slartabartfast

Guitar Hero is a more attractive business model than Sonar on Linux.

Thanks for the links and just flicking through all of those Linux distros gave me a sore head, because you're right, it emphasises just how disjointed the whole Linux thing is.  That amount of disparity can not hope to really gain credibility and gather momentum.  Unless...   ...ok how about a few of the BIG hardware/software houses all got together and worked as a steering group in order to agree on a set of standards.   A specific distro could be developed/maintained as the new specialist OS for Audio production. 
 
Think MIDI standards ratification back in the day:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_Manufacturers_Association
 
You may indeed be correct about the attractiveness of business models, but when I see some of the leading hardware synth workstations now being built on derivatives of the Linux OS, I do ask myself why is this viable for hardware audio solutions but not for our desktop, which is what it was initially designed for?
 
I think it's an interesting debate - Serious competition would be good for Microsoft.
 
For reference:
 http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Keys-Synths-amp-Samplers/Yamaha-Motifs-run-on-Linux-what-about-Korg-Kronos/td-p/30915459

gswitz


I don't think we can talk about desktops going away until computers are so fast that Sonar no longer feels it necessary to show a progress bar when bouncing. :-)

Hey gswitz, agree with your points, but the main thrust of this thread is not so much the disappearance of the PC Desktop in hardware form, it's more about the gradual stripping away of the conventional 'Windows' Desktop within the Windows Operating System software.
 
Microsoft is pushing desktop users more towards the mobile 'tiled' environment.  We've had some good posts on here, even a response directly from Cakewalk with regards to the perceived Windows OS strategy/road map.
 
So it's highly likely that desktops and laptops will be around for a very long time in hardware form; the question is more about how the windows OS is morphing from an open, dynamic desktop with applications running within 'windows', into this 'Modern' constrained 'walled-garden' were everything is presented as 'Tiles' and applications run in fixed full-screen, unless you’re prepared to customise the Windows GUI with 3rd party Apps to make it look more like 'Old' windows. 
 
A lot of us desktop users are having difficulty getting out heads around Microsoft's vision for the future.  It may be making perfect sense, but I'm just not grasping the 'Big Picture'.  Either way, it's good to talk about.  



 

John



There is nothing here of any real substance that should concern anyone.  

Thanks for your absolute confirmation, I do hope you're correct, as of course you're also basing you opinion on assumptions right?


I guess the issue I'm struggling with is why there's a rapidly emerging market of 3rd party apps that serve no other purpose than to 'customise' the 'Modern' Windows OS in order for users to restore features and functionality that has been stripped away by Microsoft?   See, here's the rub; I still want my desktop to look like a desktop, not a tablet. Perhaps there's some happy middle ground to be reached here.  Perhaps there's some customisations that Microsoft can bake into their OS to give the user a degree of choice in how their Desktop PC looks?  Sound reasonable? 


Could it be possible that through talking about this in open forum, we will help to provide enough feedback to Microsoft, so that they can build an accurate picture about what their users need and want?


Just to be clear, I'm not trying to attack microsoft here.  I've certainly invested heavily in their products over the years and continue to do so.  I like Microsoft.  The same applies for Cakewalk.  My intention is stay as an ongoing customer as long as the products serve my purposes, that's where my concerns begin.


It's good to talk as they say and I appreciate your reply.

Which certainly leads to an important point; there is surely a big gap in the market for a custom made OS purely designed for Multi-media purposes that can be used as the bedrock on which to build a DAW platform (amongst other purposes).

I agree that it would be great...
Unfortunately, there's just not enough "audio" end-users to support the development of such a niche' OS.
BeOS was a great example of this...


We (as audio users) are a tiny segment of the overall PC market.

here's the bench test results recorded last year on sonar x1 using windows 8:
http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applications/#more-8777

and here is a little piece of that article,

SONAR CPU load at low latency

SONAR CPU gains were observed when using Windows 8 for Low latency performance tests. These gains mean you can run bigger loads in Win8 at low latency without audio glitching.
low latency plugins… 15.5% CPU reduction
input monitoring… 8% CPU reduction
high track count… 23% CPU reduction
High bandwidth audio …6.2% CPU reduction 

SONAR multi-core CPU load balancing at low latency

Workloads for cores are more evenly balanced at low latencies on Windows 8. Better balanced core workloads translate to more efficient use of multiple CPU core hardware and thereby better workload scaling for large projects.
low latency plugins… 23% improvement
input monitoring… 31.7% improvement
high track count… 30.6% improvement
High bandwidth audio …17.5% improvement 

Memory usage

A 7.9% reduction in memory use under Win8 was observed when loading a large real world SONAR project (Cori Yarkin project from SONAR sample content) under identical system configuration. Reduced memory load can be observed in most of the tests.

Disk Performance

A 78% improvement under Win8 was observed in disk read/write performance while reading large buffer sizes. Improvements were more moderate at smaller buffer sizes. 

System calls per second

An 85% reduction in system calls was observed under Windows 8 in the input monitoring case and more moderate gains in the other cases. Fewer system calls translate to improved CPU load as well as fewer user mode to kernel transitions which mean fewer audio glitches. 

Kernel use

25 – 50% reduction in kernel use can be observed in some of the tests with Win8. Lower kernel use results in fewer audio glitches since it leaves more headroom for audio drivers.

Conclusion

All the tests above were done running the current shipping version of SONAR X1 with no special Win8 tweaks. The tests ran very smoothly with no problems noted under Win8 using SONAR X1. In fact you could push the system harder under Win8 without getting glitches in audio as compared to Win7. The tests show that despite the controversial changes to Windows, there are some significant benefits even for standard Windows desktop apps running Windows 8. This is great news for existing Windows 7 users who are considering an upgrade to Windows 8.
 
 
 
now this isn't like a pretty decent improvement, this is huge.

My posts is based on using and studying MS's OSs going back to the DOS days.  
Yep I hear ya - that probably goes for most of us here! 

I find it weird that you should be struggling with anything when all the information is fully available to you. Nor do I understand your requirement that MS provide the old start menu for you. You make it sound as if MS can't change their OS to make it better for more than just desktops. 
But, that's just the point, all the information is not fully available to me.  Hence, the discussion here.  I only had it confirmed though this thread that 'Windows desktop UI will likely go away completely soon', that's a partial quote from Cakewalk within this very thread - I didn't know that, the topic is certainly being discussed out on the web with great fervour!  And frankly I'm alarmed that the desktop UI will likely go because I like the Windows desktop UI and I'm fairy sure that it played some part in Microsoft naming the OS 'Windows', It's kind of 'Windows' by design isn't it? 

You project into the future about what could happen when there is really no way to know what the future will bring. We can be sure that the need for the sort of app that CW develops is not going to disappear. Mobile apps as such will find a place but this does not mean the sort of app pros need and use will be rare.
Yeah, absolutely, we all project in to the future and discuss, ponder, etc it's natural and perfectly OK to talk about this stuff, no NDAs being broken here.  I've personally got quite a lot of good info from this thread, that's why I started the initial discussion.  I say 'brilliant' the forum works. 

I look at the situation with MS not including a start menu as givening me more control.  I can now choose just how I want my system to startup and what screen I want to show first.  I now have the ability to use third party add ons that will customize my desktop just the way I like it. 
OK but when I need to go and find a 3rd party app just so that I can run my other apps within a window in an operating system called 'Windows', Mmmm I'm not so sure this could be construed as giving me more control at all.   But look we're not at that point yet, remember windows 8 still has a desktop UI, future versions will likely not have; that's when it'll get interesting. 

I'm no longer stuck with what MS offered if I choose to use those add ons. Its no different than its always been really.  We have always had the ability to use all sorts of third party add ons as well as tweaking the OS itself. 
It WILL be different though...lol   It would appear that future versions of Modern Windows will no longer have a Desktop UI in which to run certain apps in a windowed mode and serve as an open 'windowed' desktop environment. 

As to this tread getting back to MS so they know what the members are posting, that seems a bit hopeful with no possibility of MS caring one wit what is said here. This is a forum about Sonar not about the OS. 
Cakewalk are Microsoft partners and cakewalk have directly responded within this thread, the feedback on key topics will get back to Microsoft one way or another. Do you think that cakewalk don't speak with Microsoft? It would be very remiss of Cakewalk not to ensure that Microsoft are made aware of the user feedback on key topics at their various progress/technical meetings?  Cakewalk are 100% dependent on Microsoft to get it right or it may start to impact their business also.

What I would really like to do is put your mind at ease that you wont be forced to adopt anything you don't wish to. Nor will Sonar go away anytime soon. You can work with Windows 8 just as you have with past MS OSs. 
The response by Cakewalk within this thread has done a lot to reassure me of the continuity of their product in relation to running it within the current and future MS Windows environments, in whatever shape or form that it may develop.  So yeah Cakewalk will Function, of that I'm 100% certain.  But if windows on the Desktop develops in such a way that it gives desktop users a compelling reason to explore other operating systems then guess what, Cakewalk also start losing some of it's clients, so I'm sure you'll agree, there's a little bit of vested interest here to make sure Microsoft understand the challenges ahead.  Especially when your product solely dependents on Microsoft's road-map.

+1 
I see Win 8 as a major transition for Microsoft - like Windows 95. Integrated touch and mobile support built in to the core OS is a huge leap that prepares them for the future. The bottom line is the problems that people are getting so strung up about are the weaknesses with the UI integration of the modern UI vs desktop where you are forced to use one or the other. It looks like they are working on improving that in the next version and I expect it will get better in the next OS release.
As anyone knows in the software industry there is no such thing as a perfect release where everyone will unanimously love it. It gets even worse when you change the core user interface. SONAR X1 anyone? :-) Whether its better or worse there will always be a percentage of people who hate it. I'm sure they shipped Win 8 expecting controversy - they aren't that stupid. 

To innovate sometimes you have to be willing to make mistakes. And as Jim says MS is in the enviable position of having  deep pockets. I'm sure they could withstand a few lackluster OS releases without even blinking too much. Apple is in the same situation. I wouldn't worry too much. Whats the worst that could happen - they take out the desktop UI? So what - some creative company will seize the opportunity and add it back :) Remember when you couldn't get ISA slots anymore - what happened to all the studios running ProTools rig's which needed ISA? There were companies that MAGMA that sold ISA farms! Technology only gets obsolete when there is no demand for it. As long as there is a real need there will be options...

Jim Roseberry

There are a lot of people making music on iPads these days.

You can tinker with your iPad... but you can't do a full-bore recording/mix with top-notch processing/mixing.
Not to mention video editing (which makes audio loads look puny)...


Doom and gloom for Windows???
I wouldn't bet on it.
You're talking about a company with DEEP pockets... that has amazing market share... of machines that conduct most of the world's business.


Love 'em or hate 'em... Microsoft will likely outlast all of us...

Paul P


If portability is the main thing pushing current development and you combine that with cloud computing,then maybe Microsoft has decided that it'll cater to the 99% of users and the other 1% (for example heavy daw users) be damned.

What would Microsoft care if audio professionals could no longer do their jobs ?

We currently use Windows because that's what Sonar comes on, but if it were to use Unix I'd be more than happy to switch to that.

I can always surf the net on a cheap windows device.

These are all excellent points.  The first one especially, because the business sense of it trumps most everything else.  I don't think that using audio on a future Microsoft OS will not be possible.  But it might not be in the guise we are used to now, for better or worse.


Btw, I played around with some multi-track recording apps on my iPad.  They are pretty impressive and, given that I consider these early days for that sort of thing, not at all a bad start in DAW alternatives.  I'm still strongly bound to my desktop PC and Windows and Sonar, and will be for a while yet for a number of reasons, but I agree with a previous poster's sentiment that "anything can happen and who knows what it'll be".


Perhaps Sonar will morph into an "app" that can run on any kind of tablet, laptop or PC.  Or maybe some other company will get there first and do that.  All sorts of possibilities which we may or may not like...


One thing for certain for me is that Windows 8 seems very much at odds with itself and I think they could have, and should have done a better job.  Much like the criticism leveled at Windows ME and Vista.  Nevertheless, I run Windows 8 for my home studio and I'm coping with its idiosyncrasies.  At work, I use a Mac with bootcamp for Windows (I must say I like the Mac touchpad as being one of the best, just as an aside).

Noel : "It can today - get a Surface Pro :) "

Run Sonar on 10" screen ? That to me is a pretty bizarre idea.

I can see the use of Surface for a touch controller but not more than that.

I like to see several pieces of virtual equipment (in their entirety) at once on a large screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pouEAMNfUcY

This guy sort of sums it up and the comments section did make me chuckle.

Not because I want MS to fail, but because they're just not listening.

OK, I think this has been a good, worthwhile discussion and I've learned a few new things from it.

I just wish I wasn't being forced into the awkward predicament of 'loving' Sonar X2 and 'disliking' Windows 8, cause they're pretty intimate bedfellows.

This is my last post in this thread, but wanted to thank you all for the great participation and stimulating debate.

See you all in other interesting threads concerning things that we probably can control...lol

I recognise the signs when enough is enough...which was probably a few posts ago...lol

Cakewalk, keep up the great work and try and get MS to see at least 'some' sense ok?

Peace out!

Bill

but when I see some of the leading hardware synth workstations now being built on derivatives of the Linux OS, I do ask myself why is this viable for hardware audio solutions but not for our desktop, which is what it was initially designed for?

That goes back to your problem about who supports Linux. If you are loading your own version of Linux into the firmware of your synth, you can be pretty sure that it will be what you expect. Linux is part of the firmware here, and you can control the code completely. It just saves a lot of coding to use an extant OS, and saves a lot of money to put generic computer parts that are known to work with that OS in the box.


Given enough incentive, a pro audio developer could do something pretty similar: i.e. ship a DVD that would install their own tested version of Linux as a dual boot on a windows machine to run their workstation. But then every plugin developer would have to decide that they needed to recode for linux and so on. 


A consortium of audio developers supporting a linux distro makes a lot of sense, but the up front costs for all of the developers, and the upgrade (crossgrade) costs for all of the users would be immense.


Still if windows becomes so consumer device oriented that it fails as an audio host, linux makes a lot of sense. Linux is already eating Windows lunch in network serving, and is moving up as a platform for desktop use in business. Nonetheless, I expect we will see MS Office ported to Linux sometime during the third ice age in hell.

Noel Borthwick:  
I mixed an entire set of live recordings once on a long plane ride with just a laptop. How different is that from using something like the surface which is even more portable. We need to make some more tweaks to SONARs UI to allow it to work better on a smaller display, but its not that far off.

Very much looking forward to working more that way!  I see my home studio, complete with its big screen and powerful specs as being my mainstay, but there are so many times when I am away that I'd like to use my spare time to continue working on a more portable device that I have at hand.

A cloud-based interface for seamlessly syncing the audio data and project files would be ideal in this scenario, but we're probably some time away from that reality (and practicality).

Jim Roseberry

I just posted a link on another thread just yesterday about benchmark tests done using sonar and widows 8 the tests don't lie, sonar x2 uses less resources on windows 8.

I like Win8x64 just fine...   
And this isn't intended to be argumentative...
But I can tell you from much experience (and numerous other well-respected DAW builders agree), that X2 doesn't see major performance gains under Win8 vs. Win7.
We've compared side-by-side.
Across numerous current-generation builds, X2 performance is nearly identical under both Win7 and Win8.

I've always respected your opinion Jim, will continue too as well.  :)
sometimes people don't always agree, that's okay, ive learned a lot from your posts.
that's all that really matters.
 
peace man  :)

Well, scientifically speaking maybe 100ms is the best we can ask for for light, but the good news is, your local Cloud will be within 200-300 miles from where you're at or the latency-sensitive part of your setup will stay local to you.

And the bad news is that communication must be 2-way (double the latency) and the handshaking protocols, and inevitable transmission/repeater delays will introduce much more latency than the absolute limit imposed by the speed of light. In the box only has to communicate between memory and CPU in the box.

... windows 8 is indeed faster than windows 8, I think anyone here how has used it successfully will agree.

 
I'm not so sure... I think Windows 8 is faster. Just my opinion, though.