Dysfunctional MIDI everybody is ok with

I keep saying- the MIDI is not working properly. I have Addictive drums Midi and Audio channel on 2 tracks, and Kontact Midi and Audio channel on another 2 tracks. Addictive drums receives from Controller keyboard only (not omni, not "all"- set to Novation Launchkey Ch.1). Output in to Addictive Drums, which set to Master. Kontact set to receive from Launchkey Controller and output- in Kontact which outputs to Master. Unrelated instruments. I am on the MIDI track with assigned output to Kontact but it plays Kontack and Addictive drums. I keep saying- it is leaking MIDI data in to other tracks- nobody believes me. I do not know if Kontact instrument has MIDI out in itself. I disabled MIDI out in the synth rack options. There is no reason for it to do this, but I keep hearing drums playing and it would not go away.   

I keep saying- there are a million and one bugs in Sonar that appear and disappear for no apparent reason. I used to report on the strangest mishaps that were never reproducible and seemingly only present on my system. Usually a relaunching of Sonar, harddrive defragging, clearing of caches, or simply time itself would fix them... at least temporarily. A few, however, persist.
 
Whether Sonar, my system, or a combination of so many binary instructions being processed each nanosecond, is to blame, the world will never know.

Dcumpian, thank you for the input. This is obviously what first comes in mind. Midi echo is definitely involved in to an issue but on deeper level than you describing.
 
Yes, Input echo on Kontact MIDI track was enabled. I may not understand midi echo, but to me- it has to be enabled to be able to make any sound. It is always enabled on selected track and if MIDI track assigned output to Kontact, it should trigger Kontact, and not Addictive Drums (AD). I do not go and unselect each tracks MIDI echo every time. The way Sonar used to work was that MIDI echo would get itself on when track is selected. Not sure if this function is still there.
 
You saying- "input echo was enabled on the Kontakt track while the AD track was selected."
 
No. Input echo was enabled on Kontact midi track, and Kontact midi track was selected, and it was playing sound from Kontact and AD at the same time. It was supposed to play Kontact only. How does it get an idea to play AD, and not several other plugins that were available I dont know. I also had to disable NORA arpeggiator because that thing was sending MIDI notes in to Kontact. Do not ask me why Kontact and not AD.
 
In the MIDI options on the synth rack view (what ever it is called- on the right side of the screen), there is an option saying, "Force MIDI input through..." or something in this nature. It was checked when issue was happening. So I unchecked it and it did not change anything. The input echo on each track was impossible to disable. It would only stay lit blue or lit blue with "A" on it. What does it mean, by the way? The point is- it would not let me turn echo off by pressing on it. So this is when I restarted Sonar (not computer). When it loaded back project, midi echo buttons were not active. I assume that is because I unchecked it in the options previous session that I had to restart. Conclusion: this "Force midi something" option requires Sonar restart to change its settings. When it selected, everything goes anywhere it wants. Input echo is impossible to disable. So I can say that it is reproducible- I have to try it at another time. I am not convinced that this is an issue or that it is the only issue.
 
 

Just in case any of this is useful:
http://global.novationmusic.com/support/product-downloads?product=Launchkey
 
And Presonus :
http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-24.4.2/downloads
 

Sorry edited previous post.. Probably not much use anyway but just in case..

 
 

vladasyn
Dcumpian, thank you for the input. This is obviously what first comes in mind. Midi echo is definitely involved in to an issue but on deeper level than you describing.
 
Yes, Input echo on Kontact MIDI track was enabled. I may not understand midi echo, but to me- it has to be enabled to be able to make any sound. It is always enabled on selected track and if MIDI track assigned output to Kontact, it should trigger Kontact, and not Addictive Drums (AD). I do not go and unselect each tracks MIDI echo every time. The way Sonar used to work was that MIDI echo would get itself on when track is selected. Not sure if this function is still there.
 
You saying- "input echo was enabled on the Kontakt track while the AD track was selected."
 
No. Input echo was enabled on Kontact midi track, and Kontact midi track was selected, and it was playing sound from Kontact and AD at the same time. It was supposed to play Kontact only. How does it get an idea to play AD, and not several other plugins that were available I dont know. I also had to disable NORA arpeggiator because that thing was sending MIDI notes in to Kontact. Do not ask me why Kontact and not AD.
 
In the MIDI options on the synth rack view (what ever it is called- on the right side of the screen), there is an option saying, "Force MIDI input through..." or something in this nature. It was checked when issue was happening. So I unchecked it and it did not change anything. The input echo on each track was impossible to disable. It would only stay lit blue or lit blue with "A" on it. What does it mean, by the way? The point is- it would not let me turn echo off by pressing on it. So this is when I restarted Sonar (not computer). When it loaded back project, midi echo buttons were not active. I assume that is because I unchecked it in the options previous session that I had to restart. Conclusion: this "Force midi something" option requires Sonar restart to change its settings. When it selected, everything goes anywhere it wants. Input echo is impossible to disable. So I can say that it is reproducible- I have to try it at another time. I am not convinced that this is an issue or that it is the only issue.
 
 

Then it may be one of the setting that you are enabling when you launch a new VST instance. I'll be the first to say that the dialog for this is not an easy read. Definitely isn't normal.
 
I always add new VST's directly into the synth rack, then add midi tracks that point to the VST manually. I know it can all be automated, but I want to know what's going on. Call me old-fashioned.
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

vladasynNo. Input echo was enabled on Kontact midi track, and Kontact midi track was selected, and it was playing sound from Kontact and AD at the same time. It was supposed to play Kontact only. How does it get an idea to play AD, and not several other plugins that were available I dont know. I also had to disable NORA arpeggiator because that thing was sending MIDI notes in to Kontact. Do not ask me why Kontact and not AD.

 
To clarify... If you rely on the MIDI output of one VST being fed into the MIDI input of another track, you have to toggle the MIDI track's echo button to stay permanently selected. If you don't, the MIDI will stop playing once you select another track.
 
And once again, this is the bug you most likely ran into, and is a leftover bug from when Noel mostly fixed the MIDI crosstalk bug and the crash when using more than one VST sending MIDI out. You just happened to initiate the "workaround" mentioned in that thread when you restarted Sonar.
 
Below are the steps to reproduce the issue. It should be obvious that it is incorrect behavior.
 

1. Start with a blank Sonar project.
2. Drag n Drop an instance of Jamstix. Make sure the "Enable MIDI Output" option is checked.
3. In the Jamstix wizard, click on "Create Song".
4. In Jamstix, go to Options and check the "Enable MIDI Output" option.
5. Go back to Sonar and Drag n Drop any synth, like SI-String Section or similar, making sure to select MIDI Source and First Synth Output, not Simple Instrument Track.
6. On the synth MIDI track, change the input to [your MIDI keyboard] Omni.
7. Put the synth track in record mode, start recording.
8. Record a few bars while Jamstix plays drum notes, then stop recording.
9. Notice the MIDI events from Jamstix on the synth track.
10. On the synth MIDI track, change the input to None, and then back to [your MIDI keyboard] Omni.
11. Delete the previously recorded clip on the synth track.
12. Put the synth track in record mode, start recording.
13. Record a few bars while Jamstix plays, then stop recording.
14. Notice this time that there are no longer Jamstix MIDI events recorded on the synth MIDI track.

brundlefly
In summary, this was an Output problem not an Input problem. It's possible the OP encountered some other bug I haven't seen, but I don't see how it could be the bug you've referenced, though I've confirmed that bug persists in Platinum.

Ah thanks for the clarification, I missed that detail previously. There are definitely still all sorts of weird things going on with MIDI in Sonar. It would be good if the OP can try to repro it and then log a problem report.

robert_e_boneI don't know if any of the above applies or is helpful - but this has worked for many many many years for me this way in Sonar and its predecessors.  
 
Bob Bone

Bob, I think most common MIDI workflows work in Sonar (although see for instance the linked to video of the broken dim-solo functionality).
 
But things really start going south if your MIDI source is the output of a VSTi. Apparently not many people use this feature or more people would have been complaining about it. It has been broken since at least 2005 when I first noticed this with JMT Orchestrator, and then mostly fixed in X3d, 8 years later. [Yes that was a typo, lol - fixed]. Eight years for a feature in Cakewalk/Sonar to be broken to the point of being unusable. I have old emails from CW telling me it has to be the plugins, the issue isn't in Sonar. Oh really?
 
It sounds like in your case, the MIDI source is an external MIDI keyboard (please correct me if I'm wrong), so you might not experience any of these issues.

SilkTone, 2005 till 2013 is eight years, not eighteen. Not saying it's right, of course :)

Omni can mean different things in different situations. The MIDI spec only allows for 16 channels total, which was sufficient at the time. The spec also includes "omni", which means to respond to all 16 channels, instead of just a particular channel.
 
However in today's DAWs, 16 channels are woefully inadequate. To get around this problem, the concept of MIDI "ports" was introduced. It is not part of the MIDI spec, but each "port" is a single unique MIDI spec implementation with its own 16 channels. So within that port, omni means just those 16 MIDI channels in that port.
 
So when we say "omni", it depends on the context. If you look at the input selections for a MIDI track in Sonar, we see something like "All Inputs > MIDI Omni, ch 1 to ch 16", as well as "[Your MIDI controller] > MIDI Omni, ch 1 to ch 16". Your MIDI controller is a single unique MIDI port, while a VSTi's MIDI output is another single unique MIDI port.
 
When you select "All Inputs > MIDI Omni", you have effectively selected all MIDI channels in all ports combined. This includes all MIDI output from all VSTis as well.
 
On the other hand, if you select "[Your MIDI controller] > MIDI Omni", it means only those 16 channels coming in from your MIDI controller. Similarly if you select "[Some VSTi's MIDI Output] > MIDI Omni", then you selected only the 16 MIDI channels coming out of that VSTi.
 
The long standing MIDI crosstalk bug I mentioned had to do with the MIDI output from any VSTi bleeding into the inputs of any other MIDI track while it is recording, no matter whether you selected "[Your MIDI controller] > MIDI Omni" or not. Selecting "[Your MIDI controller] > Ch. 1" for instance helped a bit since the MIDI wasn't blatantly bleeding into that track anymore, but it did keep cutting notes short on the track that was recording so it still made the whole thing unusable.
 
I have some questions for the bakers:

1. Is it really that hard to get basic MIDI routing right?
2. One would think this is fundamental in a modern DAW and should be rock solid, no?
3. Why are we still struggling to get a solid Sonar MIDI implementation in 2015?