javahut



Oh yeah... and bring back being able to show or hide all envelopes and show or hide individual envelopes... so you only have to look at the specific envelopes you want. Why they decided that wasn't useful I'll never understand. 

A simple set of move to front/back move up/down commands would solve the layered envelope issues...

Keni

"You still have to find the right envelope to edit even now... only all the envelopes are the same color... except for the one you're working on. How is that better? How does having all the other envelopes the same color make it easier to distinguish between them? It doesn't. And, you can't hide the individual envelopes you don't want to work with at the moment. They're all there... in black and white (or they're all not there, depending on the settings). How is that better?

FWIW, the lane idea is lame, too. If you have alot of automation going on, having a separate lane for each line of automation is not only ineffecient for screen space, but limits making envelope adjustments. If you show only several tracks or busses you want to work on, plus 3 to 6 or more separate lanes of automation for each track, each lane and track you want to work on would be way too small to actually make any minute automation changes without having to constantly zoom in and out to see and adjust everything.
 
I feel exactly the opposite as you, in that I think people that DON'T have very much automation like the new way. They only need to work on basically one automation parameter on one track at a time. If you used very much automation in detail you would understand how limiting the new X1 automation is.
 
The key is not automation lanes or only allowing one automation envelope at a time to be shown and worked on. The key is COLOR. All the automation envelopes need to be in COLOR to be able to distinguish one from the other. No need to basically hide them all in a sea of black & white.
 
Having alot of envelopes that overlap can be solved by simply bringing the one envelope your working on to the front whenever you click on it. That's it!!! It solves everyone's complaint of 8.5.3's overlapping problem... without hiding every other envelope's color in order to work on just one. "

 
I'm going to agree with some of the poster here in that I very often have several lines of automation and once well into a mix am often thinking of and accessing more than one set of variables at once.
I've been frustrated with automation overlap as well but have pretty much gotten past that with track zoom familiarity. (The 'some lines hidden' feature is handy too but I find it not needed typically.
I specifically use a very near white tack background and light wave images precisely to optimize clearly and access as much detail of track parameters in the smallest possible track lane.
Part of the thought process is staying on top of the identification, condition' (status) of as many options I have in place and their interactions as I am able. Wow, why would anyone not want anything but our ability to be the limiting factor?
Think of it like this; It is akin to the step backwards' if you will, loss of the multiple at once functionality when we went from mixer surface to the mouse/keyboard.
 

"Having alot of envelopes that overlap can be solved by simply bringing the one envelope your working on to the front whenever you click on it. That's it!!! It solves everyone's complaint of 8.5.3's overlapping problem... without hiding every other envelope's color in order to work on just one. "
 

"It is exactly how it works in 8.5.3 but due to a bug, it doesn't work. All Cakewalk had to do was to nuke that 'selection' bug.

I have to agree with all that you write, javahut. As a user who creates massive amounts of automation data, the drawbacks you have outlined in your posts above worry me. I'm not an X1 users yet, still waiting for the demo, but in the meantime, the picture looks bleak.

I also prefer seeing all envelopes in one track and have colour to differentiate them, and have them selectable en masse. Easy and fast. "

This is fairly disheartening and just want to add my count for 'no go for now. I figure I'll hang with 8.5 as long as I can and watch how this and a few other things pan out.

My opinion on the feature:

1. The non-editable automated parameters should retain more of their original color (or in fact have a setting in the color preferences to allow the "intensity" of darkening applied to it, this way having a "zero" darkening intensity would allow X1 to be visibly the same with 8.5). Also the tooltip SHOULD appear when you hover your mouse over a not-currently-editable automation line so that you can quickly see what parameter you are hovering over (I dont know if it has been changed but upon initial release of X1 this wasnt the case as users informed me when I asked)

2.As, mentioned, an option of "edit all" would be ideal to allow X1 to be functionally the same with 8.5 (coupled with no1)

3. Despite the "editability" of an envelope, X1 SHOULD retain the option to have any automation lines visible or hidden as the user sees fit - X1 must be the only DAW in 2011 where the automated parameters' visibility cannot be directly chosen and set by the user - DAW 2.0?

Personal observations about things mentioned in the thread:
"Bring the automated parameter above the rest" solution: that was how 8.5 was working and I really can't see how it was helping me when I had a track with volume , a plug in parameter and a send volume all automated and "0" value at a given time. You had to scroll back n forth in the project, find the desired automation line "somewhere" where it wasnt overlapped by another parameter to click on it and bring it "forward". It doesnt solve anything when you want to bring forward (select to edit) a parameter when it is "burried" by the currently being edited parameter. No reallly, think it over - its not a solution.

Lanes: I dont use them but since so many DAWs and users are accustomed to them, hey, they cant be wrong can they? So, I support this feature as long as it doesnt "replace" edit-fliter

All in all, with a couple of "smart" moves, the Bakers can really make the "edit filter" a nice, functional, helpfull feature without frustrating  users of any type of workflow.

My 2 pennies

Hi Keni, You've misunderstood. I was asking. That feature is present in Sonar 8 and I was wondering if it is also implemented in X1. :)

Not just with a mouse over but with shift and a mouse over you can see what the other envelopes are.

The Edit Filter is just what its name implies. It isolates each envelope and presents a single one to edit. Going to another envelope is as simple as hitting shift and clicking the mouse on another.

I can't see how that is so work flow inhibiting.

And each envelope is a different color too. Dark but distinguishable. 

Keni

John

This post has made me think. I would like to add something to my Edit Filter suggestions: - All Data mode that allows one to edit all data like the default behaviour of previous versions of Sonar. - All Envelopes mode that allows you to edit all Envelopes and is similar to the Envelope Mode in previous versions of Sonar. These two modes in combination to the new Edit Filter functionality should cover all bases and all differing work methods. UnderTow

I can't really argue with that. It would stop the complaining. Then, maybe not. Too many options. I can hear it now.

Yes! This would work fine for me... Tho I can believe people might complain "too many options", It could be a somewhat permanent option burred in a menu for all I care... I doubt I'd ever switch it!

Keni

There is always Garage Band for those that can't handle a real DAW.   I really don't think a company's flagship DAW should be designed for the lowest common denominator.

UnderTow

Right, hitting shift is a huge extra step. Keni some time back I was using Cubase SX 3 and for changing outs on multiple track there was no menu command as there was in Sonar. I thought how dumb then I found by hitting control while selecting an out all would change to that out. It turned out that that was quicker and I then wanted it in Sonar now as you know we have that. This goes along with the shift click to edit an envelope. It is quicker if you look at it as it is setup to prevent inadvertent selection of the wrong envelope.  As I said it could be difficult with only a click in the old Sonar. You may see this as slowing you down most I think see it as a speed up.

Yes John...

...and I'm glad for those this system works for. It's obvious that our work methods differ quite a bit...

For me, Two handed commands are a huge pain... I don't always have that second hand free nor do I want to move both (hands) when not necessay... I'm sure you'll see that as me being "lazy" or some such, but when it has to be repeated a hundred times/day it get annoying and gets in the way of my work...

I for one have rarely had a problem selecting the envelope I want (old system) and surely not often enuf for me to trade all the other (good) edit situations for those very few...

I'm not asking them to revert and remove this item which some may prefer... Only that they give us back what was working very well for so many others by some means such as a bypass or "ALL" option as has been mentioned many times...

I'm not trying to argue what's best for everyone... I'm trying to find a method of satisfying everyone!

Thanks...
Keni