tok2burn
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Control Surfaces for Sonar
I just upgraded to X3 (the comping is great), but I am really disappointed in the lack of support for control surfaces that are useable in most other DAW's; I have played with ACT, but so far it has been a real PITA except for the meager interface with the VS-20 (no pan, solo, mute buttons, etc...).
For example, I have a Maschine Mk2 and its integration with Live 9 is just superb; and probably even better with then new Maschine 2.0 software. I'd like to use the Maschine MkII to control Sonar, but if there is an easy way, I sure don't know it.
Other controllers (nanoKontrol, etc) do well with Live as well.....
But Sonar only plays well with its very expensive surface controllers (Vs-500, 700), and even then, only in a very limited way.... I guess Frontier Audio's design works OK, but is that all there is?
Or am I missing something
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 12:50:22
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Mackie protocol is supported, most serious controllers support this. I use V-Control Pro on my iPad and it works well.
A cheap piece of hardware that supports Mackie protocol is the Behringer BCR2000. I have no experience with that one, just saying you don't have to splurge on the VS-series necessarily.
Honestly I don't think actual mixing is in the end very useful to do with a control surface. Or not for me. Modern mixes rely a LOT on automation (which IS nice to program, at least the initial "curve", with a control surface) and extreme precision. I end up using the mouse or entering the exact value with the keyboard more than I do with a control surface. For basic transport controls, I don't think it's too hard to program something like Maschine?
EDIT: Just my opinion, based on my personal workflow. I see your point, just trying to throw out some perspective and alternatives.
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CJaysMusic
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 12:55:11
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But Sonar only plays well with its very expensive surface controllers (Vs-500, 700), and even then, only in a very limited way That is not true! It works well with allot of inexpensive controllers and mid priced controllers. I use the Euphonix (not expensive) and it works great with Sonar X3b Cj
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tok2burn
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 12:59:05
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I must be missing something then. I selected Mackie Control Surface, and Machine MK2 for both MIDI in/out, and no result. (Can't even get it to Learn.) Oh well, at least I have track select/volume and machine control with the VS-20....
I'll keep reading, but last time I tried this it didn't work after spending a lot of time with it...., so there is a point where I just give up (I really don't need another control surface in my possession..)
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hockeyjx
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 13:00:31
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Thankfully my FW-1884 still works well in X3.
I was really concerned about that!
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 13:38:05
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Huh, funny, I had never realized Maschine even had a Mackie Control template. I just tried it with Sonar and you're right - it doesn't work. It's stuck on connecting. After googling some, it turns out this happens with some other devices too, but nobody I saw got Maschine to work. It seems Sonar is looking for some kind of handshake that's not happening or something. It would be great if this could be fixed, since apparently Maschine Mackie protocol works fine in other DAWs.
A half work-around I've found is that it kinda works if you select the VS-700 protocol instead. Keep Maschine on the Mackie control. I haven't tested everything yet but you seem to get at least basic transport and navigation control and probably more. Someone recommended it for the Behringer X32, which apparently also doesn't work with Sonar via Mackie Control (I can verify it works fine with Logic 9 via Mackie protocol, as I used it yesterday). I'll start a more specific post and see if we can get some more attention for this.
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WallyG
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 13:46:59
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Sanderxpander
...
Honestly I don't think actual mixing is in the end very useful to do with a control surface. Or not for me. Modern mixes rely a LOT on automation (which IS nice to program, at least the initial "curve", with a control surface) and extreme precision. I end up using the mouse or entering the exact value with the keyboard more than I do with a control surface. For basic transport controls,....
I agree. I have both a Sonar V-Studio 100 and a Novation Impulse. I bought the Impulse before I could build my home studio since it was cheap (<$200), light and I could use it my office temporarily to enter midi stuff. I thought I would like all the faders and control knobs, but found it was easier to use the mouse or on occasion the fader on the 100. I used Sonar for several months until I realized that you didn't have to click on a control and move the mouse up or down to move the control. You can also click on it and use the mouse wheel. DUH! Much easier and better resolution. Walt
Roland Jupiter 80, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland BK-7m, Yamaha Montage 6, ARP Odyssey, Excelsior Continental Artist, Roland FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 Professional, Melodyne Studio 4, Behringer X-Touch, RME Fireface UCX, MOTU MIDI Express XT - ADK Pro Audio Hex Xtreme 6 Core i7 4.5GHz, 64GB, 480GB SS, 3 X 3TB Hard Drives, Win 10, 2 X 27" & 1X 46" Monitors, My WEB site - www.gontowski.com/music
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tok2burn
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 15:14:33
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I got it to recognize play, stop, FFW, and reverse using the Mackie in Sonar, but I had to delete the VS-20 to work with it. When I tried to "learn" a fader for one of the knobe , the fader jerked back and forth between two values and it would set to a cc.
The VS-20 is the best option for me, but it is kind of underwhelming (I don't use the V-Studio software)...
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John
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 15:30:12
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I use a Mackie Control with X3 and it works very well indeed for mixing. What we MC users are not too happy about is the non support for plugins or PC with the MC.
Precision is a function of the CS in question. The MC has a 14 bit fader precision. Not all CSs have this.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 15:31:09
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I don't really get what you mean here. Delete the VS-20?
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konradh
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 15:31:39
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I love the VS-700 but it is no longer in production.
My next surface might be a Nucleus but 1-that is expensive! and 2-not sure how well it would integrate.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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tok2burn
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 15:37:52
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SanderExpander: Uncheck the VS-20 and delete it from the Controller Surface list.
John: The actual Mackie may work; it may be the NI Maschine template. I'll write them and see if there is any result...
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 16:01:50
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Right. Strange. Even with no other control surfaces Maschine doesn't work for me using MC.
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Phoenix
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 16:52:13
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I haven't tried it with X3 yet, but my Korg NanoKontrol worked right out if the box with X2, just by selecting Mackie like the Korg website said.
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tok2burn
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 17:10:21
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Ok, looks like it works with the VS-700 as well; I can get solo, mute, volume and mashine start/stop, loop depending on selecting pages with the arrow keys...
Going to try my nanoKontrol next...
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tok2burn
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 17:13:17
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Where on the Korg website? Do you have a nanoKontrol 1 or 2? (important, since the 2 acts as a standard MIDI device) Phoenix
I haven't tried it with X3 yet, but my Korg NanoKontrol worked right out if the box with X2, just by selecting Mackie like the Korg website said.
post edited by tok2burn - 2013/10/09 17:31:59
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tok2burn
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 18:18:27
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It looks like the VS-700 is the best choice for Maschine. I can get most of the basic functions (The group buttons control track selection, mute, solo, record, and I don't know what group E does...) Also the page controls pages through the various choices, with buttons at the top for groups (Mute, Solo, ), with pan, etc. Don't know what the vpots do, maybe Learn?)
Scroll knob controls position....
The bottom row of pads can also be used for the various functions..
Still not complete clear about everything, and Maschine doesn't have some of the capability of the VS-700/Mackie Control, but it is useable... on my computer anyway..
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studio343
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/09 20:17:37
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Just curious.. instead of a Control Surface.. couldn't you press into service a Touch Monitor? Would that not do the same thing? I ask because I was planning to get a Touch Monitor for "mixing" and stuff... I have an Alphatrack AND a Faderport (and a BCF2000 somewhere).. and usually use the Alphatrack.. and the Faderport does NOT work.. I've had issues getting it installed and recognized by Sonar X2 and X3 (x64 version)..
Anyways.. seems that a decent Touch Monitor can be had for like $300 or so.. would be less expensive than a Mackie Control. =)
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John
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/10 09:10:43
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I apologize to all in this thread I must have misread this thread and thought it was about not being able to connect.
If you know me you also know I am a strong supporter of the MC and have repeatedly asked for updates to the DLL. What is being said here is close to my heart. I support this thread completely.
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deanx
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/10 10:23:56
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studio343
Just curious.. instead of a Control Surface.. couldn't you press into service a Touch Monitor? Would that not do the same thing? I ask because I was planning to get a Touch Monitor for "mixing" and stuff... I have an Alphatrack AND a Faderport (and a BCF2000 somewhere).. and usually use the Alphatrack.. and the Faderport does NOT work.. I've had issues getting it installed and recognized by Sonar X2 and X3 (x64 version)..
Anyways.. seems that a decent Touch Monitor can be had for like $300 or so.. would be less expensive than a Mackie Control. =)
I think tok2burn was more hoping to control Sonar with what he already owns rather than splashing out on more kit. He's also using Windows 7 which I think is capable of some touch functionality (with tweaking) but not on the same level as Windows 8. As for touch screen monitors I'm looking into the Acer T272HLbmidz 27". If anyone has tried one of these I'd appreciate feedback. Apologies for Hijack. Carry on
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2013/10/10 11:30:54
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My Tascam Fw 1884 works awesome still in X3, And I only use it as control surface and I use my Roland Quad Capture as my interface..
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
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BuleriaChk
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/24 19:20:46
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☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2016/11/24 20:32:37
I wrote my original post a long time ago (I am now on Win10 pro, x64), and nothing seems to have changed. ACT seems absolutely worthless, since it involves programming every interface one uses painfully. I am convinced Sonar's Mackie ACT template is seriously broken (the Mackie template for my NI equipment works perfectly implemented as Mackie control surface in Ableton Live, independently of the template they provide- which is also flawless. NOTHING I have tried with Mackie templates have worked - if I set ACT to VS-100, sometimes they will work a little, but inconsistenly.)
WTF? Why can't Sonar get it together and provide user libraries (at least) for ACT templates, and provide templates for up to date controllers rather than the tired old outdated controllers now in the ACT list. Or, f'chrissake, bite the bullet and produce one that works...
(I just ordered a nanoKontrol Studio, since Korg says it will work with Sonar Even then, Korg says the markers don't work with their template ... Silly me, I am NOT hopeful, but at least I can return it to Amazon. Sonar could at least provide a list of current surface controllers that DO work.)
This is a reason I NEVER work in Sonar anymore; Native Instruments and Ableton are just so much better and easy to work with with their control surfaces I Hate using the mouse for volume sliders and solo/mute buttons, and having to do Midi learn for every fricken controller I use, and even then, they don't work from project to project. ....
I may be missing something here, but.... SHEESH!
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chuckebaby
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/24 20:38:03
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I use a Mackie MCU that is about 10 years old in Sonar and it works perfect.
Ive used ACT to set up my M Audio Oxygen 49 and had no problem with it.
I don't see the point in your rant.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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BuleriaChk
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/24 22:58:42
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chuckebaby
I use a Mackie MCU that is about 10 years old in Sonar and it works perfect.
Ive used ACT to set up my M Audio Oxygen 49 and had no problem with it.
I don't see the point in your rant.
Then you've obviously never used Ableton Live or Maschine  Especially with a Push 2 or Maschine Studio... (I'm not about to buy an Oxygen to find out.... you were lucky. And maybe a bit limited in versatility.. ) Did the Oxygen use a Mackie template? But I'll report back on the nanoKontrol Studio - although there have been some negative reviews on KVR and elsewhere vis a vis Sonar (supposedly one just has to press two keys when starting up to set the Sonar mode..) .... Not only that, a Mackie MCU won't fit in my backpack with my laptop on my motorcycle when I'm working in the picnic grove.... I have no doubt that the Mackie template works with a Mackie, though .. things have, uh, changed in 10 years :)
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John
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/25 00:11:24
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I suspect its really a matter of what one expects from a CS. It may have a great deal to do with the type of music being created. I don't see what a favorable view has anything to do ones versatility. That one is pleased with the gear they use and gets a response that tends to depreciate it seems unnecessary. A member is simply relating their experience with gear and Sonar. I also use a CS it is a Mackie Control even older then an MCU and it works very well indeed for what I ask it to do. You may have needs that are different from mine or Chucks. There is nothing wrong with that. What is a problem is disrespecting a member for voicing an opinion. One given in a spirit of sharing for the benefit of others. I am responding to this. chuckebaby
"I use a Mackie MCU that is about 10 years old in Sonar and it works perfect.
Ive used ACT to set up my M Audio Oxygen 49 and had no problem with it.
I don't see the point in your rant."
BuleriaChk
"Then you've obviously never used Ableton Live or Maschine
Especially with a Push 2 or Maschine Studio...
(I'm not about to buy an Oxygen to find out.... you were lucky. And maybe a bit limited in versatility.. )
Did the Oxygen use a Mackie template?
But I'll report back on the nanoKontrol Studio - although there have been some negative reviews on KVR and elsewhere vis a vis Sonar (supposedly one just has to press two keys when starting up to set the Sonar mode..) ....
Not only that, a Mackie MCU won't fit in my backpack with my laptop on my motorcycle when I'm working in the picnic grove.... I have no doubt that the Mackie template works with a Mackie, though .. things have, uh, changed in 10 years :)"
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DoctorCalabria
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/25 03:50:44
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FWIW I use my Behringer X32 as a CS and it works flawlessly. Basic functions load up by default (transport, faders, pan, etc) and setting up custom functions i.e. jogwheel, plugin parms was painless. I assume their dedicated CS works well too at a very reasonable price.
Sonar Version: Sonar Platinum Audio Interface: RME RayDAT w/ Behringer X32 and X-ADAT interfaceComputer: i7-4790k, 32GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro x64, Samsung SSD 500G, HGST 4G x 2, QNAP NASSW: iZotope Ozone 6, RX 4, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Plogue Bidule, Omnisphere, TrilianMIDI Controllers: A-Pro, NI Komplete Kontrol 61, Fatar 88, X32
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azslow3
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/25 04:16:15
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BuleriaChk
This is a reason I NEVER work in Sonar anymore; Native Instruments and Ableton are just so much better and easy to work with with their control surfaces I Hate using the mouse for volume sliders and solo/mute buttons, and having to do Midi learn for every fricken controller I use, and even then, they don't work from project to project. ....
I may be missing something here, but.... SHEESH!
So, if you NEVER work in Sonar, there is no point... But since you also ask what you miss: BuleriaChk
I wrote my original post a long time ago (I am now on Win10 pro, x64), and nothing seems to have changed.
Correct.
ACT seems absolutely worthless, since it involves programming every interface one uses painfully.
Depends what you expect. Only complicated cases require "programming". All simple surfaces required "configuring", which after reading 2 pages of documentation (Chapter 40 in the Sonar Reference Guide) takes half an hour at most. You do not call "programming" adjusting the level on your audio interface or routing your mixer, right?
I am convinced Sonar's Mackie ACT template is seriously broken (the Mackie template for my NI equipment works perfectly implemented as Mackie control surface in Ableton Live, independently of the template they provide- which is also flawless. NOTHING I have tried with Mackie templates have worked - if I set ACT to VS-100, sometimes they will work a little, but inconsistenly.)
"Mackie template" exists on devices only. And when "Mackie mode" implemented by a "template", it is NEVER implemented correctly. And yes, Mashine and most other controllers STILL HAVE NO correct implementation of Mackie PROTOCOL. Sonar has MackieControl PLUG-IN, which strictly implements Mackie PROTOCOL and refuse to work with anything without proper implementation of it. Mackie implementation in YOUR DEVICES is a FAKE. "Mackie compatible" devices work in other DAWs because these other DAWs are less restrictive. If you want the same behavior from Sonar, you can use my mod: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Mackie-Control-support-improvements-m3311275.aspx
WTF? Why can't Sonar get it together and provide user libraries (at least) for ACT templates, and provide templates for up to date controllers rather than the tired old outdated controllers now in the ACT list. Or, f'chrissake, bite the bullet and produce one that works...
Roland has tried... and ended with financial disaster, stopped producing them and sold CW 
(I just ordered a nanoKontrol Studio, since Korg says it will work with Sonar Even then, Korg says the markers don't work with their template ... Silly me, I am NOT hopeful, but at least I can return it to Amazon. Sonar could at least provide a list of current surface controllers that DO work.)
ANY. If you want that they work and you are ready to spend an hour for that. For "out of the box": * MCU Pro / X-Touch / (recent firmware, confirmed only by one user so far) qCon Pro * Presonus Faderport * Nektar Impact
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Ruckman65
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/25 06:43:15
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My BCF2000 works flawlessly with SPlat. I only wish I had two so I could directly control 16 tracks instead of 8. But, it is a great unit.
Win10 64bit Sonar Platinum ASUS SSD 128gb i7 Intel 2.8mhz Toshiba Portable HD 2 gb x 3 16gb memory Nvidia 960M Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk II Komplete Kontrol S49 Focusrite Sapphire 6i6
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pwalpwal
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/25 07:25:16
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fwiw, i have an apc40 and the integration with live is just wonderful, a real pleasure to use, with little-to-no setup effort fwiw2, i agree that cake have abandoned controls surfaces, but at least they open-sourced the code for that, even if it took a couple of years of badgering for it to actually happen...big thanks to azslow3 for picking up the ball and running with it! personally, i don t expect cake to suddenly start supporting cs again...
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chuckebaby
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Re: Control Surfaces for Sonar
2016/11/25 07:42:09
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BuleriaChk
chuckebaby
I use a Mackie MCU that is about 10 years old in Sonar and it works perfect.
Ive used ACT to set up my M Audio Oxygen 49 and had no problem with it.
I don't see the point in your rant.
(I'm not about to buy an Oxygen to find out.... you were lucky. And maybe a bit limited in versatility.. )
Did the Oxygen use a Mackie template?
It's not about luck my friend. Sonar has a preset in ACT for the Oxygen. it took about a whole 30 seconds to set up. There is a ton of presets built in to Sonar for use with ACT. Making it simple to set up most Control surfaces. Would I like to see Sonar expand on Control surface set ups ? Sure. But I would like a lot of other features too. We all work differently so its tough to categorize Sonars List of "Thing that need improvement". More often than not, that list is made up of personal needs (what I want / what you want). Some would argue Staff view improvements should come before Control surface improvements. See what I mean ? What ever the case, I wish you well.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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