Mudgel, did you see THIS POST about SteveStrummerUK's strange on/off state issues of the PC. May or may not be related to what you have been seeing.

Having the convenience to quick access of the various, oft used, functions is a good thing.
 
That is a different issue than the performance of the PC.
 
As has been described, having such in a mixing console is standard, as is I/O connections for outboard gear (fx bin).
 
The inspector has a spot where, currently, the PC is hardcoded.
 
2 ideas:
 
A:  The PC slot in the inspector could be a different implementation of the FX bin, with each of the items changeable. In pre X1 I thought the built-in EQ should be changeable.
2:  Better: since the slot in the inspector is of a particular size and shape, The PC slot should be a a standardized interface similar to the hardware 500 series modules. Instead of the PC the VC could be set as the default effects for the channel strip. This could become an industry standard for the basic VST interface, with expansion of interface when required.
 
This would make Sonar more confgurable, and desirable.
 
J 
 
 

I'd like to clarify some confusion on this thread:

The prochannel is NOT a bus. I have never said that so I'm not sure where that misinformation came from.

The prochannel is an internal effects bin that lives on both tracks and buses. It can be either or post USER effects bin depending on the pre/post setting on the prochannel strip.

Having the prochannel in their private bin allows us to independently manage them from the normal effects bin, bypass the entire prochannel, etc.

Prochannel modules are similar to VST's but are specially designed to live as modules in a small form factor inside the prochannel strip. They also have some custom functionality built in which SONAR uses to communicate with them. One example is meters which are reported by the modules.
Prochannel modules do not have any UI of their own in X1. The UI is built into the prochannel strip and tightly integrated with the rest of the SONAR functionality.

The prochannel by default consumes zero CPU because the modules are only created when you turn them on specifically.

----
There is a known bug with automation potentially turning on modules which we have fixed in X1C. The root cause of this bug as we know it is that if you ever had an envelope created for any module parameter, then seeking on the timeline (or stopping and starting playback) would activate the prochannel module that corresponds to that envelope. The most common cause of the envelopes being there in the first place is the use of automation snapshots. When you snapshot a track that has automation read enabled it will snapshot parameters for ALL prochannel modules.
After that seeking on the timeline would turn on the prochannel for those modules (only once).
This problem would also manifest on loading 8.5 projects with snapshots since they had params for the built in Sonitus eq. In this case it could turn on the prochannel using the parameters of the old EQ. Since the params do not match you would get a strange eq curve.

Both these issues have been addressed in X1C. This is the only case that we are aware of where the prochannel turns on unexpectedly.

BTW,

When I have witnessed the on -off effects it happened on projects that never, ever had any envelope on any track. No envelopes.


Hopefully, at some point, enough info can be gathered, forwarded, sent in so that Cakewalk can find out the cause of that behavior.


best regards,
mike

I have been suggesting the pro channel is ON a bus... not IS a bus. My main interest is to be able to remove Pro Channel as I would any other EFX.

 
The title of the thread suggests there is a hidden bus. There is no such thing. The prochannel is an effects bin that lives within a track or bus exactly like normal effects do.  We refer to this bin as a "channel effects bin"
 
As I explained earlier, the prochannel bin is empty until you enable a prochannel module, at which time the effect is instantiated and inserted into the channel effects bin. The controls you see on the prochannel strip for the eq, compressor and saturation modules are simply widgets that control the module parameters. Since the modules themselves have no UI the widgets are always visible in the SONAR UI and ready for use. They are connected to nothing until you enable one of the modules, by pressing the enable button, or move one of the controls which is a shortcut to auto enable it (as of X1B). There is nothing to be done to remove the prochannel if you don't ever want to use it. Just dont open the pro strip!
If you do enable a module and want to stop using it, just click the enable button for it again and it is removed from the circuit and uses no CPU. This is exactly the way the old per track eq worked so there is nothing new here in this regard. This is also exactly the way hardware consoles work.
 
 

Prochannel is AWESOME.

mike_mccue


Noel,
I have been suggesting the pro channel is ON a bus... not IS a bus.

My main interest is to be able to remove Pro Channel as I would any other EFX.

I was hoping it could be as easy as having a check box.


best regards,
mike

If you don't want it don't use it.  Since there is no CPU used when it is not in use and since it can be totally hidden there is absolutely no down side to it being there and therefore no reason to remove it.

FWIW,

 The word "hidden" is just that... a word.

 When I choose to use the word "hidden" I was thinking of the time that Noel wrote here at the forum that SONAR's effects bin sat on a bus that is not visible to the user.

 http://forum.cakewalk.com...mpage=1&print=true

Noel B says:

"In fact in SONAR's mix engine, internally everything routes through a bus, including output from track's and synths, although these buses are not user visible."

 When I choose to use the word "hidden" I was thinking of the fact I can not find the delete button to delete the bus as I may with all the buses that are not hidden.



 Hidden is not some kind of bad word that demands a deep explanation... it's a descriptive.


 



 Hi Noel, because you asked:

 I am still on the X1A hot fix something. I saw the PC turning on and off with that version. That's the version that had the problem that you fixed in 1B. So, I've been real curious to observe so many other people having what appears to be a very similar problem in the later releases. I did my complaining about PC a long while ago... now I'm just reading of others' problems while I avoid Pro Channel the best I can.

 Now that you have described how complex the implementation is... I have further interest in not being any where near it.

 I didn't start this thread to report that the on-off problem is continuing to happen.

 I started this thread to ask why I can not delete Pro Channel from my projects.


 The idea that ProChannel is basically several DSP apps kludged into a persistent GUI is easy to comprehend. That seems roughly equal to having 3 VSTs in the efx bin that leave GUIs when you delete them.

 If I deleted a EQ, Compressor, and Saturator in my EFX bin and the guis persisted it would seem unusual... and an annoyance.

  The explanation about how Pro Channel compares to a console is also easy to comprehend. From my perspective consoles have always been about the convenience and the cost effectiveness of stuffing all the functions into one (or a few) chassis with shared (or buffered) power supply systems. I grew up on consoles... consoles are effective.

 Back in 19ninetysomething I started using SONAR and have since come to the personal opinion that consoles are becoming anachronisms that will only persist in production environments that prioritize convenience over everything else. SONAR's track view taught me this through my experiences with it... and so for many years I only used a console to route inputs and monitor while ignoring the console and console format for the final mix. When I began with SONAR I planned on using a console but SONAR's track view simply did a better job and so I learned to stay ITB.

 Once I learned that I could patch up almost anything I wanted in the effects bin I grew to enjoy all that flexibility and convenience.

 A typical vocal chain for me today is EQ, 1st Compressor, 2nd Compressor, EQ, reverb and then maybe some more EQ... then I send that to a "bus". I think it's great that I can patch something like this up without even reaching for cable. It's like I am living in the future. It's fantastic!!!

 In today's day and age... the pro channel looks like part of a make believe console... and it is about as inflexible as a real console. It seems ironic that Cakewalk went to all the trouble to make SONAR seem old fashioned.



 When you describe the complexity of the implementation of Prochannel's modules I can't help but reflect upon the idea that I would have appreciated and preferred an advancement of greater routing flexibility within SONAR, the kind of stuff many users have been asking about for years, rather than a celebration of stuffing more DSPs within the existing constraints.




 
 With regards to your question about the possibility that I might be missing some hard to view envelope: I was working with brand new projects started just to test X1. I did not place a single envelope in the project at any time. I don't know how to be more clear about that.

 I found the problem within 5 minutes of launching SONAR X1 for the first time... and still wonder why no one at Cakewalk hadn't seen the problem in the previous year of development and testing.


 I can also report that I have never used a ACT function. I'll repeat that... I have never used an ACT function in my history of using SONAR. I use the SONAR and VST displays as interfaces and just work in there with my keyboard and mouse.

 

 


 Thanks very much for taking the time to review this thread.


 best regards,
mike







still editing spelling and or grammar

John T


Matter of taste, the auto plot resolution, I reckon. I like it set to auto for general use, and change it to fixed for specific tasks. I don't think either makes a "Better" default.

Me too... Tho I rarley use PC yet due to so many issues...

Keni

Jonbouy


Also, I have had plenty of occasions when I've saved templates or track templates in 8.5.3 the inbuilt Sonitus eq has a strange random plot on reloading.  If this behaviour has carried over from previous versions where random data is being applied to the new 'channel effects bin' which has been described as similar to how the 'inbuilt' Sonitus EQ 'bin' used to work although would have greater consequences since PC isn't just a mere eq then how can you replicate this condition?

It all looks OK when you save it and comes back with the random data applied.  Nothing wrong with the project when saved, nor when it is recalled, just a cranky eq curve applied, nothing to indicate how the random curve got there though.

I haven't run into this since X1b myself, but I rarely use PC due to the many issues... I'm sorry to hear that it's still plaguing you

I can see how hard it is to find anything to upload to show the problem... That was a problem for me as well... there just isn't really anything to upload?!?!

Keni