Audioicon
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Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
There are lots of blame to go around.
But lets put the BS chameleon behavior aside.
How would you do things differently if you were in charge of Cakewalk?
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Annabelle
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 20:33:56
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One thing I would do, probably the most important thing of all, if I were in charge of Cakewalk, is make sure the software is programmed with everybody in mind. Not just the sighted, but those musicians who are blind as well. After all, music is not only what you see with your eyes, but what you hear with your ears!
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Slugbaby
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 20:41:41
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Audioicon
How would you do things differently if you were in charge of Cakewalk?
I would take the positive feedback from this forum, and add it to my resume (and confidence) when going to look for a new job.
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bluzdog
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 20:44:52
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Assess blame = job 1  Rocky
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paulo
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 20:58:53
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I think it's fair to say that they and the head cheerleader haven't exactly been totally honest in all of this. I guess CW couldn't exactly say...."hey folks....check out our discounted sale of the prices we only just put up and this great new whatever the point of it is that we just made. Please, please buy this stuff soon or we'll probably go bust and all you who paid for lifetime updates will have been screwed over, but you probably knew it was too good to be true really, right?"
I don't think anybody can say what they would have done differently as none of us know the numbers and what they were up against/having to deal with, but IMO the promised info re self authorisation should have accompanied the initial announcement - would have saved a lot of anxiety for their customers. I guess that maybe they had no control over that.
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denverdrummer
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 21:23:18
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Blame is not the word to use. Were there missteps? for sure, but it's more about what the market will bear. When the Betamax vs VHS wars were going on, the inferior technology won out? Why? Market saturation.
I haven't seen any recent number since 2014, but back then Sonar was the 4th or 5th most installed DAW on Windows computers, when it was a Windows only DAW! This was a company that didn't make hardware, so it was impossible to get the kind of market saturation necessary to sustain itself. At some point this was going to come crashing down.
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35mm
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 21:52:34
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☄ Helpfulby THambrecht 2017/11/27 21:57:39
I don't think the blame lies with Cakewalk. If it wasn't for Gibson Cakewalk would more than likely still be going onward.
Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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200bpm
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 21:57:28
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Maybe selling themselves to Roland was the death knell?
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sharke
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:00:57
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☄ Helpfulby wetdentist 2017/11/28 18:59:23
I should think in reality there's a lot of blame to go round, both Gibson and Cakewalk. At the end of the day Cakewalk were responsible for the direction the program was headed, and that direction was not enough to attract new users in the kind of numbers that would have saved the company. I've said it a lot before and I still think it's true - Cakewalk did not do enough to attract fresh new amateur bedroom producers.
These kids aren't miking up drums and guitars and soundproofing rooms and recording bands, they're using synths and samplers and a plethora of modern electronic production techniques to make contemporary styles of music, and they're doing it in small rooms on headphones. There was literally nothing steering this market demographic to Sonar instead of FL and Ableton. Pro Tools has the pro studio market cornered, and it was frequently apparent to me that Sonar's core base continued to be older guys who write and produce more traditional forms of music.
Ask the question "how long have you been using Sonar" either on this forum or the Facebook groups, and 90% of the answers will be along the lines of "Since the DOS days - here's a photo of my original floppies!" or "been using it since 1998." You'll be lucky to see a single person who says they just started using it. It had an image as a long in the tooth DAW popular with aging guitarists, even though it is better than things like Ableton and FL in so many ways. Many here never saw a problem with that and said they were happy to use a program which doesn't appeal to kids. Well, those kids have money - their parent's money - and Cakewalk needed it. Desperately.
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35mm
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:06:33
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sharke
I should think in reality there's a lot of blame to go round, both Gibson and Cakewalk. At the end of the day Cakewalk were responsible for the direction the program was headed...
But were they? We have no idea what constraints their overlords at Gibson put on them. We don't know if the free lifetime updates were Cakewalk's idea or imposed on them by Gibson.
Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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Audioicon
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:08:59
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35mm
I don't think the blame lies with Cakewalk. If it wasn't for Gibson Cakewalk would more than likely still be going onward.
I have to agree with you on this one. What bothers me is this, did Gibson not have a plan for the future? What I mean is, when you acquired a company, you have plans and also contingency plans. However, given how things unfolded here, I am left to wondered if Gibson really cared, to me it looks as if Cakewalk was thrown out of a flying airliner with no parachute.
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BobF
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:20:21
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2017/11/28 00:06:58
No need for blame. Businesses shut down. It happens. IMO, Roland and then Gibson provided life support for Cakewalk and kept them going longer. I don't know what I would've done differently because I don't know the details of what they did do. How could any of us know without being on the inside? Cake had a good run. Barring a last minute turn around of some sort, I'll just say thanks and offer my best wishes to the folks that work(ed) there. Cake employed some really smart folks so I won't be surprised in the least if some products come to the market from them under a new name. Phoenix Audio? 
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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sharke
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:27:25
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35mm
sharke
I should think in reality there's a lot of blame to go round, both Gibson and Cakewalk. At the end of the day Cakewalk were responsible for the direction the program was headed...
But were they? We have no idea what constraints their overlords at Gibson put on them. We don't know if the free lifetime updates were Cakewalk's idea or imposed on them by Gibson.
In terms of Sonar's feature set, no I do not believe that was Gibson's doing. I didn't notice any directional shift in the feature set of the program between Roland and Gibson. I'd agree that the lifetime updates scam was probably Gibson's influence. I'd guess that their bean counters probably saw it as a way to raise some ready cash from a company that was low on revenue.
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paulo
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:27:39
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2017/11/28 19:50:24
35mm
I don't think the blame lies with Cakewalk. If it wasn't for Gibson Cakewalk would more than likely still be going onward.
Hmm, not sure about that really....I doubt that Roland wanted to get rid because of how well they were doing.
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THambrecht
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:38:58
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Nethertheless it's outrageous that there is no really statement from Gibson. Except they concentrate about their sinking core bussiness. (Afterwards the Gibson manager went to play golf?)
They don't say us how long the authorisation servers will run. They don't say us how we can offline activate our "lifetime" software. No explanation - the customer is in the rain.
As if it's none of Gibson's business.
Thank god that I'm from germany and have to translate my statements, because of my restrictes english - if this would be a german forum I have written a lot more.
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VinylJunkie
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:46:37
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Marketing. Or lack of.
We all know Sonar is a top DAW but it seemed to have developed a negative reputation in some quarters it couldn't shake off. How many times have you seen it slated on sites like Gearslutz by people who have never used it?
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jude77
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:46:44
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2017/11/28 19:51:16
BobF
No need for blame. Businesses shut down. It happens. IMO, Roland and then Gibson provided life support for Cakewalk and kept them going longer.
I don't know what I would've done differently because I don't know the details of what they did do. How could any of us know without being on the inside?
Cake had a good run. Barring a last minute turn around of some sort, I'll just say thanks and offer my best wishes to the folks that work(ed) there. Cake employed some really smart folks so I won't be surprised in the least if some products come to the market from them under a new name. Phoenix Audio?
Craig Anderton said essentially the same thing when he said Gibson didn't kill CW, it just buried the body. CW was, and has been, losing money for years. How long was Gibson supposed to keep pumping cash into a dying brand? CW death isn't Gibson's fault, they just ended up being the one who pulled the plug.
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THambrecht
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:46:44
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This is currently on the website of Gibson:
... Millions of musicians worldwide—including Grammy® and Emmy®-winning producers, composers, sound designers, and engineers—use Cakewalk products daily to produce audio for the professional music, film, broadcast, and video game industries.
We digitize tapes, vinyl, dat, md ... in broadcast and studio quality for publishers, public institutions and individuals.4 x Intel Quad-CPU, 4GHz Sonar Platinum (Windows 10 - 64Bit) and 14 computers for recording tapes, vinyl ...
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StepD
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:47:46
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/11/27 22:59:54
From what we know, Gibson's CEO was a cakewalk user, so there was at least some personal interest involved when Gibson bought CW. We were also told from the beginning that CW would remain pretty autonomous. Personally, I think there should have been more synergy, at least on the marketing side. I feel like the developers did some of their best work during the Gibson time, and that was pretty awesome for the installed base. But there obviously wasn't enough growth in the user base, and their revenue stream really seemed to drop in the past few years from my perspective. New products were few and far between, which may have been due to staff reduction, but who knows...
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sharke
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:55:50
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/11/27 23:00:04
To (potentially) correct myself, an ex-Cakewalk employee has said on Reddit that the lifetime updates idea was actually Cakewalk's idea under Noel's leadership, so maybe it actually was a scheme with good intentions and not a Gibson scam. https://www.reddit.com/r/...ISAK8R&sh=2dc889b3
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Edsagoodn
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 22:58:26
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Have to agree with Sharke. Making music is no longer just the domain of the musician. I have seen so many comments on the forum about people needing to understand music theory better or to read the guide thoroughly. A lot of new music makers don't want or need to understand this. Pulling Sounds. chords, progressions together to make something they like is what a lot are looking for and this without regard for accepted musical norms or requires what we would call an acceptable level of musicianship. Sonar did not seem to see this market and focused on the 'old school' music makers. The ever improving Sonar has made ideal for me but a complex mountain of knowledge to dig through for the growing market of new music makers. It's all about change.
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fitzj
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 23:00:38
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Basically, Cakewalk was in trouble when it sold to Roland. Why it got into trouble and sold out we will probably never know.
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Bonjo
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 23:17:31
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Slightly off-topic but my stock answer to the bellyachers in life or on forums who decry Sonar for other DAWs is "Oh, so you make BEATS?" 
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BobF
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 23:55:22
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THambrecht
This is currently on the website of Gibson:
... Millions of musicians worldwide—including Grammy® and Emmy®-winning producers, composers, sound designers, and engineers—use Cakewalk products daily to produce audio for the professional music, film, broadcast, and video game industries.
Obviously Marketing Speak. Sales people will say anything
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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John T
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/27 23:57:38
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2017/11/28 13:37:14
We don't actually know the inside detail of what did happen, and almost certainly never will, so we can't really say what we'd have done differently. Don't judge someone til you've walked a mile in their shoes and all that.
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Jari
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/28 00:00:20
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Bonjo
Slightly off-topic but my stock answer to the bellyachers in life or on forums who decry Sonar for other DAWs is "Oh, so you make BEATS?"
That's a good one! 
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aidanodr
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/28 00:04:48
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John T
We don't actually know the inside detail of what did happen, and almost certainly never will, so we can't really say what we'd have done differently. Don't judge someone til you've walked a mile in their shoes and all that.
Have ye been reading the other thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Someone-from-Cakewalk-is-doing-a-Reddit-AMA-ask-me-anything-m3696996.aspx A reddit AMA ( ASK ME ANYTHING ) from former Cakewalk Employee .. Sounds genuine via the info mentioned TBH: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cakewalk/comments/7fwb6h/former_employee_here_ama/?st=JAISAK8R&sh=2dc889b3
Here is a kind of semi-timeline of events from my perspective:
- Hoover took over. Stagnation galore and then it got sold to Gibson. ****ty releases like Rapture Pro, money burned and stagnation carried on. Fun fact under the Hoover regime a guy was paid to push a button that opens the door for visitors. He was paid to do this for years. Im not that high on the pyramid but from those who I talked to everyone blames him for the beginning of the end.
- Noel took over. The lifetime plan rolled out. The plan was really solid but development dropped the ball, every release was late none of the plan was committed to.
- A replacement was found in someone with product experience. Things were getting back on track new money sources were in the works. Software takes time and it was sadly to little to late. All the ****ty managers dogpiled on the guy who was actually moving things in the right direction and Gibson shut it all down.
There is no CEO of Cakewalk. The person overseeing Cakewalk also manages Gibson Pro Audio. She means well but doesn't know anything about software and placed her faith in the most ret***est of employees. Im not in touch with everyone but I heard that the guy who was in charge of sales at cakewalk got a job at Gibson. Which is hilarious because that guy was ****ing awful, could barely use SONAR and sucked at sales. He was on really good terms with the Pro Audio manager.
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ibediggin
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/28 00:06:13
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2017/11/28 13:38:08
i would have had more discussions that are totally useless like this one
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John T
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/28 00:13:58
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aidanodr
John T
We don't actually know the inside detail of what did happen, and almost certainly never will, so we can't really say what we'd have done differently. Don't judge someone til you've walked a mile in their shoes and all that.
Have ye been reading the other thread:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Someone-from-Cakewalk-is-doing-a-Reddit-AMA-ask-me-anything-m3696996.aspx
A reddit AMA ( ASK ME ANYTHING ) from former Cakewalk Employee .. Sounds genuine via the info mentioned TBH:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cakewalk/comments/7fwb6h/former_employee_here_ama/?st=JAISAK8R&sh=2dc889b3
Here is a kind of semi-timeline of events from my perspective:
- Hoover took over. Stagnation galore and then it got sold to Gibson. ****ty releases like Rapture Pro, money burned and stagnation carried on. Fun fact under the Hoover regime a guy was paid to push a button that opens the door for visitors. He was paid to do this for years. Im not that high on the pyramid but from those who I talked to everyone blames him for the beginning of the end.
- Noel took over. The lifetime plan rolled out. The plan was really solid but development dropped the ball, every release was late none of the plan was committed to.
- A replacement was found in someone with product experience. Things were getting back on track new money sources were in the works. Software takes time and it was sadly to little to late. All the ****ty managers dogpiled on the guy who was actually moving things in the right direction and Gibson shut it all down.
There is no CEO of Cakewalk. The person overseeing Cakewalk also manages Gibson Pro Audio. She means well but doesn't know anything about software and placed her faith in the most ret***est of employees. Im not in touch with everyone but I heard that the guy who was in charge of sales at cakewalk got a job at Gibson. Which is hilarious because that guy was ****ing awful, could barely use SONAR and sucked at sales. He was on really good terms with the Pro Audio manager.
Speaking as someone who's been at companies right through to the bitter end of a tailspin, that all sounds believable. Going to read the whole thread now. The thing is, whatever went wrong, it clearly didn't go wrong just last week. It's never like that. Mistakes will have piled on mistakes, and yes, the "get rid of the actual workers, but keep all the management" is a surprisingly common scenario, and it always ends like this. So I'm still saying "we don't know". We'd have to have a decade deep insight, I think, going all the way back to the pre-Roland conditions, and tracking everything in detail from then onwards. Monday morning quarterbacking is always pointless.
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aidanodr
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Re: Do you blame Cakewalk in Part or in Whole and how would you do it differently?
2017/11/28 00:17:33
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As I said over at the reddit thread, will repeat here:
From my reading of the reddit AMA - YES it seems to be bad management all over the place FROM BOTH COMPANIES - Gibson and Cakewalk.
TBH it seems this guy Henry didnt really give a crap and left Cakewalk to own devices. This guy Henry didnt give a crap period it would seem, didnt get nor know what he had bought previously ..
Surely regardless of Cakewalks bad management the buck still stopped with the parent company Gibson for NOT managing the Cakewalk progress under Gibson properly, even if that were watching the business and the Cake management and intervening to sort out any management issues.
"There is no CEO of Cakewalk. The person overseeing Cakewalk also manages Gibson Pro Audio. She means well but doesn't know anything about software and placed her faith in the most ****est of employees. "
I mean for FK sake. This WAS on GIBSONS watch and there decision. Why buy a company and then put someone who doesnt know anything about software as the Cakewalk overseer .. Jezus!!
What really P**SES me off is our Software that we loved for so long - 30 years for some of us - has been cheaply run in to the ground like this .. shear carelessness & disregard BY MANAGEMENTs. We should be very angry about this ...
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