Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios

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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 17:15:03 (permalink)
Guitartrek

I like the looks of that Garritan personal Orchestra

Question --   do you use this just like DIM PRO ?

Meaning you INSERT A SYNTH and create a new track for every instrument you want to use
Then, superimpose the PRV views for all the tracks so it is easier to compose ?

Or is it used a little different inside SONAR ?


post edited by mikespitzer - 2011/02/19 17:18:03
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 17:26:06 (permalink)
Mike - you are on the right track.

Dim Pro is very limited.  I don't micro control pitch variations in GPO, and I'm not sure it allows that although it might.  Their 2nd Violins are slightly out of tune with the 1st Violins and it changes depending on pitch.   The higher end packages have even more randomization.  I think what they do is the same as Superior Drummer and Trilian, they all have built in humanizing capabilities through their own randomizing algorhythms and multiple waves so you don't have to worry about controlling it yourself.  They are trying to take care of the low level humanizing while letting you concentrate on the composition and arrangement at a higher level.

If you want to check out my version of Kansas "The Wall"
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9429511

This song is a good example of what can be accomplished using mdi synths.  The only "real" instruments are my guitar and my voice.  The rest is synths.  GPO, Trilian for bass, Superior Drummer, and True Pianos.  If you listen to the strings, I'm contantly varying the volume through continous controllers (mod wheel).  And when the volume goes up, it is not just an increase in volume, it is also a more intense brighter tone just like if you increased tension or speed of the bow.
post edited by guitartrek - 2011/02/19 17:27:53

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 17:42:50 (permalink)
Mike - Here are some screenshots of how I have have GPO set up for "The Wall".  I'm using only a Stereo out from Aria.  You could have multiple outs and several audio tracks for each instrument if you want.  I choose not to clutter up Sonar with excessive tracks so I do the mixing inside Aria.





http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 17:52:14 (permalink)
mikespitzer


Guitartrek

I like the looks of that Garritan personal Orchestra

Question --   do you use this just like DIM PRO ?

Meaning you INSERT A SYNTH and create a new track for every instrument you want to use
Then, superimpose the PRV views for all the tracks so it is easier to compose ?

Or is it used a little different inside SONAR ?

Mike - when I insert GPO, I insert just like Dim Pro - checking the following boxes: Midi Source Track, Folder, and Synth output track.  That creates a folder, midi track and audio track.  Then I clone the midi track for each instrument.  If I've got 10 instruments, I end up with 10 midi tracks.  Then I set the channel numbers on each track to 1 through 10.  Each track points to a different instrument in Aria.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 19:49:04 (permalink)
Another Basic PRV question I can't find in the SONAR help section.

I am working on a song with a strong triplet feel
How can I change the grid lines on the PRV to be showing 12 divisions per measure

Another question for G-trek about the difference between DIM PRO and GPO
Say I have a classical composition that require 8 different instruments .......................

With DIM PRO I would need to open 8 different instances of DIM PRO  (one per new track) --- correct ?

But since GPO is multitymbral, I only need 1 instance of GPO opened  and the channel assigns and mixer inside GPO can handle the switching between different instruments as I am programming the tune in PRV
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 20:24:36 (permalink)
Mike - yes - Dim pro would need multiple instances.  Dim pro does have 4 elements and is technically multitimbral, so you could assign each element a different sample set, so you may be able to do it with only two instances, but that would be a real hassle.   For a classical composition GPO would handle this job very easily.

The other problem is that if you need to switch articulations, dim pro is pretty limited.  With GPO you can switch back and forth between articulations in one midi track by using Key Switching.  This is where GPO and other orchestral packages really shine.  For example, in the same song with Violin1 you may need short bows, long bows, up or down bows, pizzicato, tremelo, trils, etc.  In Dim Pro you'd have to start loading different instances for different articulations.  With GPO you just change the articulation on the fly. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 20:28:28 (permalink)
I found it
Snap To Grid Settings
16th Note Triplets
Show Grid
#37
mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 20:32:27 (permalink)
Guitartrek

I think you have sold me.

 Dimension pro seems fine for very basic backing tracks and progressions and they even have the stripped down Garritan Pocket Orchestra samples to play around with.

But it seems well worth the trouble to not get to far into this using DIM PRO, but instead get into something more serious like GPO .

I assume you can detune all the instruments in GPO down 1/2 step so you can compose in standard music notation but match pitch with guitars that are tuned to Eb ?

Mmmmmm  ... 1/2 step down is how many -cents ?
Seems it is -100 cents for 1/2 step of detune on keyboards.
Then double check the tuning between the DAW and guitar before laying down the real guitar parts over the MIDI created stuff.

post edited by mikespitzer - 2011/02/19 20:34:54
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 21:05:24 (permalink)
Mike - I agree.  Avoid the frustrations with dim pro if you want to do serious orchestral stuff. 

With Aria you can just set one global Key Scale so you don't have to worry about tuning each instrument individually.  They've made it really easy.  However, Violin2 is about 6 cents off - so I always tune this one.  The others are pretty much in tune already.
post edited by guitartrek - 2011/02/19 21:07:28

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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M@ B
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 21:13:36 (permalink)
mikespitzer


Guitartrek

I assume you can detune all the instruments in GPO down 1/2 step so you can compose in standard music notation but match pitch with guitars that are tuned to Eb ?

Mmmmmm  ... 1/2 step down is how many -cents ?
Seems it is -100 cents for 1/2 step of detune on keyboards.
Then double check the tuning between the DAW and guitar before laying down the real guitar parts over the MIDI created stuff.


you can transpose midi tracks either in the track inspector or with the cakewalk midi transpose tool. an octave is broken up into 12 parts, so if you wanted to tune the midi tracks down a half step to E flat, just transpose the E track(s) to -1 (minus one). or for example, your wanted to transpose a midi track(s) from E to G, that would be +3. there may be other ways to do this, but that's what i've been doing.
post edited by M@ B - 2011/02/19 21:56:38

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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 21:51:00 (permalink)
M@ B


mikespitzer


Guitartrek

I think you have sold me.

Dimension pro seems fine for very basic backing tracks and progressions and they even have the stripped down Garritan Pocket Orchestra samples to play around with.

But it seems well worth the trouble to not get to far into this using DIM PRO, but instead get into something more serious like GPO .

I assume you can detune all the instruments in GPO down 1/2 step so you can compose in standard music notation but match pitch with guitars that are tuned to Eb ?

Mmmmmm  ... 1/2 step down is how many -cents ?
Seems it is -100 cents for 1/2 step of detune on keyboards.
Then double check the tuning between the DAW and guitar before laying down the real guitar parts over the MIDI created stuff.


from what i have learned so far, you can transpose midi tracks either in the track inspector or with the cakewalk midi transpose tool. an octave is broken up into 12 parts, so if you wanted to tune the midi tracks a half step down, just transpose the E track(s) to -1 (minus one). there may be other ways to do that, but that's what i've been doing.


Good point.  You can transpose the midi events.   there is another easy way too and that is using the track key offset.  You can put a -1 in that field and all the midi notes will be automatically be transposed down a half step before hitting the soft synth.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
#41
M@ B
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 22:01:55 (permalink)
guitartrek


Here is a simple explanation of the dialogue box:

Simple Instrument Track - if you want the midi track and audio track to be one track.  This is a relatively new feature - I don't use it.  But a lot of people do.   This is as opposed to the traditional Midi track / Audio track.

MIDI Source - If you want to create a midi track right away this will create a midi track and point it to your soft synth.

Synth Track Folder - if you want the midi and audio track to be included in a new folder.  This is handy - I use this

First Synth Audio Output - Creates a stereo Audio track for your virtual synth - Its input points to your soft synth

All synth Audio Outputs: Creates a bunch of audio tracks for your soft synth - if you have multiple outs from your synth.  For example, for drum synths, it will create different audio tracks for each kit piece.  Or if you have Kontakt and are using it for different instruments, this is put each instrument on a separate track.

If you don't check any of the boxes Sonar will just add the synth to the synth rack.  You can create all the tracks you need manually and rout the inputs and outputs later. 

Midi Source track Output--> Soft synth --> Audio track input


thanks guitartrek this will be helpfulf.

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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/19 23:26:21 (permalink)
Guitartrek

Thanks again for suggesting GPO
I have started downloading the full version now

I like their interface
I like their website
I like the way their manual is laid out
I like the demos on their page
Overall, I like the whole presentation and power for the $$

I may have 1-2 more questions after I get it installed

Quick question -
How do you double check tuning between your guitars and what the DAW says is 1/2 step down.

In the real world we all share the same tuner to be 100% sure we are in sync

But we all know just because a software app says it is 1/2 flat under A-440
and we use a tuner to tune a guitar out in the real world
they THEORETICALLY will be in tune
but in reality there are often variations just like with TEMPO not being universal


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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 00:28:35 (permalink)
A couple of points. Higher end sample libraries use "round robin" techniques where there are, say, 5 slightly different samples that get played in turn to eliminate the machine gun effect. Some one correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Dim Pro has "round robin" samples.
 
Another very helpful feature missing in Dimension Pro is key switching. This reduces the amount of midi track and instances required by switching between articulations using dedicated keys outside of the instruments range. For example in a string patch C0 will switch to legato D0 Pizzicato E0 Tremolo etc.

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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 01:24:22 (permalink)
GuitarTrek commented ---  "With GPO you can switch back and forth between articulations in one midi track by using Key Switching.  This is where GPO and other orchestral packages really shine.  For example, in the same song with Violin1 you may need short bows, long bows, up or down bows, pizzicato, tremelo, trils, etc.  In Dim Pro you'd have to start loading different instances for different articulations.  With GPO you just change the articulation on the fly. "

If I am doing all my composing in PRV and not using a MIDI keyboard for input, how to I switch between these articulations if for example I am drawing in notes for a solo violin ?

I assume along with the actual note, I must also draw in the appropriate lower register (out of tonal range) key with the EXACT same TIME and DURATION to trigger the articulation change for that specific note ... etc..
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 03:10:49 (permalink)
mikespitzer

I assume along with the actual note, I must also draw in the appropriate lower register (out of tonal range) key with the EXACT same TIME and DURATION to trigger the articulation change for that specific note ... etc..

In most cases any length note will do, (its just a switch that will remain active until a new one is pressed), Preferably insert it just before the first note with the new articulation starts. Occasionally you may come across a "non latching" key switch which requires you hold it all the time you want it to take effect but these are rare.
 

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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 08:36:00 (permalink)
Mike - As Glyn mentioned, for a "keyswitch" you just need to insert a keyswitch midi note of any duration sometime before the note you want to play.  Think of a keyswitch as a "program change" command.  Once sonar reads and transmits the keywitch note to Aria, Aria will change the articulation of that instrument until it receives another keyswitch note.  This can take some getting used to because you can acidentally leave the an instrument in an unintended articulation.  Everytime you open a project with Aria, all instruments go to the default articulation.  Once you change the articulation for an instrument, it will stay in that articulation until you change it back.  Once you start working with this you'll see what I mean.  It may be a little frustrating until you start to realize what is going on.  One thing that was suggested to me on this forum is to set the keyswitch at the very beginning of the project.  That way you can always start from the begining and "re-initialize" the keyswitches.  At the beginning of every GPO midi track I insert a keyswitch before the actual notes start playing.

As far as guitar tuning - I always use an electronic tuner to tune my guitar to exact tuning before recording.  I don't tune to a synth.  All synths should already be tuned to exact pitch.  If they aren't it is a problem with the synth.  For example a lot of the bass patches for Dim Pro had terrible tuning.  They have since fixed that.  But if I tuned the guitar to match Dim Pro's bass, then later when they fixed it my guitar tracks would be off.  Tuning the guitar with an electronic tuner is the fastest way for me.  I'm using a PODX3 so it is just a matter of touching a button.

GPO is also tuned for exact tuning, but like I said - check out Violin2 - it is slightly off.  And some of the high notes of the bass are off too, but luckily I don't use those high bass notes, I'll let the cellos take over in that range.
post edited by guitartrek - 2011/02/20 08:41:41

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 08:54:08 (permalink)
Mike - another thing - to control volume of the Violins (for the default articulation), you need to set the a Continuous Contoller value.  This is also a little different.  Volume is not controlled by velocity.  If you don't set this controller value you won't hear a sound.  Velocity controls Attack - how fast or slow the bow initiates the sound.  The CC:1 controls volume.

So you'll want to have two controller lanes open in your PRV (see my screenshot) - one for velocity and one for CC:1.  Velocity is there by default, but the other lane you have to open manually.  Not sure if you are using X1, but if you are you go up to Edit (upper left corner of PRV) select "new value type", select Control - and type in 1 as the value.  You new lane should read "CC:1 (Chan: 1)"  You can draw in a value at the beginning of the song to set a default volume so you can hear the instrument.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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DeeS
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 09:22:44 (permalink)
I wouldn't count out EastWest Symhonic Orchestra. They have just released a new version of the Play Engine that runs them. I use them with no problems. They have a two for one sale very often.

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The problem with perfection is that it has no limits. Normally, once you obtain perfection, you realize how it could be better. David Gibson - The Art of Mixing
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 09:28:05 (permalink)
Mike - here is a screenshot of what your PRV should look like:


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 14:14:09 (permalink)
Guitatek commented -- "So you'll want to have two controller lanes open in your PRV (see my screenshot) - one for velocity and one for CC:1.  Velocity is there by default, but the other lane you have to open manually.  Not sure if you are using X1, but if you are you go up to Edit (upper left corner of PRV) select "new value type", select Control - and type in 1 as the value.  You new lane should read "CC:1 (Chan: 1)"  You can draw in a value at the beginning of the song to set a default volume so you can hear the instrument."

I will have to figure out how to set this up in Sonar 8.3.1
I have never set up a Continous Controller before.

Is this only applicable to the Violins ?

Regarding tuning ....
A Studio Engineer at Criteria in Miami told me they actually do it this way .......
Since the tuning (and tensions) of the instruments are most important to the real musicians, they have all the real instruments tuned on the same Peterson Strobe tuner (or whatever tuner) .............. then they plug that same tuner into the mixing board and have all the MIDI synths in the DAW play E A D G B E  to be sure they match perfectly.

He commented that "in theory" this should not be required, but in reality they have observed that the tuning of virtual instruments do not always match the tuning you get from a dedicated real world tuner.

For example, he commented that -100 cents is indeed 1/2 step down to match an Eb guitar -- but they have sometimes noticed based on the software or the sample, that to really get all the virtual and real world instruments truly in tune, they sometimes have to tweak with values like -115 to -95

makes sense to me.
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 14:46:46 (permalink)
As far as the continous controllers in GPO it all depends on the articulation and the instrument.  For example, the GPO piano is velocity driven.  And pizzicato in Violins is also velocity driven.  They've got a good section in the manual that explains it.  Once you get the Continous Controller running it is pretty cool.  It is like opening another dimension of control besides velocity and pitch.  You can use your mod wheel expressively.

The Criteria Studio Engineer makes a good point and he is right.  Like the Dim Pro Basses that were way off in tuning.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 15:19:07 (permalink)
so I assume you must add a Continuous Controller for each instrument you are using that needs this kind of control ?
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 15:54:10 (permalink)
On the main interface of the Garritan screen, there are three graphics that look like light bulbs in the lower right corner you can click on next to the keyboard.
What do these do ?

My guess would have been these are intended to be showing the sustain pedals if you were using an actual MIDI keyboard.

I can't find them mentioned in the 143 page user manual

Thanks
post edited by mikespitzer - 2011/02/20 15:58:30
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 15:55:17 (permalink)
I'm looking for somebody who has posted a SONAR project of simple classical music using GPO that I can download, import into my SONAR and see a fully finished tune working
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 16:04:57 (permalink)
mikespitzer


so I assume you must add a Continuous Controller for each instrument you are using that needs this kind of control ?

Yes - initially for eah track.  Once you draw a controller event, it should automatically open this lane everytime you open the PRV for that track

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 16:07:04 (permalink)
mikespitzer


On the main interface of the Garritan screen, there are three graphics that look like light bulbs in the lower right corner you can click on next to the keyboard.
What do these do ?

My guess would have been these are intended to be showing the sustain pedals if you were using an actual MIDI keyboard.

I can't find them mentioned in the 143 page user manual

Thanks

I think you are right - they should show the state of these pedals.  I never used them. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 16:16:27 (permalink)
RE :  >> Yes - initially for eah track.  Once you draw a controller event, it should automatically open this lane everytime you open the PRV for that track <<


Hmmm ... how does that work when you are superimposing PRV views ?
the CC  lane auto toggles views depending on which instrument you are actively editing.

I will have to set that up and play with it using 3-4 simple instruments just to get a feel for how this all works together  before starting on any serious projects


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guitartrek
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 18:19:24 (permalink)
Mike - look at my screenshot PRV for "the wall".  It has a bunch of tracks superimposed.  If you look closely at the CC:1 controller lane, the events for the selected instrument are highlighted.  You can see the events from the other tracks in the background - they are almost ghosted, or dashed lines, but you can see them.  If you touch one of them it automatically changes the selected track to the whichever event you touched.  That can get a little confusing at times for me - all of a sudden a different track is selected.  People deal with it in different ways.  I'm not an expert like some people on the forum.   I just started with GPO last summer.  Randy has a ton of experience and helped me quite a bit.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=897808
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mikespitzer
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Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios 2011/02/20 19:10:52 (permalink)
Yes, looking closer it is all becoming more clear how these pieces work together.

I can see why MIDI people tend to also have some Keyboard skills

Doing everything 100% manually by painting in PRV is very slow.


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