GMGM
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Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
The short version is, I want to increase the resolution of my recorded automation moves. The long version is below...
I've been thinking of picking up a Tranzport fader. But I thought I'd play around with the mouse first to see if I still had the chops to do automation moves on the fly.
So I armed the record-automation, and played a vocal track, while modulating the volume control via mouse. I was pretty happy with my "performance" until I listened back - ughh!!!
I said, "What's up with that?"
Then I zoomed into the waveform and saw that Sonar had truncated all of my wonderful curvy automation envelopes so much that they were all triangles and garbage. Unusable.
Then I remembered my old Pro Tools rig had an option where I could adjust the "automation resolution". "Genius!", I said, "I'll just find that option in one of these here menus and get back to work! "
Well, fast forward a couple hours. For the life of me, I cannot find this option. I searched the forum, the user guide, and I'm not getting anywhere.
I must not be searching the correct words or phrases, because I certainly can't be the only one stumped by this question, can I?
Can you help?
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 4:11 PM
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I think your looking for the word called Nodes.. Those are what all those little dots are called.. Adjusting the resolution of those. I dont think you can..Sonar is not know for there great automation. IMO its cluttered and makes the workflow come to a stop at times.. I'm sure the new version will have automation completely redone. Cross our fingers... Plus There isnt even a tool to draw straight lines.. theres ways around it .. but not conducive to our workflow.
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GMGM
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 4:21 PM
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I truly hope that you are wrong  , and that someone else will smack you down and post the answer I want to read.  I love Sonar. I've only been on-board with it since 6.0, but I truly love it. It's the best bang for my buck. But I can't go back to the old tedious way of drawing envelopes. In fact, I won't. I've already given up my precious wave editing capability for Sonar's non-destructive yadda yadda yadda. When can we start begging for info on Sonar 9 ?
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thomasabarnes
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 4:27 PM
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eratu
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 5:12 PM
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Sonar's automation is indeed a sore spot for many users (myself included), but I'm sure Cakewalk is aware of the many requests and it will only be a matter of weeks (or a couple of months) before the standard "upgrade cycle" comes around and they announce Sonar 9 features. So hang in there -- here's to hoping that we'll know the answers to this issue soon! :)
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rbowser
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 5:24 PM
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GMGM
The short version is, I want to increase the resolution of my recorded automation moves. The long version is below...
I've been thinking of picking up a Tranzport fader. But I thought I'd play around with the mouse first to see if I still had the chops to do automation moves on the fly.
So I armed the record-automation, and played a vocal track, while modulating the volume control via mouse. I was pretty happy with my "performance" until I listened back - ughh!!!
I said, "What's up with that?"
Then I zoomed into the waveform and saw that Sonar had truncated all of my wonderful curvy automation envelopes so much that they were all triangles and garbage. Unusable.
Then I remembered my old Pro Tools rig had an option where I could adjust the "automation resolution". "Genius!", I said, "I'll just find that option in one of these here menus and get back to work! "
Well, fast forward a couple hours. For the life of me, I cannot find this option. I searched the forum, the user guide, and I'm not getting anywhere.
I must not be searching the correct words or phrases, because I certainly can't be the only one stumped by this question, can I?
Can you help?
GMGM - I record automation live and am happy with the accurate playback I get from it. If something needs tweaking, it's easy enough for me to correct the placement of a node using the Envelope Tool (as opposed to the regular Select Tool). Here's a random screen shot from my current project. Automation done in real time with mouse control - It's just what I needed. You're saying that you get an incorrect playback and a resolution not fine enough for the moves you're making--? Maybe there's something off in your work flow-?  Randy B.
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John
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 5:28 PM
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I record automation live and am happy with the accurate playback I get from it. If something needs tweaking, it's easy enough for me to correct the placement of a node using the Envelope Tool (as opposed to the regular Select Tool).
I fully agree with this and its one big reason I wont work without a CS.
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 5:44 PM
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GMGM
The short version is, I want to increase the resolution of my recorded automation moves. The long version is below...
I've been thinking of picking up a Tranzport fader. But I thought I'd play around with the mouse first to see if I still had the chops to do automation moves on the fly.
So I armed the record-automation, and played a vocal track, while modulating the volume control via mouse. I was pretty happy with my "performance" until I listened back - ughh!!!
I said, "What's up with that?"
Then I zoomed into the waveform and saw that Sonar had truncated all of my wonderful curvy automation envelopes so much that they were all triangles and garbage. Unusable.
Then I remembered my old Pro Tools rig had an option where I could adjust the "automation resolution". "Genius!", I said, "I'll just find that option in one of these here menus and get back to work! "
Well, fast forward a couple hours. For the life of me, I cannot find this option. I searched the forum, the user guide, and I'm not getting anywhere.
I must not be searching the correct words or phrases, because I certainly can't be the only one stumped by this question, can I?
Can you help?
I don't see this problem. I was curious as I usually write automation using the faders and rotaries on my MIDI controller which works well for me for both Audio and MIDI. I always end up with a faithful representation of the written automation "path" with lots of auto-generated nodes. So I tried to duplicate your concern - I created an AUDIO track, Selected Write automation, and clicked record while moving the volume fader in the Inspector view. I thought maybe I would see fewer nodes and a corresponding problem. Nope - it looked fine. I thought well maybe I am just not moving the fader enough. So I literally shook the hell out of it while recording a 3 or 4 second clip of just automation data for the volume fader - SONAR faithfully mapped what I recorded with a node created at each inflection point. Can you describe your procedure? Edit - I see Randy has already replied along the same lines. I don't have a way to post a screen shot but literally the automation trace was loaded with Nodes and even as fast as I could move the mouse, SONAR had no trouble capturing the automation - I also think you may have a work flow issue -
post edited by Brando - August 11, 10 5:49 PM
Brando
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GMGM
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 5:52 PM
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Well, I'm glad it works for you guys , but I want a finer level of control (or at least the option for say High-Medium-Low resolution). It's got to be easy enough for them to encode. Maybe even a registry key that determines the interval at which this movement is "sampled"? Sometimes, I want to write an envelope on the fly for a single syllable. Or maybe a single word in a fast moving verse. I'm still pretty fast! And dangit, if I want to cram 600 nodes into a 3 second line, I should be able to if my PC can keep up. It's 2010 now, we're in the future now ! I've been doing it the hard for a few years now, and I guess I'll begrudgingly continue doing that. And keep in mind, I've ALWAYS been a cheerleader for cake since I joined the party. I'm not trying to stir anything up here. I guess I need to go find that dang feature request form 
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GMGM
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 5:56 PM
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To Brando - Sorry I was typing away before I saw your post. I'm talking pretty much the same thing.
I mainly notice when trying to write/draw a "rounded" envelope. It reduces out the curve, and lops it into a straight line. I've tried varying speeds and techniques thinking it was my hand just not being very accurate.
But it seems (and I've counted/timed) that I'm getting roughly 1-2 nodes per second recorded. Often times I'll do a quick volume spike that gets overlooked completely and flat-lines.
If you guys are getting better results, then there must be a hidden box somewhere that lets me adjust the sampling, no?
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 6:11 PM
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GMGM
To Brando - Sorry I was typing away before I saw your post. I'm talking pretty much the same thing.
I mainly notice when trying to write/draw a "rounded" envelope. It reduces out the curve, and lops it into a straight line. I've tried varying speeds and techniques thinking it was my hand just not being very accurate.
But it seems (and I've counted/timed) that I'm getting roughly 1-2 nodes per second recorded. Often times I'll do a quick volume spike that gets overlooked completely and flat-lines.
If you guys are getting better results, then there must be a hidden box somewhere that lets me adjust the sampling, no?
I just counted around 24 nodes in less than 3 seconds on the last audio clip I recorded. If there is a limitation it is in my ability to move the mouse any faster (LOL) - Curious if it's tied to the Ticks per Quarter Note setting - Project/Clock - I am at 960 TPQN/PPQN. Edit - sorry - OPTIONS/PROJECT/CLOCK/Ticks Per Quarter note
post edited by Brando - August 11, 10 6:13 PM
Brando
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rbowser
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 6:13 PM
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GMGM
To Brando - Sorry I was typing away before I saw your post. I'm talking pretty much the same thing.
I mainly notice when trying to write/draw a "rounded" envelope. It reduces out the curve, and lops it into a straight line. I've tried varying speeds and techniques thinking it was my hand just not being very accurate.
But it seems (and I've counted/timed) that I'm getting roughly 1-2 nodes per second recorded. Often times I'll do a quick volume spike that gets overlooked completely and flat-lines.
If you guys are getting better results, then there must be a hidden box somewhere that lets me adjust the sampling, no?
GMGM - When you're working with envelopes, you right click on a line and choose between Slow or Fast curve, that's how you get the "rounded" envelope you're talking about. When you record automation live during playback, it creates slow or fast curves, depending on how you work your controller, and then of course you can always edit the results by moving nodes, right clicking to change the speed. Randy B.
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slartabartfast
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 6:21 PM
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I am not at all clear that the "nodes" in the display are in fact set at the true resolution of controller motion captured. It seems to me they are placed there for convenience in editing the curves later, rather than actually defining every sampled point. I have not done a formal analysis, but the envelopes certainly sound a lot less "jagged" than looking at the nodes would suggest. Are you saying that the nodes are the resolution?
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 6:53 PM
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Here's a screen shot of some automation i recorded - The MIDI in track 7 and the vol on the audio track in Track 1 were recorded using faders/rotaries on my MIDI controller. For Track 2 I used the mouse after Write-enabling the Vol fader in the Track Inspector. "Record 6" is about as fast as I could move the fader with the mouse.  (Hope the file host I selected works for this - took a couple of attempts to post it). Edit - here is a link to the screen shot - http://www.filefactory.com/file/b2f8d98/n/SONAR_AUTOMATION_CLIPS_EXAMPLE.jpg regards,
post edited by Brando - August 11, 10 6:56 PM
Brando
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rbowser
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 7:06 PM
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Yikes, Brando - You need to find a file sharing site that doesn't have a million pops up and doesn't force the visitor to do a download. Try Photobucket perhaps.
Randy B.
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 7:19 PM
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rbowser
Yikes, Brando - You need to find a file sharing site that doesn't have a million pops up and doesn't force the visitor to do a download. Try Photobucket perhaps.
Randy B.
Just click Preview after the link above - worked for me> EDIT - will try photobucket though
Brando
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guitartrek
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 7:44 PM
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Brando - that site froze explorer for me and then crashed it. I'm with Randy - use Photobucket or something else instead. It will display right on your post.
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Rain
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 7:52 PM
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Brando
I just counted around 24 nodes in less than 3 seconds on the last audio clip I recorded. If there is a limitation it is in my ability to move the mouse any faster (LOL) - Curious if it's tied to the Ticks per Quarter Note setting - Project/Clock - I am at 960 TPQN/PPQN.
Edit - sorry - OPTIONS/PROJECT/CLOCK/Ticks Per Quarter note
Automation in Sonar is sample accurate. It's got its good and its bad sides. Changing clock resolution won't have any effect. Might be a bit overkill for people using control surfaces when they want to fine-tune their work using the mouse afterwards. Agreed that if I were to use a control surface, I'd probably hate dealing with all those nodes and end up just recording another pass... Until I'm happy w/ it. Knobs and sliders are nice for that hands-on feel, for global adjustments or for tweakings synths and effects, but the paradigm doesn't seem to translate too well in the sample accurate environment. Not unless the good folks at Cakewalk figure out a way to give us an option to record automation on a less granular scale - like it was in the good old Pro Audio midi days. ;) I've found that I was happier working directly w/ the mouse, using combinations of slow curves and fast curves - and I got quite good at figuring out how to combine them to achieve the results I'm after just looking at them..
post edited by Rain - August 11, 10 7:56 PM
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slartabartfast
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 9:38 PM
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Automation in Sonar is sample accurate. If this is true it means that Sonar is capable of recording changes in automation recording from an input device 44.1 thousand times per second at a 44.1kHz sampling rate and makes the OP's concern about resolution ridiculous. I for one would appreciate a reference for this claim. It would also mean that the limiting factor to the OP's automation recording concern is the number of times per second that his input device (mouse or whatever) communicates with the OS, not the rate at which Sonar records the data. http://tscherwitschke.de/mouseratechecker.html My mouse seems to work fine even at a mere 1000 reports/second.
post edited by slartabartfast - August 11, 10 10:25 PM
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Rain
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 11, 10 10:52 PM
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slartabartfast
Automation in Sonar is sample accurate.
If this is true it means that Sonar is capable of recording changes in automation recording from an input device 44.1 thousand times per second at a 44.1kHz sampling rate and makes the OP's concern about resolution ridiculous. I for one would appreciate a reference for this claim. It would also mean that the limiting factor to the OP's automation recording concern is the number of times per second that his input device (mouse or whatever) communicates with the OS, not the rate at which Sonar records the data.
http://tscherwitschke.de/mouseratechecker.html
My mouse seems to work fine even at a mere 1000 reports/second.
Well it looks like what's happening to the OP to me... Don't take my word - try it - load or record a wave file, zoom to sample level, and add nodes. The smallest measurement between 2 nodes is - a single sample. So you can automate at that level. Back in the days when Sonar first came out, sample accurate automation was a selling point. The VST Standard was nowhere close to that. And Pro Audio had been using midi for most of the automation. Since Sonar is capable of such a thing as sample accuracy, I would guess that the only limitation would be coming from the physical devices you're using to record automation.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 2:17 AM
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I'm only guessing and this is propably ridicilous but....
is it theoretically possible that your video resolution (or other qualities/settings of video card) affects the automation accuracy when doing the automation, or that it could cause discrepancies between what is seemingly (based on visual) done and what actually gets recorded?
Could the quality/settings of the mouse itself have something to do with the mystery?
What puzzles me is the OP said the playback differs from what he heard during the automation write. THAT is the strange part in this, isn't it, and if the automation is sample accurate, it shouldn't be possible.
On the other hand, that you can add sample accurate nodes one by one doesn't mean they can be added with that resolution in real time, does it? Does the video card play a role in it?
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slartabartfast
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 2:37 AM
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On the other hand, that you can add sample accurate nodes one by one doesn't mean they can be added with that resolution in real time, does it? Obviously not. The fastest they can be added in real time is the rate at which they are delivered to Sonar, which would depend on how often the bus is being interrogated and the driver and hardware of the device. A "high speed" USB mouse can only manage about 1000 signals per second i.e less than one fortieth of the rate of CD quality sampling. While it is possible to process interpolated data between those discrete points no one has yet said that Sonar does this, and in practice there would seem to be no value in doing so. Any bus contention that slows down the delivery of data from the controller could presumably interfere with the maximum rate that could be delivered. I would not expect the video card to have much effect here however. More to the point, the fact that Sonar can record nodes added at sample level manually, does not mean that it is recording at the sample rate from a controller. Even given a perfectly fast device and bus, Sonar might be sampling controller data at a slower rate than audio. I take it that Rain has some information on that, and it is certainly the implication of "sample accurate automation recording." In any event the rate that Sonar uses seems fast enough.
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 10:58 AM
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Sorry for the difficulties. Just saw this and signed up for Photobucket - so hopefully I can get this to work - http://i918.photobucket.c...MATIONCLIPSEXAMPLE.jpg Track 7 is a MIDI file - recorded automation on Rapture's Filter 1 Cutoff using a rotary on my controller. Track 1 (audio) I recorded using a fader on my controller assigned to the inspector's volume fader. Track 2 I recorded using mouse movement controlling the same volume fader - For the last clip I recorded changes far quicker than I ever would practically - even there I don't see a significant deviation from what I recorded. To edit you would have to zoom in pretty far to get a usable (non-node) section of the envelope.
post edited by Brando - August 12, 10 11:03 AM
Brando
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rbowser
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 11:08 AM
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Great, thanks for switching to Photobucket, Brando. They allow the direct linking you need for posting on a Forum like this. Now for the even slicker bit - What you do is copy the URL, the one you have posted, and then as you write your message, you click the icon right above the text box here that looks like a photo. When you hover over it, it says "Insert an Image." There you paste in the URL, and it shows up directly in the message. Yes, so we can see you have good, perfectly functional automation going on in that track. Like me, you don't find it to be a problem. Thanks for the re-post.--Here it is again, using the image inserting routine described above:  Randy B.
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 11:13 AM
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thanks Randy
post edited by Brando - August 12, 10 11:16 AM
Brando
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 11:23 AM
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Looks pretty normal to me.
Obviously, the further you zoom in, the more resolution you'll see on screen and the more surgical you can get shaping your envelopes.
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Mr. Ease
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 12:36 AM
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While Rain is quite correct that envelope nodes can be edited down to individual samples the fact is that this will never happen when recording envelopes using either a mouse or a control surface. For a MIDI based control surface, the updates will depend on whether a conventional MIDI interface is being used or a USB MIDI interface. Using a USB interface (not using any conventional MIDI) should be able to outperform conventional MIDI (perhaps depending on the driver) as it is not limited to a 31.25 kHz baud rate. I have no idea if such a limit is imposed either by Windows (which I doubt) or the driver of the USB interface itself. Using a mouse again will be slower and as already mentioned will depend on the mouse set up. This only deals with timing resolution while magnitude resolution will also depend on the recording method used and what MIDI message is carrying the information. Again this will be more limited than fine editing the envelope at a later date. Having said that I see no reason why Sonar should not be recording to the best resolution that the automation method can provide. Certainly there are facilities for thinning these controllers which will inevitably reduce the resolution. While this is not direct advise for the original poster, it may give you a few clues as to what might be happening. 1. Is your method of recording automation limited in resolution - If so can you try an alternative 2. Have you got any automated thinning of controllers going on - If so disable them. These are just some thoughts but I hope they may help. BTW I do not have Sonar available at the moment to check out the controller thinning stuff - it may only be a seperate destructive process...
post edited by Mr. Ease - August 12, 10 12:42 AM
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GMGM
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 4:17 PM
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Wow guys. This is exactly what I love about this forum. Unfortunately, the wife is headed out of town tonight, so it's just me and the kids, which means I have to wait 'til tomorrow night to test/confirm any of the suggestions above.
In Brando's picture, I want to match the result he got on his Track #1 (the brown one). Since that was a control surface, maybe that's all there is to it. I just know my same old computer when running Pro Tools LE was able to get that 'fine' level of control using this same mouse.
I do have a USB/MIDI controller keyboard that I use live, which has faders. I'll plug that in & see if if there's an improvement. Otherwise, the MIDI automation (ie - pitch modulation) from my other controller (M-Audio USB Keystation) is very smooth. This problem only seems to bother me when working with audio files.
Compared to Brando's #1 example, my "pyramid" waves are straight lines (one node at the bottom, one at top). Sometimes, as in the smaller "pyramids" in his example, I'll get a straight line that runs horizaontally (no pyramids at all).
RBOWSER might have hit on it though, with the whole Slow vs Fast curve. Not sure how I would've missed something like that, so I'll have to go exploring (and at least now I have some better words to search for in the manual). I will be highly embarrassed if it is something on a simple right-click menu that I managed to miss in my frustration!!!
MR EASE - "Have you got any automated thinning of controllers going on - If so disable them." That is something I'll need to investigate tomorrow night. I'm convinced that it's a simple fix. If this was the best they could do, I'm certain they would have opted to include NO AUTOMATION.
I'm already willing to say it's a "user" error, I just want to fix it. With the feedback above, I will certainly try these suggestions and let you guys know.
DAW: SONAR Platinum PC: i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz, ASUS Motherboard, 16G RAM OS: Windows 10 Home 64-bit I/O: MOTU 8M / MOTU 8PRE / PreSonus DigimaxLT / M-Audio Oxygen 49
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8 ohm
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 12, 10 5:15 PM
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get a control surface with a motorized fader.
I get perfectly analog automation envelopes with the VS-700
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Brando
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Re:Change Resolution of Automation (Recorded evnvelopes)?
August 13, 10 11:33 AM
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GMGM
In Brando's picture, I want to match the result he got on his Track #1 (the brown one). Since that was a control surface, maybe that's all there is to it. I just know my same old computer when running Pro Tools LE was able to get that 'fine' level of control using this same mouse.
GMGM - honestly in my case I don't think it makes a difference if it's recorded via mouse or via controller - and also the MIDI controller I used is a basic M Audio keyboard with non-motorized sliders. Works fine. You might have a mouse that's set for lower resolution however which could be contributing to your problem. But I could have done the same thing using the mouse - I just over-dramatized the mouse movements to try to capture as many as I could during the recording period. Also I verified as others have said, it is not an issue with the PPQN/TPQN setting - tried setting mine way down and saw no difference in the automation envelope that was recorded. Hope this helps - good luck!
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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