yo jonbouy

did you read the thread i posted earlier?

"Jonbouy"
Sorry, I must dash I gotta go and impress my GF with my DPC latency figures...oh my.

"Jonbouy"
Windows 7, Turbo enabled, HPET disabled test project running for 12 hours at 32 buffers. Maximum DPC latency spike overnight 438us. 

Same test project, same test settings HPET enabled. Would not run at 32 buffers, minor crackling at 48 so run at 64 buffers. Maximum DPC spike 2,600 + us after 45 minutes. Retested 2308 us reported again after a few minutes, final try also ended in me not bothering further.

"Jonbouy"
That probably wouldn't concern you though as usually you'd need freinds or colleagues in order to partake in a collaboration...

That's something you know nothing about outside of these forums and my wife and my kids are my friends, that's all I need. Anything else is..., a bonus if it's meant to be. And if I knew someone that had no friends, I would be the first one in line to offer my friendship, such as I did with "jimmy". But only to find out that he was someone else's imaginary construct. But just like you, I didn't donate.

It makes perfect sense but it isn't what is wanted here.  HPET is working very well and performing more interrupts to the CPU for power management functions.
 
When we have the HPET time enabled these devices are constantly interrupting the CPU likely for PPM policy requests.
 
Instead of keep posting the same link which contains no information on it, re-read this bit that does.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2647881

Yo all of yous others: great exploration.

 
Yes it was a great exploration, and some pretty useful stuff from the guys at ADK.  It was a pity it turned into playground as there is some really good insights among the mud-slinging.
I think it is a real shame when we get input from some highly respected DAW builders that are dealing with this kind of thing daily on various systems for many users and they share their knowledge with us, only to have some point scoring smart alec's trying to big themselves up by being disrespectful, ignorant and contrary for the sake of it.
Thing is Windows isn't a dedicated DAW platform so we have to make the best use of it and give the dedicated Audio parts of it (like ASIO) the best chance possible against the underlying themes that Windows imposes such as networking and power management.
 
It's always about the best compromise.  And allowing turbo to run for performance sake and HPET disabled to mitigate the problems caused by other hardware drivers interrupts is easily the best way to go for the most power and effective low latency.  The testing is simple, as the differences are pretty obvious.

Well said Mandrake and I also appreciate your clear vision and respectful delivery. And I'm convinced you're not the only one sharing the opinion you have just laid out. Thank you for taking the time to do so. 

@Mandrake
 
I totally agree with your entire post.
 
That is contributing to the debate, and I certainly don't follow anyone blindly.
 
However I was refering to what actually happened to this thread in particular and the trolling mostly from one reknowned and ill-informed individual that was insisting on advocating tweaks that have long since been shown to have no bearing other than to impair the performance of your machine.
 
Sure you can disable core parking but losing 12% of your performance by losing your stock turbo capability isn't really a recommendation for anybodies needs.  Turning off all that Core Parking, Speedstep, C-States stuff incurs a penalty in performances whatever you are doing because it will limit your chip to it's standard multiplier and disable turbo, the upside you get fewer willd DPC peaks.  With HPET off and the rest re-enabled you lose the spkes gain your performance back and run much cooler.  This is the case for anyone running an ASIO driver at low-latency on a current Windows box.
 
All anyone has to do is test to realise it is true.  On this issue, for anyone running a music application via an ASIO driver, Scott is so right it should be pinned as a handy hint rather than debated.
 
btw on the portability front if you are touring and your gigs depend on it, I'd recommend a rack-mounted desktop over a laptop too...  If you are just doing small gigs out of the car a laptop will be fine as you are normally in an intimate enough position with your audience to explain what went wrong...

Alegria

"jm24"

If ALL drivers were properly coded, and we could disable all power reducing aspects of these drivers, using only HPET for timing would be prolly be the best choice.

I completely agree and have done so, with great results. And since I have other machines that I use for everyday non-audio related tasks, in my case this was possible.

 
 
 
Is it possible to disable the power bits of all the drivers?
 
I have always wondered if setting the "screen saver," hard disk spin down, computer sleep/hibernate,... actually disables the timers or just the triggers.
 
What I infer from JB, JSC, and others' comments, is the power-adjusting timers are integral to the drivers, and therefore cannot be disabled. So the power related timers for the video card, usb, pcie,... repeatedly remind the OS to effect the selected trigger. The faster HPET clock decreases the interval of this action, and the reminding happens more often resulting in more spikes per period of time. Disabling HPET reduces the number of spikes by reducing the clock speed.
 
 
I assume the various clocks we are referring to do more than just provide reference to the many power related timers. If not, why cannot all the reference clocks be disabled? Prolly cuz the timers would complain.
 
If disabling the "screen saver,...." actually stops the timers then stopping the clock removes another active non-useful process.
 
 
(And: disabling the C states, and speed step, are no longer necessary with the newest chips.)
 
JB has found, for his hardware combination, that disabling ONLY HPET reduces the affects of all the power stuff with one-swell-foop. Yet does allow the machine to reduce power use when not used for audio.
 
Allegria has found, for his hardware combination, that changing all power options to disabled and using ONLY the HPET clock provides the best performance for a box "dedicated" to the specific use of audio production. 
 
-------------------
 
I have been supporting windows computers for a few dozen clients for about 20 years. For these clients I only disable sleep mode and then adjust hibernate as needed.
 
(Sleep mode is stupid to me. And have had way too many problems with it.)
 
Even after all these years, I have limited knowledge of what is actually happening at the machine level. My focus has been on the users' need to get work done without the computer interfering.
 
My interest is squeezing every bit of performance from the machine which is "dedicated" to noise recording. I have always stopped auto-updating stuff, and disabling the OS power stuff.
 
The new motherboard, Black Edition 4 core chip, and ram, has many options that yearn for attention. Hence my interest in the topic, and the comments, of this thread.
 
j
 
 
 
 

"jm24"
These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.

I never disputed that fact. And I would go so far as to say that I would not hesitate to follow Scott's or Jim's advice on the choice of a motherboard for example (as that is one of the most important factors along with the chipset in getting a solid head start on managing/lowering DPC latency). But the gist of this thread was my disagreement with Scott's blanket statement about HPET. I don't agree that it applies to everyone without exception (certainly not to me and others in a similar scenario).

"jm24"
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.

And I also have recommended the same in the past. This is common sense. But the right question have to be asked to begin with..., such as:

"Alegria"
If we're going to get into specifics, I (we) need a bit more info such as:

1] What's your budget (an approximation will do)?
2] Is this budget flexible?
3] How silent do you want this machine to be?
4] What sample libraries are you using, if any... (eg. EWQL Hollywood series, Ominisphere, Trillian)?
5] Would you consider yourself a tweaker/geek or more of an artist that can't be bothered with such things?

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2638398

You can also notice in that particular thread how it flows with good and pertinent information. Also, notice how Jim intervenes in a non-confrontational way to set things straight with the graphic card. This is the beauty of a peer-to-peer forum when not having to deal with chest pounding "I know it all" attitudes.

jm24


>>And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending.
 
Being a curmudgeon does not correspond to a lack of knowledge. These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.
 
Do their products perform as described? Do they support the products the sell?  This is all that matters.
>> I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK".
 
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.
 
I was very fortunate 20+ years ago to be directed to a great car repair shop. I no longer wanted to be responsible for fixing and maintaining my vehicles. These guys want to fix cars. And I want them to.
 
Same with computers for most people.
 
j

 
I disagree that all that matters is the product. To me at least. Just my opinion, as I've stated, but that ADK guy's attitude is a turn off to me, in terms of me even buying anything from him. Maybe attitude and professionalism doesn't matter to some. But to me it matters quite a bit. But, like I also said, I realize he is helpful and well respected by many. Still, many people on peer to peer forums are very helpful and they aren't selling anything. Not picking on the guy. Just my opinion, as I've said.
 
 
and oy vey with the car analogies! lol. Cars and computers are not the same thing at all. A car needs specialized, expensive tools, lots of knowledge (far more than putting together a computer), its dirty, and if you don't' know what your doing you can end up stranded or dead. Its also very expensive. Parts and labor. I just got quoted $600 to repair my a/c. I can build a latest greatest computer for a little more than that. So its not the same thing.
 
 
Besides, if someone asks a question on how to restring their guitar, is the best answer to say, "just got to guitar center"? Or if they want to record at home.."just go to a studio"? That's how I see a lot of those recommendations.
 
 
In my opinion, its more sensible to learn your instruments. And for better or worse, we are married to our computers ( I love mine). Sure there is a learning curve. There is learning curve to Sonar and playing any instrument. And that learning curve is much higher than putting together a computer. Still, I understand the desire to not f around with it and have someone else do it for you. I've had them done for me before too. But in the end, I felt like I should have done it myself and saved the cash.
 
 
Maybe some get some peace of mind by hiring someone to build a computer. But there are drawbacks too. Expense is one. But also, what happens if there is an issue and it needs repair? You have to pack it up (real well) and ship it off (hoping the UPS guy isn't kicking it around, lol). Wait for it to get there. Get repaired. Be sent back...at best this is a week you are out. Probably more if they have to wait for the parts or are bz. Plus the expense and risk of the shipping. Better to just go to frys or microcenter and do it yourself ASAP, IMHO.
 
 
But again, these are just some of the drawbacks that I see, for me personally. And why I don't always think its the best option to recommend. But sometimes it is. Especially if you've got the $ for it. I just don't think making the blind recomdation is always the best advice.
 
And Algeria already stated perfectly why.
 
 
Anyway, what's wrong with asking a little more probing questions first before just doing the "just call adk or studi cat" thing? Maybe it's the best option for someone. Or maybe its, like I said, over-kill and needlessly expensive for someone. I think to give good advice, you need to find out a little more about the individual's needs.
 
 
But again, lol, not trying to fight or be disrespectful. Just my opinion.

>>>>>One of the stupidest comments I have read, and repeatedly read, is the recommendation that a novice should purchase the speakers/monitors that sound good to them, in a store environment that contains lots of other speakers, and drums,....
Way stupid. Since they know nothing they should NOT depend upon their uneducated ears. They need guidance. <<<<<<
 
 
I've never read that anywhere.  I always read about taking them to the listening environment and playing reference cd's you are very familiar.
But no one is talking about monitors.  Is the connection you are making that people, in your opinion,  are stupid?
 
 
>>>>Knowing how to USE a computer is not related to knowing how to configure, modify, update a computer. <<<<<<
 
Configure?  what... turn off a few services,  delete (and don't instal) certain programs, disable a few thing?  doesn't require much skill to do that.  Modify? modify what? add a new hard drive or ram?  Add a sound card or whatever? piece of cake.  Update?  easiest of all.  Really its not that hard at all.  Inconvenient maybe. And the need to do so is less and less as computer power grows.   Trying to scare people into thinking it is so difficult that only an expert can do it is wrong, in my view.  I'd like to  remove the curtain and empower people.  Not make a sale for my buddies or people I like.  
 
I mean unless im a genius (a strong possibility if my mother is to be believed lol),  this stuff is butt simple.  A learning curb yes.  But like I said, less than the one for learning Sonar or playing an instrument or music theory....or mixing..
 
 
>>>>>Many users think they know cuz they can figger how to change the desktop picture. <<<<
 
I really have not seen that and that is a very condescending view.
 
>>>>Most musicians will never have a clue about a computer's workings. And should not be expected to. <<<
 
 
Again is because you think they are too stupid?  What are these mysterious "inner workings"?  Its kind of a set it and forget it unless you'd rather spend your time with testing and "optimizing".  A fun hobby but I'd rather make music with my computer.  The day is here finally! Computers are now way powerful enough to accomplish just about any vision.
 
>>>The car analogy is apropos. I know enough to understand what my car guys tell me about the bits and pieces to ask reasonable questions. Most people do not. <<<
Again (I type that a lot!) , I disagree that cars and computers analogies are "apropos".  See above as to why.  No need to repeat.
>>>>>One of the most common problems I am currently responding to of late is the idiocy of Java, Adobe,.. installing virus scanners by default. And since most users DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ, they install these non-essential applications.
So they call me complaining that their computers are slow, and hang,... because 3 AV programs are running. And the browsers have 13 search bars,....
I clean the machine. I am patient. I explain. I teach. Very few learn. Cuz they are most interested in doing business, not learning about computer maintenance. As they should be. <<<<
 
 
This sounds like some rant born out of working in a support capacity.  And it sounds like a lot of exaggerating.  Of course that's what you deal with all day being in support.  So that,  IMHO,  clouds your judgment.  You don't get calls from people that are just fine and dandy. 
Plus it sounds like you really think people are stupid.
 
>>>The say Picasso was a major ****. Would you refuse a gift of his work? <<<
 
 
This one really made me laugh.  Picasso??  You think putting together a computer from the same exact parts anyone else can buy is like a world renown, legendary genius?  Boy I've heard of fan boys but you win the prize.  A Picasso is worth millions.  A 10 y/o computer (that prob cost $3-5 K when sold) is worth $100 now, at best.  And no, I would not refuse a Picasso.  lol.
 
>>>>If the audio-computer builders hired "beards" to address the public you would have no idea about their behavior. But because you know they do not "suffer fools lightly" means you will not ever purchase one of their products? You gonna make sure you always will know where they work, and what they do? <<<
 
 
See, there is that condescending thing. Whats wrong with responding in a professional manner?  That's the foolish part cause its a loss of $ and makes enemies when a simple little bit of professionalism would calm the waters. And fools? I've seen some very knowledgeable and well written counters to your Picasso.
 
 
>>>>I absolutely know that the majority of applicances in your house are made by organiztions that employ lots of ****s. I figger ya got a micro, toaster,..<<<<
So lets all just rollover and take it?   Or, a different approach would be to support people and things we feel are better for the world or just better for ourselves.  I don't want to support someone like your Picasso.  See my earlier posts for why.  Just my opinion though.  I realize you have a different one. 
 
>>>>I am surmising you are young. You will learn to be less judgemental. More tolerant.
Or else not.
j
j <<<<
 
Ahh the old tactic of a personal attack.  To me, when someone resorts to this,  they are on the losing end of the argument.  It's a desperation tactic.
Anyway...
Less judgmental and more tolerant?  Of a rude, condescending, and hostile computer maker?  Too many options out there to reward that.
 
 
But his has gone farther than what I am interested in spending my time doing. 
 
 My point is that the advice of the expert is often good and worth considering.  But it's not always the best or even definitive advice in all situations.  Thats all the point I was really trying to make. 

well i said i was done with this thread but evidently not.

mandrake,
i am a pretty busy guy, and post in several forums, due to this my posts are short, blunt and to the point. i dont have time to sugar coat it, or be polically correct. (not that i care anyway about politically correct)
i am not here for a popularity party what you see is what you get.
and i dont have to explain myself. funny about ever 6 months someone like you pops up..

1) i dont have to post on forums to help people and i do a lot of helping. even you have said as much.

2nd there is a huge amount of false and or bad info given on forums i am constantly having to deal with mis-information.
this thead is a good example.
i dont get ornery until i have to repeat myself 3 times or get attacked. (niether ever happens.. right)

you can take my advice or leave it, up to you. how i deliver it should be mostly irreleveant, at least to a point.

yet here you are doing what i am accused of? thats hillarious dude..
and if you think for a minute i am losing money due to my posts guess again.

we always ask to the client "how did you find us" we get 3 answers (we dont advertise at all period)
1) a friend refered me
2) internet search
3) forum postings/forum referrals

3 is the most common with 1 behind it.. so much for that thought... oh and to be clear thats not why i post never has been.. just a side effect that well i happen to like.  just incase you were thinking of going there..

frankly i wouldnt want you as a client you are way to smart for me.. its eveident you dont need my services, as after all building pro audio/vidio computers are so easy and there is never any compatibility issues ...  (amazing i stil have a job must be the snake oil i sell)

funny this usually comes from a guy doing 10-15 tracks and has no need of low latency and is not a pro user.
generally thinks his system is finely tuned (oh wait no need for that either)
and his 1600 ram is probably running @ 1066 and dont even know it..

to all those who are so smart i say come here and work for a few months.. and get to see first hand how simple it really is
how there is never any compatibility issues, (obviously never build a socket 2011)
and benchmark the performace gains from our un-needed useless tweaks and bios settings..

you know why i get to be so cocky?  i have seen every possible issue/scenario out there, every problem that can happen every compatibility potential as well as how NOT to do something. and resolved them all. been doing this longer than anyone (in biz non stop)
so i also have a system/setup longeivity idea as well. (only Roseberry has been around technicaly longer but took a few hiatus')

lastly i dont claim to be that smart but i am smart enough to surround myself with employees who are.

when you debate with me you are debating with 12 people, most of who have been in this industry a very long time..

carry on the company bashing now..
 
just realized this is like the 3rd or 4th time you have tried this nonsense with me..  the others on Gearslutz..

Wow.

This thread is a bloody disgrace.
 
Somebody who has experience has given some good tips on getting the most out of your DAW and has been backed up by his tech support guy on why it works has just met with the most appaling disrespect from those I can only imagine haven't tried any of the suggestions put forward.
 
If they had they will have seen the tangible benefits and not be limiting themselves to non-turbo speeds into the bargain.
 
It's just disrespectful posturing of the most puerile order and not one person has provided a shred of anything to back up any of the criticisms.  The reason being is nobody can back them up with anything practical or provide anything better.
 
All I can say is my system is setup exactly has been recommended here, and has been for some time, and there have been no downsides compared to limiting my CPU to it's non turbo speed and gaining intermittent pops and clicks at low latencies (down to 32 buffers) due to having HPET enabled. 
 
Remember I have absolutely zero affiliation with Scott or any hardware specialist that comes on this forum, but I've certainly learned where the good dope on configuring a DAW comes from.  I try what is suggested and if it works I run with it.  Scott has provided more pearls on this board than anyone I can think of and I personally can't thank him enough.
 
If anyone wants to scoff at that some more then feel free.  Personally though I'd rather see some more of the good stuff.  Anyone got any?

"Jonbouy"
This thread is a bloody disgrace.

I agree. Because of your OT personal attacks and disregard of your own good counsel on how to conduct yourself in a peer to peer forum.

"Jonbouy"
Personally though I'd rather see some more of the good stuff. Anyone got any?

"Bitflipper"
Far and away the best optimization anyone can do is to dedicate the machine to the single purpose of being an audio workstation.