Grem
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 15:00:02
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Mystic38
Yesterday would have been a better day to resurrect a zombie thread........
I had a good laugh on this one!!
Grem
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joden
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 15:10:38
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Grem
And in my opinion, in regards to Sonar not playing Midi info "musically," is something perhaps, "subjective."
One can only agree with this comment. Certainly so, based on the evidence (or lack of it rather) shown so far.
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brundlefly
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 15:18:35
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Grem
Mystic38
Yesterday would have been a better day to resurrect a zombie thread........
I had a good laugh on this one!!
 I agree, but have to say, I'm kind of glad to see it come back to life (undead?) so we can put it to bed properly (to mix metaphors) all after all the mental energy already expended. Or, as my old boss, might have put it: "Let's get this baby into the end zone, and put a fork in it".
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Jeff Evans
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 16:26:14
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I am getting alomst a complete null all the way through. The fact that the kick or clap can only be completely nulled with minute differences in level from of the tracks only shows there were tiny differences in level with various parts of the drum kit from that VST in one program or another.
If there were really timing differences you would be hearing loud bits within the null at random times and that is not happening here for me anyway. So I would guess that timing wise both of those programs generated exactly the same timing and one is not different from the other.
But I still stand by my observations though that Sonar and Studio One definitley handle midi timing differently when it comes to external instruments though. Especially when under audio load. Studio One midi timing sounds better while the audio side of the program is under pressure. It is one of the main reasons I use it. It is like the midi is separate from the audio and the timing remains tight and also never alters what was played in no matter what is going on elsewhere. (I don't quantise midi data all that much, I prefer to play stuff in with feel and not want it changed on playback)
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Grem
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 16:38:36
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brundlefly
...I'm kind of glad to see it come back to life (undead?) so we can put it to bed properly (to mix metaphors) all after all the mental energy already expended.
Or, as my old boss, might have put it: "Let's get this baby into the end zone, and put a fork in it".
Yes I agree here. Good play on words too! Jeff Evans
If there were really timing differences you would be hearing loud bits within the null at random times and that is not happening here for me anyway.
I'm getting the same here. And have drawn the same conclusions. Jeff Evans
But I still stand by my observations though that Sonar and Studio One definitley handle midi timing differently when it comes to external instruments though. Especially when under audio load. Studio One midi timing sounds better while the audio side of the program is under pressure. It is one of the main reasons I use it. It is like the midi is separate from the audio and the timing remains tight and also never alters what was played in no matter what is going on elsewhere. (I don't quantise midi data all that much, I prefer to play stuff in with feel and not want it changed on playback)
You may have point right there Jeff. I haven't come across this, yet. But as I get my wife to play more keyboards/piano for me I may notice. I will keep this in mind though.
Grem
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sharke
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 16:53:08
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I had a listen. I didn't notice any difference in timing or feel between the two at all. I set each track to mono and panned them hard left and right, then put a HPF on the result to isolate the hats - listening on headphones they sounded very focused and right in the middle of my head. Surely if there were timing differences the image would sound a little smeared?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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brundlefly
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 17:02:23
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Jeff Evans
But I still stand by my observations though that Sonar and Studio One definitley handle midi timing differently when it comes to external instruments though. Especially when under audio load. Studio One midi timing sounds better while the audio side of the program is under pressure.
Déjà vu all over again... http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2230884 Where's the beef? 
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Jeff Evans
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 17:31:28
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What it does show though is there are no differences in terms of midi files and feel when it comes to internal VST's which is what many of you are running. What I am doing is running quite a large external setup and there are differences there, no doubt. I also run internal VST's too so it is good to know that these programs are handling the internal VST stuff the same. They do not handle external midi timing the same way though. It could also be and I suspect this that the way I have my midi interface connected to a serial port and there is nothing on that port apart from the midi interface. (My interface has 8 midi ports and I only have 5 powerful external instruments and they all have a whole port to themselves. And although I could get each port doing 16 things at once I tend to only get each instrument to only do one thing at once meaning we are dealing with a latency of 1ms or so per synth. Actually way better than a lot of audio latencies with VST's. The hardware instruments still have latency as well internally but it is very fast as in case of my Kurzweil for instance and it is consistent so I can slide external midi tracks back by the total latency amount to bring them all perfectly into line timing wise) Sounds like Studio One has a clear and direct path to the serial port and it is always the same no matter what is happening over the USB buss or the PCI buss as well. It might be an older way of doing but it is certainly a very good way. I can hear it easily. BTW Sonar does not handle external midi timing as well even with the same interface on the serial port. I must also say though that these differences are very small and extremely subtle. Some may not even notice them but a drummer with a strong sense of time and feel however will feel it.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/11/01 18:03:02
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Grem
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 17:56:06
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brundlefly
Where's the beef?
I remember that thread. I'm saying that Jeff has more of a chance to have timing issues than the OP.
Grem
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Grem
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 18:07:30
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Jeff Evans
It could also be and I suspect this that the way I have my midi interface connected to a serial port
Jeff I looked at my home computer that is over 6 yrs old. It has no Serial port. I do not have a serial port on my music pc. If I am not mistaken, isn't serial port technology before ISA? And ISA was left in the dust long ago. Maybe Windows is handling this older technology differently? Wouldn't Fire Wire be a better choice. Maybe a new motherboard might help? Just asking some questions and trying to understand. I went to the first Pre****sphere and heard some stuff about S1. It was built from the ground up with what you are talking about. No/very low latency. Is there a way that you could provide a test as the OP did so that we could see?
Grem
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Kewl Hendagang
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 18:17:55
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We're not even in the timing issues anymore. Something else is happening in Sonar, in the way rythmic elements are rendered -
Hopefully someone with decent ears and feel @ cakewalk will take this seriously?
It's only happening in Cubase (pre-7 version) and in Sonar.
And yes, there is something odd happening. for us the more we dug, the less it had to do with timing, and the more it had
to do with the way sonar renders mixed transients.
There's almost some kind of weird transient priority/cuting/clipping going on in S1 or other daws, that make drum work
much more effortless.
If you guys can hear it, more power to you.
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sharke
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 18:39:37
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Kewl Hendagang
We're not even in the timing issues anymore. Something else is happening in Sonar, in the way rythmic elements are rendered -
Hopefully someone with decent ears and feel @ cakewalk will take this seriously?
It's only happening in Cubase (pre-7 version) and in Sonar.
And yes, there is something odd happening. for us the more we dug, the less it had to do with timing, and the more it had
to do with the way sonar renders mixed transients.
There's almost some kind of weird transient priority/cuting/clipping going on in S1 or other daws, that make drum work
much more effortless.
If you guys can hear it, more power to you.
I doubt you're going to get anywhere by suggesting that people who can't "hear it" don't have decent ears. And if this "weird transient priority/cutting/clipping" that you say you can hear really is happening, then it's nothing you can't process within Sonar by other means, i.e. if that's what you want. But to suggest that a DAW should impart some kind of subjective "feel" into rhythmic elements is ridiculous IMO.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Grem
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/01 18:42:45
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Kewl Hendagang
Hopefully someone with decent ears and feel @ cakewalk will take this seriously?
It's only happening in Cubase (pre-7 version) and in Sonar.
I don't have golden ears. But I do have feel. And I took this seriously enough to give of my time to try and see what you were trying to say/explain. And I just don't see it your way. Did a drummer play what we heard? Or was it a beat tapped into the track?
Grem
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Kewl Hendagang
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 07:34:35
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sharke
I doubt you're going to get anywhere by suggesting that people who can't "hear it" don't have decent ears.
And if this "weird transient priority/cutting/clipping" that you say you can hear really is happening, then it's nothing you can't process within Sonar by other means, i.e. if that's what you want.
But to suggest that a DAW should impart some kind of subjective "feel" into rhythmic elements is ridiculous IMO.
Well we can debate about that for days, but if we simply stick to the facts, the files don't null. In my test file, lowering sonar's playback at -.2 db nulls the claps, at -.3 it nulls the snare and kick. So with EXACTLY the same ingredients (same midi tracks, same VST, same sample kit), Sonar sounds one way, the other daws sound another way. So instead of arguing about better or worse wich seems to be pointless, can someone tip in on the why does it sound different?
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Kewl Hendagang
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 07:40:00
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Grem
Kewl Hendagang
Hopefully someone with decent ears and feel @ cakewalk will take this seriously?
It's only happening in Cubase (pre-7 version) and in Sonar.
I don't have golden ears.
But I do have feel. And I took this seriously enough to give of my time to try and see what you were trying to say/explain.
And I just don't see it your way.
Did a drummer play what we heard? Or was it a beat tapped into the track?
A pretty well established drummer/programmer did the drum playing/programming in Logic. He's was the one to first tell us something sounded odd when the files came out of my sonar rig - The first thing he said after I sent him back the audio was ''did you move my snare earlier in time?''
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John
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 08:06:25
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I listened to the files using Sonar X3c Pro. I used exclusive solo and kept switching back and forth repeatedly and could not hear any difference in timing. Sorry.
I will not say that my casual listening is in anyway definitive. But nothing stood out as being out of time.
Perhaps that was not what you were asking about.
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Kewl Hendagang
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 08:15:02
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John
I listened to the files using Sonar X3c Pro. I used exclusive solo and kept switching back and forth repeatedly and could not hear any difference in timing. Sorry.
I will not say that my casual listening is in anyway definitive. But nothing stood out as being out of time.
Perhaps that was not what you were asking about.
Hey John, The issue seems to not be about timing anymore - there something (yes it's minimal) going on that is more of a subbtle sound difference, but as minimal as it is it plays on the groove perception of a few ears here. not all... just a few, but they are the ones that I trust the most. So it's enough for me to try and get an answer, as I hear it too. It's almost like the sonar rendition carries more ''mids'' in the snare and hats. it ''cuts through'' more in the mix. wether or not this is a good thing is irrelevant at this point. FYI it's much more apparent when listening with headphones
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Peter Morrison
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 08:17:21
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What a brilliant subject matter and thread. Some great answers in there. I don't think Kewl got his answers, but he has a lot to work on. Hope you find the answer to your "Why" Kewl.
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Kewl Hendagang
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 08:20:44
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a second FYI : more or less mids/top end on percussions/drum elements WILL play on the perception of groove...
so if it's a sound difference, it still CAN be felt as a timing difference although there seem to be none when looking at the
waveform
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John
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 08:37:07
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I am of the impression that there is a sonic difference but am very unsure of that notion.
If there was any processing in either DAW that may account for it. This could be as basic as what pan law was used.
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Kewl Hendagang
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Re: The way Sonar plays back midi sequences
2013/11/02 09:13:07
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John
I am of the impression that there is a sonic difference but am very unsure of that notion.
If there was any processing in either DAW that may account for it. This could be as basic as what pan law was used.
No processing whatsoever, both instances of Native Instrument's Battery in both DAW's were routed out to the sound card main outputs, bypassing even the bussmaster. Pan laws were the same (0 sides, -3db center) + it was a stereo instance of Battery loaded on a stereo track. Yep, there is a subbtle sonic difference!
post edited by Kewl Hendagang - 2013/11/02 10:47:00
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