have to work with your material. I don't think the question is, Can it sound good?Jonbouy and munmun must take a similar tack. Could you make the music sound as good without BB?
 One big concern I had was that sometimes I'll get a rhythm or a tune in my head that might not line up with a template and a template might actually destroy the idea or the feel. If I'm into a strict genre' then maybe it would suffice. I have had the same thing happen with drum loops that don't fit. To fall into BBs templates isn't necessarily bad, but I can see the tendency to fall into that system because it is easier by far than fleshing out an original backup track.

 I'm not knocking you for using it and I am ,I'm fact, considering the use of it for templates but I don't want to get lazy with it either.

 SH1 This was a personal reflection I asked for opinions on(thanks!) it has nothing to do with who is or is not around.I think we all set our own standards on what we feel comfortable with as musicians. Personally, I would pay extra for something real or better. I would  go to more trouble for quality. I'm not saying BB is a lack of quality or inferior but I am questioning how far I would be willing to accept its use in my tracks.

 Wow, a pretty cool result there and a use I had not considered. I noticed the most recent BB has P&W tracks in it as well.I could see using it if I could add my  real instruments into it like that......and I like it when people write me checks too.....

 Pardon I thought the Bouy was a she....as far a checks are concerned,theres money flying round' but  its going over my head...good luck to you.

yorolpal


Like Strike and Mods post attest...thinking of this sort of stuff as "cheating" is heading down a rabbit hole to begin with. Make music...and/or money...and don't fret over the details. Our self delusion is our best friend. If we all had to face up to just how much we all are charlatans we'd probably jump off the nearest cliff.

Quick..... grab my hand myolpa...................................................................................................


kerplunk!

Starise


  Guitarhacker you do really well with the method you have to work with your material. I don't think the question is, Can it sound good?

Yeah it can sound good. 

Jonbouy and munmun must take a similar tack. Could you make the music sound as good without BB? 

NO. I don't play all those other instruments.

 
 One big concern I had was that sometimes I'll get a rhythm or a tune in my head that might not line up with a template and a template might actually destroy the idea or the feel.

With almost 3000 different styles I'm sure you can find something that works. 

          If I'm into a strict genre' then maybe it would suffice. I have had the same thing happen with drum loops that don't fit. To fall into                 BBs templates isn't necessarily bad, but I can see the tendency to fall into that system because it is easier by far than fleshing out            an original backup track. 

 I'm not knocking you for using it and I am ,I'm fact, considering the use of it for templates but I don't want to get lazy with it either. 

Yes, it would be easy to get really lazy musically. 

  ......... I'm not saying BB is a lack of quality or inferior but I am questioning how far I would be willing to accept its use in my tracks.

I'm willing to accept the tracks that fit the song and make it a better song. 

It seems that some of us are using BIAB to create a template upon which to work.  I want to emphasize that is not the only way to use BIAB.  I have 2 strict rules with this program:

- if I play the instrument then no BIAB allowed
- BIAB drums not allowed.  They lack a certain something.
- no templates (the groove and feel in my head takes priority)

So against this backdrop I typically find a groove close to what I have in my head.  I care less about genre.  Sometimes inserting one genre into another can be quite interesting.  Check out my song "The world has lets its children down."

The piano track is BIAB.  I remember splicing together a number of piano genres in BIAB (one for verse 1, one for chorus, one for verse 2) etc to get to something varied and interesting.  Also the drums and bass were already recorded.  So BIAB needed to fit into my music and not the other way around.  The piano part was pretty enough where I gave it an honourable mention at the end of the song.

I use BB, because in my local area, the availability and level of musicianship of most of the locals is lacking the level of professionalism I would like to have in my songs.  Hiring studio musicians is out of the question due to the number of songs I write and the cost of using their services. Until I begin to make a substantial income from music, that is just the way it is. 

For example, a buddy, whom I used to attend church with,  a bass player and owner of MC2, and I , had spoken multiple times about recording. It took months to get him to the studio to record a track. In the end, he wasn't into it and I had to scrap the track he recorded, and use a synth to lay down the part. My synth part was hands down, so much better. 

When I write a song, I want the parts finished in a timely manner, and to wait on someone else to (begrudgingly) find the time in their schedule is not what I want to do. The same thing applies quite often to internet collaborations. In all fairness to the people here in the Cakewalk forums, I have had some really good experiences with those long distance collaborations. 

I wrote a song back in the spring. It took months to get a female vocalist to actually show up. I have no control over female vocalists so I am stuck having to put those songs on the shelf and wait patiently.  Actually supposed to have a session scheduled tonight to begin the female vox on a new tune. We'll see if this one happens or not. 

Oh and yes..... there are some people here who do consider BB "cheating" or something less than being a real musician for using it. I consider it a tool to accomplish the task at hand. 

And BB is such an amazing program. the programming that went into it is astounding. 

Are you aware that you can import an audio file of a song, and BB will analyze it telling you what key it's in, the tempo and map out the chords with pretty decent accuracy? You can then use that output file to render other tracks. That is just one thing it can do. the way I use it is a very practical way, and I have not even bothered to dig into the deeper areas of what it can do. I dig deep enough to accomplish the task at hand.

Never used BiaB, but I once toyed with the somewhat similar "assistant" that was included in Guitar Studio 2, back in the days. 

As it turned out, those things never really sit well with my workflow, but I wouldn't discard them altogether. I remember on instance where I came up with an entirely different idea for an arrangement as a result of fooling around with styles, something I would never have thought of otherwise. 

It's almost like when the drummer in your band insists on collaborating in the songwriting process and keeps piling up silly ideas but suddenly comes up with a very good one by accident. ;)

What's cheating in a world where music is put together instead of performed, "singers" are all autotuned, hooks are almost systematically lifted/quoted from hits of the past decades, drums are quantized and "enhanced" with sampled, guitars are comp'ed from 127 takes?

Cheating would be sticking to authentic performances from real musicians. 

munmun


It seems that some of us are using BIAB to create a template upon which to work.  I want to emphasize that is not the only way to use BIAB.  I have 2 strict rules with this program:

- if I play the instrument then no BIAB allowed
- BIAB drums not allowed.  They lack a certain something.
- no templates (the groove and feel in my head takes priority)

This discussion on BIAB has triggered me to actually start using it since I got it earlier this year. I also agree with your rules munmun (except for the part that says "2 strict rules" but listed 3. lol)