Hi Janet. Firstly I think Rus has certainly over complicated the situation and Samhayman has also to a certain extent. (Sam is a way better composer though) Rus is trying to impress us with his theory knowledge but in fact when you listen to his music it sounds way simpler than anything that he has been talking about here. Chord substitutions are not a good place to start, end of story. Also the technical names of chords is also quite unnecessary. Rus has not given any advice in any order of learning. Take it slowly first, right back to basics.

A good simple place to start is you mention that you are using 3 chords often within a key. (maybe a fourth!) Every major key has 7 chords present. Chords are best remembered by their chord number. eg I Chord, II Chord, III chord etc so in the key of C start by thinking triads first.

Chords are

I        Maj  (Maj 7)
II       Min  (Min 7)
III      Min  (Min 7)
IV      Maj  (Maj 7)
V       Maj  (Dom 7)
VI      Min  (Min 7)
VII     Dim (Half dim)

So for a start we now have 7 chords instead of 4 so that is more. Learn to use all the scale chords rather than just a few. eg just using triads only there are three chord types present. Major, Minor and Diminished. Try using the diminished chord, it has got that leave you hanging feeling, use it! With seventh chords there are 4 chord types now, Major, Minor, Dominant and half Diminished, extra chord colour now, the Dominant chord! (Bluesy!)

If you apply this to all 12 keys now you have 84 chords available to you. By using the I chord, II chord approach etc you can apply this easily to all 12 keys. A lot more now than the 3 or 4 you were using before. Many chords are in several keys. They are good chords to do key changes. (eg A Min is the II chord in G Maj but it is also the III chord in F Maj and also the VI chord in C Maj etc, what a great way to do key changes without anyone knowing what you are up to) Add the 4th note to these and the seventh chords all emerge now and they are more colourful. (Chord names in brackets above)

Bristol makes an excellent point. Stop thinking chord progression first. Good music or songs are rarely formed that way. Think melody first. Don't be afraid to make a chromatic jump melody wise. It just means you are in a new key, even if its temporary. Practice creating melodies and finding the right chords to fit. Try and create melodies that have emotional appeal and effect you emotionally. That is the trick. Sometimes the most simple melodies over basic chord progressions are powerful. That has nothing to do with heavy theory! (Check out Gotye, songs like Somebody I used to Know to see what I mean. Nothing hard or complicated about that is there but wow what a song.) 

Herb also brings up an excellent point too in his post. You can use any chord from any key as long as it sounds good.  You are not obliged to only use the scale chords from any given key. If it sounds good then that is fine.  (Miles Davis used a very unrelated chord in one of his tunes once and after many attempts to analyse it by experts he was finally asked where did that chord come from and why did you use it and he simply said because I thought it sounded good at the time!)

That will keep you busy for yonks. Now once you have got all that down do it all again with the minor keys. Except there are 3 minor scales now for each key. Once you have got all that down then you could possibly look at chord substitution or re harmonization. But that is a long way off. You can't substitute or re harmonize any chords until you have all the stuff I have mentioned down first.

Another good place to study is the blues forms and the chords that usually exist within a blues progression. Another great thing to do is transcribe the melodies and chords from songs you know and love. You will learn more about music that way than any other approach. (Watch out for Steely Dan though, they will keep you busy for years)

The modes are also a very worthwhile thing to get into as well. These are the scales that form over the scale chords. What is interesting about the modes is the Tone/Semitone relationship between all the notes and the sound that is created out of them.

Also what all the parts are doing rhythmically behind the melody and chord progressions is the real interesting part. Once again check out all the songs on Gotye's album Making Mirrors. Often quite simple melodies and chords but fascinating rhythm parts going on behind. This is where nearly everyone falls down. I hear a lot of nice melodies and chords but what the parts are doing rhythmically in most people's music is dull and boring and been done to death a million times before, get out of that and come up with some more interesting ideas there.

"Rus W"

Go there if you dare!

Thanks for the link. Looks interesting at first glance. 


Addition :: The iBreaththeMusic.com link that is.

As Jonesey and Jeff have mentioned, a good way to avoid 'the usual chords' is to start with the melody, and fit chords to it. I think a lot of the time 'muscle memory' can take over and you end up heading for tried and tested progressions.

And what happened to the Augmented Chord (the Diminished was mentioned)?? (transitional chords)

Transitional chords - you can play I, IV, V, or go the long way and stick some other chords in there and eventually get to the IV, or the V.
 
Then you start playing 4 note chords, then 5 note chords, and then you twist your fingers around and play 6 notes with one 5 finger hand.
Someone wanted to play jazz on a trumpet and wanted me to stick these chords in a free form flow (no beat actually), but I never heard back from him.
So although boring here those 6 note chords in a video for the heck of it I guess: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qFicKq2fQ 

Don't ask what those chords are though, I did it in midi first of all or else I could not tell again what was played anyway. I think I did figure it out one day but anymore I can't remember. Figure it out some day again someday perhaps.
Got to give credit to some jazz players they always come up with sticking other chords in to get somewhere else with the normal chords.

Someone stated that to make music,  "sit down and make mistakes". (those mistakes are really never done on purpose but) That way you come up with something different and even sometimes it will sound better (or you may incorporate it into the song) because you got out of the rut of having been bombarded with the usual I, IV, V, which one day got old and sickening although it is played more than anything else. I am sure jazz players put real effort into finding different chords for a progression.

Anything else I do not know, but usually sometimes try and figure it out.

Keep paper with pencil or pen notes (harder to do than it is actually done though it seems).

spacealf


And what happened to the Augmented Chord (the Diminished was mentioned)?? (transitional chords)

Transitional chords - you can play I, IV, V, or go the long way and stick some other chords in there and eventually get to the IV, or the V.
 
Then you start playing 4 note chords, then 5 note chords, and then you twist your fingers around and play 6 notes with one 5 finger hand.
Someone wanted to play jazz on a trumpet and wanted me to stick these chords in a free form flow (no beat actually), but I never heard back from him.
So although boring here those 6 note chords in a video for the heck of it I guess: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qFicKq2fQ 

Don't ask what those chords are though, I did it in midi first of all or else I could not tell again what was played anyway. I think I did figure it out one day but anymore I can't remember. Figure it out some day again someday perhaps.
Got to give credit to some jazz players they always come up with sticking other chords in to get somewhere else with the normal chords.

Someone stated that to make music,  "sit down and make mistakes". (those mistakes are really never done on purpose but) That way you come up with something different and even sometimes it will sound better (or you may incorporate it into the song) because you got out of the rut of having been bombarded with the usual I, IV, V, which one day got old and sickening although it is played more than anything else. I am sure jazz players put real effort into finding different chords for a progression.

Anything else I do not know, but usually sometimes try and figure it out.

Eventually, the other four (technically, three - V/vii essentially are the same chord and the viio in triad from is rarely used). 


The reason the augmented wasn't mentioned (by me anyway) is the same reason the viio triad is rarely used. The augmented chord has been used and has its use, but more than likely, the chord in question is bigger than a triad. CMaj7#5 or CmMaj9, In the first chord, the augmentation is obvious; however, you have to pull apart the second to find its augmentation. It's the 7th - but take away the root  - it's the fifth and (EbMaj7#5) it looks and sounds just like the first chord (CMaj7#5) despite having a different root.


You're right about also being a transitional chord (the fifth chromatically ascending to become the third of the next chord, most often times a fourth above it - C-Caug-F or C9sus-C7#5#9-C7#5b9-FMaj9 - 5-#5-3)


And I totally agree with making mistakes, but I'd go further to say to make them on purpose to see if you want them. Improvisation must have changed if this doesn't occur.


The altered chords Herb and I mentioned have not-so-good sounding notes; however, it's not impossible to make them sound good which is why improvisers sound like they do.


This brings up the whole Consonance/Dissonance (ie: Tension/Release) issue and I think we can all agree that there needs to be a balance between the two.


"Take the good with the bad and ugly," as they say. This is the crux of Janet's dilemma!


Oh, I-IV-V! Oh, I-IV-V 
My pieces sound happy and bright ...


Oh I-IV-V! Oh, I-IV-V!
My progressions are lifeless and dry ...


The extensions, subs, alterations, turn down/up the brightness/darkness not to mention the other three chords in-between - ii/iii/vi


Same with a minor key - despite the darker tonality.


i-iv-v
You're bringing me down
I'm sick of being your clown
I'm gonna start jerking you around ...

These are clearly anecdotal references, but to me they clearly describe her dilemma.

And it's not just Jazz guys! True other genres don't use extensions, subs and/or alterations are often, but outside of rock/metal, they are used. The whole "Jazz Chord" is an egregious misnomer. "Color Chord" sounds more universal. I put effort into the progressions I use - not being fancy just to be, but to bring life into what would have a been a lifeless progression and all the techniques and applied examples do this.

Here's an idea for you, Janet:

Run the harmonized scales (Major and Natural Minor for now) forwards and backwards, then randomly play them to see which ones pair up best. I realize I've stated which ones do, but if you go by that, you will begin to think and not just play. Or as I've frequently said on the IBM forum, study songs.

An example would be "Lean On Me" which is I-ii-iii-IV-V. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPoTGyWT0Cg

I don't know enough theory to do much other than observe this conversation, but one technique I have enjoyed over the years is to play what most would call a simple chord progression while voicing a melody over the chords in such a way as to make fancier harmonies that, in my limited scoped of under standing, more or less seem to  end up acting as examples of the fancy chords some are speaking of.

I just do it by ear and smile when it sounds good.

Thoughts? Comments?

Is that a valid way to understand some of it?


best regards,
mike

Listen to Jazz.

Thanks again, everyone!

A few notes:  Mike (Makeshift)...I play the bass now too, so yeah, that makes sense.  :)  

Tim, I really do need to learn more songs and then learn the chords and write them down.  If only I didn't always have 15 things I either want or need to do at the same time.  :( But this is going on the list for sure. ;)  And yes, I guess I meant in the key...I do actually throw minors in there too.  :)  And I even throw in slash chords, so maybe I'm not as bland as I thought.  Well, yeah I am.  lol

Jeff...logical order, yeah, that makes sense.  I'll figure something out when I make myself sit down and do it!  

Herb:  Jazz??!!  Well, maybe.  Most of it drives me crazy. Sorry.  

Rus and Sam and Jeff...I'll get back to you in a few weeks or so.  :)  

(just got a cello and I'm trying to practice 30 minutes a day, so any extra time I might have is going there.)  

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that would be a great idea, Danny.  (playing along to songs I like.)  (I don't get much time to just jam with others for the heck of it.)  

And I didn't mean to sound so whiny in my last post, like all you guys have given me so much work to do and when will I find the time?? Agh!  Silly me...I ASKED for ideas!  :)  Anyway, I need to just make time for this, like I make time for practicing, etc.  You guys have given me great ideas to start.  Thank you!  

OK, point taken.  I promise to listen to jazz.  :)  Thanks! 

Jazz covers such a wide area when it comes to music...... 

One of my GO TO sites for listening to music is YOU TUBE.   

I simply typed in JAZZ to the search and this video was one of the first that popped up

Herbie Hancock ... he plays piano and is widely acclaimed for his skills  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrgP1u5YWEg

HH is jazz fusion and some of it is pretty technically advanced.... but listen to the colors in the chords..... listen to the chord changes. Not your typical 1-4-5 stuff but still based on it. 

You could spend every day for the next 10 years just listening to all the stuff in the jazz world on YT...   

Find a player you like and study their styling a bit. The goal is not to get it all in one week but to add new things you pick up from others over time. 

Here are some more links and one can try and digest it all if one wants to:


http://www.dolmetsch.com/index.htm
http://www.dolmetsch.com/introduction.htm
http://www.dolmetsch.com/theoryintro.htm
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory44.htm
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory25.htm#jazz
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory40.htm#jazz
Jazz comes from the Blues.
(and there is much, much, more there.

I can feel at least one new Pandora station coming on... :) 

Here's a site, you could try:  http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

I've played around with this sometimes.

It covers alot, but Chords, Diatonic Chords and Chord Progressions may be your area to look into.