HumbleNoise
Max Output Level: -46 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2946
- Joined: 2004/01/04 12:53:50
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/21 13:36:12
(permalink)
guitartrek
I'm using only a Stereo out from Aria. You could have multiple outs and several audio tracks for each instrument if you want. I choose not to clutter up Sonar with excessive tracks so I do the mixing inside Aria. GT, I just discovered this thread (very helpful so far) as I had my initial problems with Aria solved with some serious trial and error and noticed your technique as described above. With only one audio track what happens if you want to affect a single instrument? I know you can adjust sends in the Aria player for reverb but what if want to do something else to a single instrument?
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/21 22:19:20
(permalink)
Larry - If you want to treat different GPO instruments with different effects in Sonar, you have to use Aria Multi and go with multiple outs. Luckily I haven't had to do that yet. I'm treating all the instruments as if they were an orchestra in the same room and it has worked so far - for me.
|
Philip
Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4062
- Joined: 2007/03/21 13:09:13
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/22 01:07:04
(permalink)
Great thread: All of us have orchestral favs. I wrote my 1st orchestral with EWQL StormDrums (RLD), but used EWQL and ditched Miroslav Philharmonic (32-bit, ouch!). 64bit Sonar and SSD Drives open the world for the Kore and EWQL stuff ... another idea for fast orchestral work-flow. The spare-no-expense ($600+/-) EWQL Hollywood Strings sort of requires a robust 64bit System with SSD(s). One respectable composer, Rolifer ( Rolifer@Verizon.net), seems (to me) to produce quite a bit of excellence using all the EWQL stuff. Perhaps he could chime as well.
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/22 16:29:35
(permalink)
Well I have finished experimenting and playing with GPO on my laptop.
(I keep SONAR on there and experiment with new software here before installing on my main studio PC).
As is standard of DAW, I have three (3) drives in my DAW PC
C: Operating System and Software
D: Audio
E: Samples
I assume with GPO it is best to install the actual orchestra samples on my samples drive just like I do with drumming software and NOT on the C: drive
Hmmm ... I forget now if it offered that option when installing.
|
HumbleNoise
Max Output Level: -46 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2946
- Joined: 2004/01/04 12:53:50
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/22 19:54:15
(permalink)
guitartrek
Larry - If you want to treat different GPO instruments with different effects in Sonar, you have to use Aria Multi and go with multiple outs. Luckily I haven't had to do that yet. I'm treating all the instruments as if they were an orchestra in the same room and it has worked so far - for me.
Thanks GT, I keep forgetting to check this fourm thanks for the info and template
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/26 15:02:00
(permalink)
I of course know that 'whatever sounds good" is good.
And rule are meant to be broken......
Despite all that, I would still like to find a good basic book on Arrangement and Orchestration use of instruments.
In the past we have of course used String Pads and Choirs to thicken up rock songs .............. but now I am working on some more complex arrangements and I have quickly realized I need to brush up on the basics of how the different instruments in a full orchestra are ofter utilized.
Example ......... with a backing inverted chord progression, perhaps the 2st Violin plays the root, the 2nd violin plays the 3rd, and the viola plays the 5th as a bass note.
Meanwhile a cello and bassoon play a bassline in unison
Then some woodwinds play the melody and the brass section only punctuates stresses chords
Or whatever .......
Anybody know of a good beginners guide for properly using the instruments of an Orchestra in combination for a full arrangement.
I searched Amazon but all i can find are these 600 page books of advance orchestration studies for advanced composers.
Thanks
|
bmdaustin
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1114
- Joined: 2004/01/11 21:56:51
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/26 18:57:13
(permalink)
The standard text for Orchestration is by Rimsky-Korsakov. Other major books by Ravel, Piston, Kennan, etc. Search for Orchestration textbooks and you should get plenty of hits.
Lots of good arranging books, too, but those tend to be more jazz/commercially oriented. Look for Henry Mancini's book. It goes into a fair amount of depth regarding his film scores - and there are plenty of good books on film scoring as well which will discuss orchestrational techniques, too.
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/26 19:25:15
(permalink)
Isn't the Rimsky-Korsakov textbook for only very very advanced classically trained composers and arrangers ?
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/26 22:05:57
(permalink)
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/27 09:48:49
(permalink)
Guitartrek,
Yes, thanks .. I had found that link at Garritan also.
But even that seems to mostly cover melodies and harmonies for multiple voices in a group ...
(ie ....... chords with Violins I and Violins 2, Viola and the combined cello and doublebass covering single note bass note an octave lower in unison)
I was looking for starting advice on arrangments and the most common USE of different instruments in a full orchestra .
For example ..... when is brass section best used ?
I can hear it often with emphasized dynamic chords
Woodwinds for solos ? or only harmony accompaniment ?
I guess like when we first taught ourselves to play electric rock guitar, the textbooks on chord shapes and scales only go so far ......... they don't teach you to write songs or do solos.
We learn that by example, and then modify the licks, riffs and phrases we learn by copying other songs.
I guess it is the same here .......
The best way to learn orchestrated arrangements will be thru example .......
ie ........ find a classical piece that has the sound you hear in your head for the piece you are writing, then go track down that full conductors score and see how the instruments are used in combination.
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/27 10:52:26
(permalink)
Mike - I know what you mean. There are so many cool examples - and during the course of the song the different parts of the orchestra play different roles. For example, in the first verse the violins are doing the melody and other parts of the orchestra are playing some kind of cool background part, then in the 2nd verse the french horns take over the melody (an octave lower) and the strings have some other background part that is a different from the original background part - and now the harp joined the strings with yet another background part that is rhythmical in nature. I think that all the parts of the orchestra are able to play all the roles (except for percussion playing the melody!). When I really start to listen and analyze what is going on I become much more appreciative of these classical composers. Not only were they great composers, but they were expert arrangers too. I think it is limited only by our imagination.
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/27 15:41:15
(permalink)
Ha ha .... listening to Classical music is a perfect example of how mankind is digressing in many ways.
Our technology is advancing, but morally, socially, and ethically the human creature is digressing in many ways and going backwards.
Music demonstrates this point quite well.
300 years ago, classical composers could arrange a wonderful sounding piece of music for 80 piece Orchestra without the aid of computers, DAW, or MIDI to test ideas.
Today popular music has digressed to being little more than cavemen banging on rocks and grunting ........
Think rap, hi-hop, techno, etc....
Boom Boom "shake that booty" Boom Boom "I taste your tooty" Boom Boom "don't diss on me" Boom Boom "Come climb my tree" Boom Boom etc...etc...etc...etc....etc...etc...
ugghhhh ........ horrible
People must be partially brain dead to be able to listen to that crap for more than about 10 seconds .
Repetitive to the point of being annoying and irritating like Chinese Water Torture.
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/27 16:40:52
(permalink)
I have found an example of the type of orchestration I am looking to emulate.
It is on the Garritan online tutorial ...
ANTAR reference score # 171
Looking at the score, I know what most of the instruments are ...
But what instrument is indicated by these abbreviations ...
Corr
Arpe
Cl.H(A)
Fag.
|
Treppenwitz
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 124
- Joined: 2004/08/25 02:18:31
- Location: Seattle, WA
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/02/28 19:14:55
(permalink)
|
Kroneborge
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1300
- Joined: 2011/01/18 22:14:58
- Location: Lompoc CA (near Santa Barbara)
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/03/02 12:24:12
(permalink)
mikespitzer
Ha ha .... listening to Classical music is a perfect example of how mankind is digressing in many ways.
Our technology is advancing, but morally, socially, and ethically the human creature is digressing in many ways and going backwards.
Music demonstrates this point quite well.
300 years ago, classical composers could arrange a wonderful sounding piece of music for 80 piece Orchestra without the aid of computers, DAW, or MIDI to test ideas.
Today popular music has digressed to being little more than cavemen banging on rocks and grunting ........
Think rap, hi-hop, techno, etc....
Boom Boom "shake that booty" Boom Boom "I taste your tooty" Boom Boom "don't diss on me" Boom Boom "Come climb my tree" Boom Boom etc...etc...etc...etc....etc...etc...
ugghhhh ........ horrible
People must be partially brain dead to be able to listen to that crap for more than about 10 seconds .
Repetitive to the point of being annoying and irritating like Chinese Water Torture.
Hey now, no need to go insulting people just because that type of music isn't to your taste. I like orchestra stuff, I also like hip hop and techno. But I detest country. What I like or don't like though doesn't make any type of music the "real music" or "better". As for orchestration, does anyone know a good place to get midi mockups. So you can learn how to get the effects you want in midi. I tried one of the Alexander ones, but it didn't really load in Sonar right. Also, I use EWQL plat, and so far I love it, it sounds great.
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/03/02 18:41:59
(permalink)
KroneBorge,
For the most part I agree with you, there is no need to knock music styles just because you don't like it.
HOWEVER ..... there are a few things that transcend this rule of civil conduct.
There is some stuff that is so annoying and bad, there is no justifying it.
The other day at the for example, I finally had to go to the manager and tell them to turn the darn stereo system off.
8 minutes of the same exact 1 measure drum beat with zero variations and a heavily processed voice singing "you want me" ... "you want me"... "you want me" ..........over and over and over and over and over for the full 8 minutes with no changes whatsoever.
Sorry when you reach this low, it is not a matter of being open minded and accepting differences, at some point the bar gets so low you have to call it for what it is ......... crap.
Analogy ....... a guy can't simply grab a dinner plate, pour some yard dirt on the plate and call it some gourmet recipe.
There is some point where you move beyond defensible.
8 minutes of a one measure drum beat and the same 3 words repeated over and over 189 times is at that point of no longer being defendable as music.
SMILE
|
mikespitzer
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 300
- Joined: 2009/05/30 11:58:33
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/03/02 18:43:43
(permalink)
Guitartrek
Question about usinh GPO in SONAR
When I go to insert the synth, I am given two (2) options ....
ARIA PLAYER MULTI VST_X86
ARIA PLAYER VST_X86
I assume I would use the multi ....... but I can not find in the manual or on the Garritan site what the difference is
Thanks
|
Kroneborge
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1300
- Joined: 2011/01/18 22:14:58
- Location: Lompoc CA (near Santa Barbara)
- Status: offline
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/03/02 21:39:22
(permalink)
mikespitzer
Guitartrek
Question about usinh GPO in SONAR
When I go to insert the synth, I am given two (2) options ....
ARIA PLAYER MULTI VST_X86
ARIA PLAYER VST_X86
I assume I would use the multi ....... but I can not find in the manual or on the Garritan site what the difference is
Thanks
Mike - I was confused with that at first too. The difference is simple - if you want separate outs into Sonar for each channel, select the multi. You'll get a different audio track for each instrument. If you want a single stereo audio track choose the other one. If you use Multi you can send for example the solo violin to a delay. Or if you didn't want to use Aria's reverb and you wanted to use Sonar's reverb, you could vary the amount of reverb for each instrument. I use the single stereo track - I don't mind Aria's reverb and I just try to keep the number of Sonar tracks down to reduce clutter. I already have a midi track for each channel and that's a lot.
|
Kroneborge
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1300
- Joined: 2011/01/18 22:14:58
- Location: Lompoc CA (near Santa Barbara)
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/03/02 22:30:02
(permalink)
Agreed, for most instruments I also start with 1, and then add more tracks if needed. The possible exception might be a drum instrument if I knew I was going to use them all (see for example the sonar master class on drums if goes over this).
|
feedback50
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 564
- Joined: 2004/05/31 12:08:15
- Location: Oregon, USA
- Status: offline
Re:Best Software for Orchestra Pads, Strings, Arpeggios
2011/03/03 10:09:52
(permalink)
One quick tip. If you're trying to get realistic orchestral tracks from a sampler, you may need to first understand how orchestrations are typically constructed and what the natural range of each instrument is, and how ensembles are constructed. Beyond that you may need to dive into a number of things that have little to do with the basic notes of the parts involved. Extensive use of controller sends and key-switching may be involved. I use subtle detuning, timbre variations, volume variations, and intentionally skew the attacks and releases of individual parts to sound more human. Also doubling solo instruments with sections (using the above CC techniques) is very effective.
|