Matt. try a C. before or after the B

mattplaysguitar


Thanks Rus. Learnt some more good music theory there so that's good! I 'think' it's not wanting to switch down to the key of E and it stays in C#m the whole time. I want it to still have some tension on the E because it then builds up and resolves to the C#m, which I definitely want to have a resolve feel. I thinking maybe it's all about timing here. I'm thinking now it needs a C#m resolve before I drop down to E. Then that keeps it in C#m and keeps E feeling tense. If I cut from B straight to E, it feels more like a key change, which I don't think I want. It's also not a pre chorus or anything, just a succession of chords leading up to the chorus in C#m. I thinking I could maybe cut the time of the B in half and put a quick C#m resolve then drop to the E. So instead of | A A | B B | E E | etc|, it would go | A A | B C#m | E E | etd |. That might do it. I'll experiment tonight. Thanks for the great reply! This parallel tonic thing is really helpful (as basic as it is, you got to start somewhere!).

Sorry for the hijack, but it's all in theory learning and I think still relevent to the topic!

First off, I like how you're giving it, its own identity! Having said this, do not force it to do anything it doesn't want to or what you think it wants to do. It'll tell you. I and everyone else can only merely suggest.

So, now you want tension (I could go on all day on this topic, but I won't! Lucky you! lol)

I'm going c/p the progression and analyze it again:

| C#m | C#m | E | E | F#m | E | A | B |   | C#m | C#m | E | E | F#m | E | A | B |  (i ... III ... iv-III-VI-VII)   

The first two chords evoke the Tonic-Parallel/Parallel-Tonic relationship, but it's in both lines:

C#m is the tonic-parallel to E Major. F#m is the tonic-parallel to A major. B is the parallel to G# minor.


So, I would throw in some of those chords in-between the ones you have written already (Bolded)


C#m-A-E-B / F#m-B-C#m / E-B-A-E / F#m-G#m7-C#m

That's the easiest way to get the tension while upping the resolutions.

Here's something for your E section: E-B-A-E / F#m-G#m-C#m / Bm7-E7-AMaj7-A6 / G#7sus-G#7-C#m

See how I temporarily went to E, but kept hints of C# minor before actually going back to it?

I embellished them, but they are taken from your original progression.

Something else you could do is go to the parallel of your initial key: (C# minor to C# Major in your song's case; the reverse for others - Major to Minor)
A classical example, would be Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWBSAcX0Lug (@ 40 bpm - looks extremely slow, but @ tempo, you're killing the piano! lol. Here it is at tempo (Brace yourself): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBA-38mzabs When you hear the F (E#), you are no longer in C# minor. It's temporarily reverts back to C# minor (E natural) (a couple of times) but ultimately ends in C# major.

Now, this may seem hard, but it's not. The V in both keys retains the same quality. (G = V in C major and minor; G# = V in C# major and minor, etc.)

Going back to the tension/resolution:

You can add additional notes, alter notes or alter the additional notes added or evoke substitutions. (That Tonic-Parallel is just one type) I will not evoke this until you're ready. Just make sure you understand the voice-leading dynamic because this is what creates the resolutions.

Btw, whomever, didn't understand your "hard transition," I sure you meant wanting to change smoothly instead of abruptly.

Though you said your song wasn't modulating, you can still go smoothly from chord to chord in one key. This is referred to as "walking" either up or down from one target chord to another.

Here's an example using the tried an true I-iv-ii-V-I: C-Am-Dm-G7-C

Instead of Am, I'm going to use C#dim7 because my target chord is Dm. So, I'll walk up instead of leap.

CMaj9-C#dim7-Dm-G7-C. The bass notes instead of C-A-D-G-C (leaping by fourths), I have smoother movememt. C-C#-D-G-C.

Another example: Em7-A7b9-Dm7-Db7-C. I'm going to sub Eb7 because the Em7 before it is only a halfstep above it while the Dm7 (the target chord) is a halfstep below it. Same with the Db7. Db is in-between C-D or D-C.

Em7-Eb7-Dm7-Db7-C. (Notice the chromatic bass line making the progression smoother. E-Eb-D-Db-C)  On a guitar using the E and A strings: E: 12-11-10-9-8; A: 7-6-5-4-3

Using your song again:

| C#m | C#m | E | E | F#m | E | A | B |  
| C#m | C#m | E | E | F#m | E | A | B |  

C#m-A-E-B / F#m-B-C#m / E-B-A-E / F#m-G#m7-C#m (The C#m part) 
E-B-A-E / F#m-G#m-C#m / Bm7-E7-AMaj7-A6 / G#7sus-G#7-C#m (The E + C#m part, which I'll explain)

The first four chords clearly establish E (I-V-IV-I) However, the next three establish C#m via the ii - or in this case - iv-v-i
The next phrase has one secondary dominant: Bm7 = iv/iv; added tones - Major sixth and Major seventh degrees while the last phrase is simply a V. 

However ... what looks like a VI chord is really a IV chord in first inversion. A6 = A-C#-E-F# = F#m7 = F#-A-C#-E. So, in essence, what we really have in the last phrase is this: F#m7 / G#7sus-C#m (iv-V7-i)

Remember, I'm only making suggestions, there's no rule that says you have to evoke this.

Btw, Matt - and to whoever else - you may want to check out this forum: http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/index.php

Yeah I'm thinking as a guitar player of course....we're very modal centered! 

Rus W

sharke


Yeah I'm thinking as a guitar player of course....we're very modal centered! 

Where does this leave jazz pianists or improvisers of other genres? They use the same jargon as guitar guys who use all the same things (Extensions, Alterations, Substitutions, etc.) They, however, may not discuss it at length like guitar guys. And we play modally, too; we just tend to dodge the other five. :)

Well the reason I said guitar players are very modal centered is because of the way we generally learn scales. We start with a box pattern minor pentatonic scale in the root position. Then we figure out the "blue" b5 note. Awesome! Then we learn the box patterns for the same scale up the rest of the fretboard. At some point (at least pre-internet) we picked up a guitar magazine that shows us the root position Aeolian. Whoa, it's almost the same as the pentatonic pattern, but with a couple extra notes! And now we sound like *insert favorite metal player here* running up and down that scale. From there, it's only a couple of guitar magazine lessons later before we've figured out that each box pattern is also the root pattern of a different "mode." From that point forward, we're Steve Vai. 

The blues is a fantastic learning experience for anyone who's fixated on harmonic "correctness." A good blues player will mix major and minor feels, often in the same bar. You can slide up to that major third note over a minor chord, and it still sounds great. And then on the IV chord you can continue to be harmonically ambiguous. 

The same goes for rhythm as well. When you listen to those old blues musicians playing solo they'll mix their bar lengths all over the place to match what they're singing. The rules are made to be broken. 

You could tty the appliation Band-in-a-Box. This is fun.
It has lot's of features where you can learn from. Amongst others it can suggest Chord Substitutions. This is a screenshot from the application:
 

Zonno, that's really cool.  Thanks!  I don't really want to buy BIAB now, but that's a cool feature. 

IK Obi...great website.  Thanks.  

I want to get back to this and delve into every post. Thanks again!  

Great ideas and cool word picture there. Thanks.  It's rather fun to start out with something totally different...so 'not what I always do.'  But it's so easy to slip back into I, IV, V.  Anyway, I've got enough ideas here to keep me going for ages.  Thanks again!  :) And welcome to the forum.

Yeah, I basically need some new scenery on the way home. :) 

One can only hope to write the worse music in the freedom of music history, which may still have some people liking it. And at least there will be those who state:" I don't like it", so what........................

Lynard Skynard did pretty well with D/C/G.

ZZ Top did pretty well with A/D/E.

Thanks, Jonas.  That's cool.  Sheesh...I can't even ask the correct question!    


Thanks for this.  I'll look into it soon.  :)  

@Rus: 

Your observations about voice leading are basically true enough, but I'll add my $0.02.

Strictly speaking (or even "freely" speaking) the inversion in tonal harmony is determined by the bass note and not the configuration of intervals in the treble.

I would add the following to your comment about the top note of the harmony as being the melody; every line of the harmony is melodic and it shouldn't necessarily be driven by the top note.  In fact, the motion of the root is the most important factor to consider when building the rest of the vertical intervals.

There are several different kinds of voice leading.  Strict voice leading has no parallel intervals, so the examples that you gave where there were two first inversion chords in succession, or two second inversion chords in succession, do not fit that category.  It IS perfectly acceptable, but it is technically parallel voice leading.  There's also bracket voice leading and voice leading that I'll call modal parallelism (moving intervals up and down through a scale) and even more types of voice leading 
Open harmony has been common practice for centuries, and it does not impact the horizontal/melodic aspects in any way.  However, using open harmony can create unintended vertical dissonances.  For example, a C major 7 chord in drop-2 open position, with a C in the top voice and the "B" dropped down an octave, creates a b9 interval between the B and the C.  The "fix" (if the context demands it) is either to move the "B" down to an "A" or to move the "C" to a "D".  

So far, our discussion has been stuck in the limited prison of tonal harmony.  There is a way to observe all these voice leading principles in contexts that do not have a tonal center and the mathematical key to unlock it is found within the overtone series itself.  The overtone series also provides the key to truly writing one line at a time.   It's so simple that it's kinda embarrassing.

Hi Rus,

We're not on the exact "same page" as your progressions are still basically derived from the "gravity" of the circle of fourths/tonal root motion (albeit with added secondary dominants).  I'll give concrete examples of leaving that "orbit" and moving away from tonality a bit later.

Before we do that, let's start with what you call chord resolutions or what I call substitute tones, which have both resolutions as well as reverse resolutions.

Strictly speaking there is no such thing as a Csus2/4 chord as you are using two different substitute tones (D and F) to substitute for a single tone (E).  If you drop the C from the treble structure, the D is a "2 for 1" substitute tone and the F is a "4 for 3" substitute tone. This also maintains the integrity of using three-note structures throughout the passage. The motions of substitute tones can also be reversed. At its essence, this is creating nice contrapuntal motion within what would otherwise be static chords.
  
The "fix" that I originally described is what I call a "compensating tone", i.e., I am getting rid of the dissonant b9 interval (it's not a good sound on a C major 7 chord in open position).  b9 intervals are easier to create than one may realize and things just sound better when that vertical interval is corrected by moving one of the tones involved by step, which also creates the additional benefit of a little contrapuntal motion.

I've taken your original progression in the key of C major and I put it through several permutations which ultimately move out of anything having to do with any tonal center, yet it all sounds perfectly logical. I'll leave it to you to do your own analysis.  Now just imagine what progressions are possible if the "original" triadic progression isn't confined to a tonal center, but still voice-lead correctly. 


MP3 audio: http://bit.ly/QoszU7

Hi Rus,

No apology needed as no offense was taken.  

My examples above are "over-baked".  It was more a demonstration of technique than an actual composition.  That said, the bottom progression with the moving lines removed is extremely usable.

Context is king.