ProjectM
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FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
OK, I never post a new thread for something I really like in a new Sonar... ... But that FX Chain 2.0 just blows me away! I've spent a great deal of time tonight playing with Cakwalk's selection which is pretty cool and have given me many great ideas. I've made quite a few of them for extreme special effects and I've been refurbished my old ones into new tweakable chains with buttons, rotaries and -get this - home made custom skins! (very nerdy) But kudos to Cakewalk for the FX Chain 2.0. I seriously dig them! 
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CJaysMusic
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/05 18:59:24
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Now all we need is a Bus Chain so we can see more than 2 buses
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Jonbouy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/05 19:35:14
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I thought this would be the greatest attraction Expanded had to offer. Wrong, it just could have been.
I can't see any functionality here at all except being able to pick some controls from the FX in a chain and put them on another panel and then paint the resulting panel all pretty.
The opportunity to create some real combinations of FX and control several related functions from the contained FX, and provide simultaneous adjustment from a single programmable control is totally absent.
To me, as it has been implemented here, it's just smoke reflected in a mirror rather than any added useful functionality over FX chains.
My two pence.
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LANEY
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/05 19:45:17
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Yes my favorite part of this update!!!
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backwoods
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/05 20:36:22
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When I look more closely at them I see JBoy is correct- they aren't as programmable as Reason Combinators. The combinator is the only instrument I use in Reason nowadays- to play refills. I'm too lazy to roll my own but if deeper programmability would allow interested persons to create even cooler presets that's a good thing.
Noel indictaed JBouys idea might be taken up in the future as the FXChain architecture doesn't rule it out.
Got to say though- FXChains 2.0 are a great start, I will be using them frequently.
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ProjectM
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/05 21:06:27
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Jonbouy... With al due respect, and I mean that, I'd say you're wrong. You've used combinators in Reason so you should really understand the significance of this feature. I use Reason too and can directly compare the combinator and fxchain and this reply comes from experience. The old fxchains were ok but not so intuitive. They were just great for storing fx bins. FX chain 2.0 adds a new level of control which is great. And whatever else you need you just throw in there. The enormous weakness of Reasons Combinator is that it only works with reasons internal effects which are mostly bread and butter stuff and some special effects. Compare them to the amount of VSTs out there and you have a gadzillion more possibilities. Ok so the fx chain 2.0 doesn't have macro control but in the post you refer to it might come some day. But for now we can pretty much create an easily adjustable combination of every VST out there that match our expectations down to the tiniest detail. You may dismiss it as much as you like and call it a silly commodity but the way you explain fx chain 2.0 in your first post is actually it's greatest strength. Add to that that we NEVER have had anything that even looks like the Combinator in Sonar before, this is a brutal addition. I'd say you should find somewhere to play with it or jump on the upgrade and I'm sure that you will like them just as much. When you have gotten to know them like I and many others have tonight, then we can pick up this discussion again
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Jonbouy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 05:56:37
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Jonbouy... With al due respect, and I mean that, I'd say you're wrong. You've used combinators in Reason so you should really understand the significance of this feature.
I'm not wrong, and I fully understand the significance of this feature. I don't need to own it or use it to see that unlike the Combinator it doesn't provide multi-parameter support being able to adjust several parameters on more than one effect simultaneously assigned to a single control. Yes as I've already stated or implied it is a move forward for Sonar it is fantastic that it works on VST's but in this form, again no experience needed, if you boil it down it is supplying you with the ability to put a selection of controls from the FX in your chain and put them on a panel that you can then customise the look of. Multi-parameter control as in a Combinator is what I was expecting, and from Noel's comments I gather was the original aim of Chains 2.0 in this incarnation is a disappointment enough to me to ensure that I won't be joining you in sharing with you first hand about it's use. I think it was a missed opportunity. You think it's cool, I have no problem with that. Enjoy.
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John
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 06:49:59
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Well it seems to me one would need to use them to their absolute limit before finding fault. I looked at the vid on the FX chain 2 and it was very interesting. I did begin to create my own just to see how it would work and it was very easy to get a usable setup. Its a great leap forward.
Then again one has to wonder about anyone commenting on something they can't know about and don't even have the basic product to begin with. It does seem an attempt at justifying one's decision not to upgrade to X1 in the first place. Something no one really has to do. Then again letting those that have the upgrade enjoy their upgrade without someone finding fault would seem to me the better part of politeness.
Any further comment on the subject is just more of the same.
What we have is a point of view that is sounding superior to the rest of us. We somehow don't understand that we should be upset with X1 therefore anything that CW does to improve it is a waste. We need to adopt a cynical perspective and not become "fanboys". Otherwise our credibility is going to be called into question.
I reject that and will be as much a fanboy as I want to be when CW does a good thing as I am a fault finder when they do a bad thing.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 07:03:09
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John
Well it seems to me one would need to use them to their absolute limit before finding fault. I looked at the vid on the FX chain 2 and it was very interesting.
Then again one has to wonder about anyone commenting on something they can't know about and don't even have the basic product to begin with.
 But you gleaned enough information from watching a video and (presumably) reading some product details to convince you to purchase the product. Surely that's no different from Jonbouy doing exactly the same level of research and deciding he doesn't want to buy it - right? That's all he's saying. You hadn't tried it 'hands on' before you bought it, so how did you make your decision? I fail to see why any perceived criticism of Cakewalk's products is immediately stomped on by you and your tag team buddy. Jonbouy doesn't rant and rave and he certainly isn't rude or disrespectful to our hosts - he states his views honestly and objectively. I think such discussion adds to the value of this forum, and helps to make us all aware of both the pros and cons of any product we may or may not decide to part with our money for.
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Jonbouy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 07:09:39
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What we have is a point of view that is sounding superior to the rest of us. We somehow don't understand that we should be upset with X1 therefore anything that CW does to improve it is a waste. We need to adopt a cynical perspective and not become "fanboys". Otherwise our credibility is going to be called into question. Not at all, if you read anything I'd written on the subject with which Noel wholeheartedly agreed multi-parameter functionality was a missed opportunity here. The ability to rearrange your VST's nicely and pull out the feature knobs in your chain and mount them on a pretty plate has an element of cool about it, that is a PART of the functionality of a Reason Combinator which has been using this exact concept for years and one which I am very familiar with, but the stuff that would really have cut the mustard in terms of functionality is missing. Shame. Some good things, such as being able to use it on non-propretary VST's, but the final punch just didn't turn up. I was told that this was because of a lack of development time. Perhaps it will appear in the next paid add-on. If it does (and Rewire gets 64 bit support too) and I'm in on that one. Close but no cigar. You can go back to your normal routines now folks I was just trying to appraise what was in the box. As you were, I'm off again 'til something new turns up
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/10/06 07:21:39
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 07:54:11
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ProjectM
OK, I never post a new thread for something I really like in a new Sonar...
And I bet this will be your last for a while, now that it's been taken over.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 08:01:26
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It seemed like the second dumbest idea I'd ever heard about a month ago... and now I know it is.
It seems like a way to hide more knobs and sliders so you can turn all your effects into cripple ware.
If I walked into a studio and saw that some guy had used console tape to mask out most of the confusing knobs and sliders on the effects rack I wouldn't need to read an internet review to know what I think.
best regards,
mike
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daryl1968
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 08:09:48
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And I bet this will be your last for a while, now that it's been taken over.
Ha - you're so right Bristol.
Jonbouy - I thought you were going to take the plunge and upgrade? I have to agree with you to a certain degree - I did upgrade to expanded and FX Chains 2.0, IMO, is not going to change my life but I can see myself using some of the presets for 'spot effects'. However, the Softube Saturation is excellent, the new prochannel implementation is much better and the browser is great too. Personally, i am using Sonar exclusively so I don't have the benefit of the Combinator in Reason so the $49 upgrade seams like a decent price to pay - how much is Reason these days, $399? - Jonbouy, you seem to be trying to find reasons NOT to upgrade - are you a 'glass is half empty' kind of bloke? Go for it mate - I don't think you'll regret it.
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Jonbouy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 08:28:56
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Bristol_Jonesey
ProjectM
OK, I never post a new thread for something I really like in a new Sonar...
And I bet this will be your last for a while, now that it's been taken over.
What!?!?
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gothic.angel
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 08:31:10
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SteveStrummerUK
I fail to see why any perceived criticism of Cakewalk's products is immediately stomped on by you and your tag team buddy. Jonbouy doesn't rant and rave and he certainly isn't rude or disrespectful to our hosts - he states his views honestly and objectively. I think such discussion adds to the value of this forum, and helps to make us all aware of both the pros and cons of any product we may or may not decide to part with our money for.
....just exactly..... +1 by the way... reading Jonbouy's post, which in fact is objective, I instantly and quickly learnt some expanded's features real shortage, which doesn't mean I will not upgrade at all of course, for I still find reasons to, yet it's been actually informative and useful.......
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Jonbouy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 08:36:43
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mike_mccue
It seemed like the second dumbest idea I'd ever heard about a month ago... and now I know it is.
It seems like a way to hide more knobs and sliders so you can turn all your effects into cripple ware.
If I walked into a studio and saw that some guy had used console tape to mask out most of the confusing knobs and sliders on the effects rack I wouldn't need to read an internet review to know what I think.
best regards,
mike
See, I don't agree here, there is a point to pulling out the relevant funtionality from a chain and putting it up front, albeit not too much. But the real power of this concept is to be able to control several facets of the chain from one combined functional control. For example to increase the gain on one effect whilst reducing the threshold on another simultaneously from one control is a cool thing as it opens up a plethora of possibilities, I regualarly bring chains under control in this way and have been doing it for years. I've got used to it, just not in Sonar where I do think it would be an incredible addition. I gather this was the design intention too as it was put to me there wasn't the time to implement it in this release. I don't know why I'm made to feel that my purchasing decisions that I base on functionality are up for criticism here, I like it that people are enjoying X1 and Expanded. It increases the chance of my favourite DAW maker coming up with something I do want over and above what I already have. I stayed on Reason 4 until buying into a free upgrade to version 6 actually offered something over and above what I had, nobody minded that on the Props forum, they seem to welcome the objectivity over there and some of what people actually want seems to turn up in the product eventually because of it. I'll await the updates.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/10/06 08:49:29
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 08:44:01
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Jonbouys says:
"I don't agree here, there is a point to pulling out the relevant funtionality from a chain and putting it up front"
I'll bet we can agree to disagree. :-) If it had the features that you point out are missing then my opinion would be very different. If it had all the combinator features... I'd suggest that it reminds me of SynthEdit and I'd find some personal interest and curiosity in it. all the best, mike
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mattox82
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 10:27:47
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FX Chains make sense, and the included preset are pretty rad as well. How can you not like the ability to create complex effects chains and then only see values you want to change. If you don't like it; do it the old way.
post edited by Willy Jones [Cakewalk] - 2011/10/06 11:02:23
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stevec
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 11:04:16
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If it had the features that you point out are missing then my opinion would be very different. Isn't the only thing missing (vs. Combinator) the ability to "group" controls?
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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codamedia
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 11:16:44
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I don't see myself using FX Chains 2.0 very much - but that's just my preference. At the same time - I think it's a great addition to Sonar, which many users will benefit from (maybe even myself in time). Two products come to mind? The Waves Artist Series (JJP, CLA, Kramer, etc..) and on a smaller playing field - Toontracks EZ Mix. Both of those products package a chain of effects and hide them underneath a very easy to use interface. The intent is provide a good sound very quickly, but they do so at the expense of fine detail. Your completely screwed if you need to adjust the release time on the compressor, or the "Q" on the low mids. You simply don't have access to many controls like that. Many people love these types of plugins, many do not! Enter FX Chains 2.0: Similar concept, with one glaring difference. You control what goes into it and what is visible (to control) and what is not. I am going to make an assumption (since I don't own expanded) that you still have access to that "low mid Q" if you really need to it - it just isn't on the front end panel for quick access. I suspect these new FX Chains will help the users that prefer simplicity and quick access but not others (like Mike, that prefers access to all the settings). Neither user is right or wrong with their decision to use FX Chains 2.0 or not! It's just another option to getting things done - and no doubt, could make things much faster for some users.
post edited by codamedia - 2011/10/06 11:29:43
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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e.Blue
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 11:20:08
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I was about to start this exact same thread! This is some really ground breaking stuff. The included presets are also killer and I look forward to using them in upcoming projects.
Of course Reason has the Combinators but that functionality only resides within the 'walled garden' that is Reason, no 3rd-party FX.
-e.B
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Jonbouy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 11:20:20
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stevec
If it had the features that you point out are missing then my opinion would be very different.
Isn't the only thing missing (vs. Combinator) the ability to "group" controls?
It's a big difference though. To be able to assign one control to several simultaneous functions actually creates new functionality and the chain becomes more than just the sum of it's parts. It would have been a fantastic feature in Sonar to be able to do that with our favourite VST's. btw Thanks to the moderating team for clearing out the rubbish in the thread.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 11:24:49
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codamedia
I don't see myself using FX Chains very much - but that's just my preference. At the same time - I think it's a great addition to Sonar, which many users will benefit from (maybe even myself in time).
Two products come to mind? The Waves Artist Series (JJP, CLA, Kramer, etc..) and on a smaller playing field - Toontracks EZ Mix.
Both of those products package a chain of effects and hide them underneath a very easy to use interface. The intent is provide a good sound very quickly, but they do so at the expense of fine detail. Your completely screwed if you need to adjust the release time on the compressor, or the "Q" on the low mids. You simply don't have access to many controls like that. Many people love these types of plugins, many do not!
Enter FX Chains 2.0: Similar concept, with one glaring difference. You control what goes into it and what is visible (to control) and what is not. I am going to make an assumption (since I don't own expanded) that you still have access to that "low mid Q" if you really need to it - it just isn't on the front end panel for quick access.
I suspect these new FX Chains will help the users that prefer simplicity and quick access but not others (like Mike, that prefers access to all the settings). Neither user is right or wrong with their decision to use FX Chains 2.0 or not! It's just another option to getting things done - and no doubt, could make things much faster for some users.
+1
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stevec
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 11:41:24
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It's a big difference though. To be able to assign one control to several simultaneous functions actually creates new functionality and the chain becomes more than just the sum of it's parts. It would have been a fantastic feature in Sonar to be able to do that with our favourite VST's. No argument here, I think it would be fantastic to have that ability. And I can see a lot of uses for it.. a lot. But I also think that what FX Chains 2.0 bring to the table in their current state is also a fantastic addition, at least from what I can see - I don't have Expanded yet. Codamedia's take on the subject is spot-on IMO, though I can see myself using these as soon as a I get Expanded, where I never did use the orginal FX Chains all that much. Personal preferences and all.
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daryl1968
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 12:09:55
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Is there a way that users could share their own FX 2.0 Chains easily with other users?
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michaelhanson
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 12:20:46
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Is there a way that users could share their own FX 2.0 Chains easily with other users?
I was wondering this same thing. Kind of like sharing Pod Farm custom presets.
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 12:29:31
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Is there a way that users could share their own FX 2.0 Chains easily with other users? Yes there is, see my reply to your comment in the other thread - but for those following along: the .fxc file includes all the graphics as well.
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daryl1968
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 12:33:53
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Willy Nice - thanks. I assume the ability to share depends on the 2 users owning the same FX though?
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 12:43:04
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I assume the ability to share depends on the 2 users owning the same FX though? Yes correct. You could still share it if you just really wanted your friends to see that awesome leopard-print back plate you made but they'd get a missing plugin dialog for any VST/DX effects not installed.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:FX Chain 2.0 - so cool!
2011/10/06 12:56:08
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I am going to make an assumption (since I don't own expanded) that you still have access to that "low mid Q" if you really need to it - it just isn't on the front end panel for quick access.
You are correct, double clicking on the VST module name at the bottom of the Chain UI brings up that VSTs interface for full control. Very neat.
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