Crashes When using Sonar x2a

Sonar Crashes
 
Hello.  Sorry in advance for the long post.  I am running Sonar X2a (64 bit) in Win 7 SP1 x64.  For a year now (since buying Sonar X2 summer '13) I have been having a problem with intermittent computer crashes when using Sonar.
 
The Crashes.  Intermittently, when I use Sonar, the computer will freeze up – the graphic display freezes, and the computer no longer responses to mouse or keyboard activity.  The computer will not respond to Ctrl-Alt-Delete.  To regain control of the computer, I must hold the power button to hard-stop the computer, and then re-start it.  Because these crashes bring down the OS, there is no error log recorded; WhatIsHang records no problems.  I can sort of reliably cause a crash problem by starting the computer, launching Sonar, load up a project, and then walk away from the computer.  When I return to the computer after 60 minutes or so, typically the computer is crashed/frozen.  So I get crashes/freezing just simply by having Sonar up and running on the computer; I don't even have to interact with Sonar to get crashes/freezing.  I also get crashes/freezing when recording, playing back, and editing audio or midi data, and while doing other work in Sonar.
 
Additionally, I also have occasional brief static bursts when using Sonar.  Sometimes, when starting playback of a project for the first time after loading it in Sonar, I get a brief (very brief: 10 ms) burst of soft white noise.  I do not get static during playback of audio; only when I first start playback, and typically only the first time I start playback at the start of the project.  The other day, I got a similar static burst after double clicking an audio clip to launch the Loop Construction view.  Sometimes, I get a static burst after applying a change in the Edit – Preferences menu.
 
The crashing/freezing problem sounds like a computer hardware problem, and I have done a good deal of trouble-shooting to try and figure out what is causing this (see below).  Over the past couple of months, I have been running Cuckos Reaper  - I thought I would try Reaper because the demo version has all the functions of the full version, and the demo allows 60 days to try it out – a good long test period.  During the past 45-50 days I have been testing Reaper, I have experienced 5 crashes/freezes while running Sonar, and zero crashes/freezing when running Reaper (what I do is use Sonar on one day and Reaper the next – alternating).  So, same computer, same hardware, same midi and audio interface, same set of drivers, and crashes when using Sonar and no crashes when using Reaper.  This tells me that the computer and the hardware and drivers all work fine, and Sonar is the cause of the crashes.  Indeed, the computer runs fine without any crashes so long as I am not using Sonar.  The crashes/freezes ONLY occur when using Sonar.   So far, I have heard no static bursts when using Reaper.
 
I am hoping you can help me make Sonar run more reliably with no crashes/freezing.  Any ideas?
 
What I have done to try to resolve this:

1. Updated Sonar X2 with the latest update
   
2. Updated Win 7 with latest patches/updates
   
3. Updated drivers for audio and midi interfaces to the latest drivers available
   
4. Updated the bios to the latest version.
   
5. Updated all MOBO drivers to the latest version
   
6. Re-built the entire software environment by formatting all HDs, re-installing the OS and re-installing programs (making sure each installer was “run as Administrator”).
   
7. Put in a new Siig DP FW card (with TI XIO2200AZGW chipset)
   
8. Ran MemTest+86 (ver. 5.01) for two complete cycles.  Zero errors were reported.  (Note also that this process took 4+ hours, and the computer did not crash during this time.)
   
9. Because intermittent computer crashes are commonly caused by memory problems, I also swapped out my memory modules.  My computer has two memory modules, and I got the same crashing/freezing behavior using both memory modules and with any one of the memory modules.
   
10. Monitoring CPU and MOBO temperatures: the CPU temperatures stays round 36-37oC – well within normal operating tolerances; the MOBO temperatures are a little cooler, and also well within normal operating tolerances.
     
    

The Computer
 
I built the DAW specifically to run Win 7 and Sonar X2.  The computer has no other functions, and is not online or networked.  The specs are as follows:
 
Processor – Intel i5 3570 quad core @ 3.40 gHz (normal clock – NOT overclocked)
MOBO – ASUS P8Z77-VLX w/ Intel Northbridge Z77 Express chipset
Memeory - 2 x Corsair Vengence CMZ16GX3M2A1600C10B (2 modules of 8 GB apiece: total 16 GB), DDR3 Power - Corsair CMPSU-750TXV2, 750 watts Firewire – Siig DP FireWire 2-port PCIe card
Drives - Seagate ST500DM002 Barracuda 500 GB, SATA 7200 rpm HDs OS - Win 7 Home Premium 64 bit, SP-1 Cakewalk - Sonar X2a (I believe I have all Sonar X2 updates installed)
Audio Interface – Mackie Onyx 1604 w/ firewire card installed (driver ver. 1.7 installed – is the only driver version Mackie makes for this device and this OS)
MIDI Interface – MOTU Micro Express USB midi interface (Motu “universal” driver installed – is the only driver version Motu makes for this device and this OS).
 
Note: this computer has no VGA card. All graphic functions are handled by the CPU itself.
  
Thanks for your help.

Hello.  Thanks for your reply.
 
The crashes bring down the OS entirely - hence the Win Event log never records any thing about these crashes.
 
I have sent an email to the CW Tech Support team, but the online form only allows some many characters so I can't include all the details for them that I included here.
 
Because the audio computer is not online, I have not installed any third-party anti-virus software on the computer.
 
I will follow-up with the links and suggestions you provided. 
 
 

Hello.  Let us be accurate: there is NO problem with the computer hardware, drivers, or OS when using Reaper, Sound Forge, NI Komplete (in stand-alone mode), or any of the other audio software I use.
 
The ONLY problem with the computer hardware, drivers, or OS is when Sonar is running.
 
So the problem may well be with Sonar's interaction with the computer's hardware, drivers, or OS.  But the computer hardware, drivers, OS, all work just fine when using software other than Sonar. 

Couple of thoughts:
 
1.  IF you have the Windows Default Audio Device set to point to your ASIO drivers of your audio interface, you may be experiencing a driver conflict, as ASIO can wig out when more than one application goes after it - even the playing of Windows sounds, like when applications start and that sort of thing, can cause this conflict.  Lots of folks also run with Windows sounds turned off, so that they don't come blaring through the speakers, as far as I am aware.  So, if you DO have Windows set to point to your interface, try changing that back to point so speakers for a test - even if you don't at the moment have PC speakers available and hooked up, this is just to eliminate that sort of conflict as part of the evaluation of the issues.
 
2.  After the above, you might consider another test - just trying to get Sonar up and running without your audio interface present - again, just to rule it out.  So, with your computer shut down, physically remove the interface card from the computer, then start it up and try going into Sonar.  Of course, Sonar will complain about the lack of the interface being present, but that's OK - we just want to get Sonar up and running.  So, please try this test and post back the results.
 
I have to run a quick errand, and will look at this in more depth when I return in about an hour.
 
Bob Bone
 
 

Bob has a good point with (1). Point it away from the interface you use with Sonar if you can even if it is set to no sounds.

In regards to point (2) it's only for testing purposes. If you can do without for a while then great..

When googling for solutions I see this is the second byte of the cherry:
http://forum.cakewalk.com...aspx?m=3127060&p=1


Did you ever try another display adapter?

Cheers..

Hello Alex.  Yes, over the past year and a half, I have written about this problem a couple of times, tried many different fixes, all without resolving the problem.  The additional piece of info this time around is that I get no crashes/freezes when using Reaper, and this suggests to me that the computer hardware is all solid and not the source of the crashes (something I didn't know when I wrote the previous post).
 
As to RE Bone's point (2), I can say that yes, Sonar will load and run both with the audio interface connected and not connected.  I have not tried to use Sonar for an extended period of time without the audio interface (to see if I still get crashes), because this takes a great deal of time away from audio production.
 
As for RE Bone's point (1), I can easily instruct Windows to send Windows sounds to audio output I am not using.  I will report back in a week or so with whether I am still getting crashes.
 
 

Question for AlexS - you mentioned speed-stepping in your initial response to my post.  I have turned off speed-stepping in the BIOS (which is mentioned as an important tweak for audio computers on some web-sites i.e Sweetwater, etc).
 
Is speed-stepping something different from Core parking, or are they the same thing?   I have to find out more about this.

If you've disabled speedstep then you've also effectively disabled core parking I believe for all OS's installed on your machine

Hello.  Question for Mr. Bone:
 
So in Win 7 -> Control Panel -> Sounds, I see 4 tabs: Recording, Playback, Sounds, and Communication.  Under the "Sounds", I have it set to "No Sounds" and have unchecked the box that says "Play sounds when opening Windows".
 
Under the "Playback" and "Recording" tabs, there are a number of devices listed: the Mackie interface, a SPDIF input and output that is native to the MOBO, and an analog output that is native to the MOBO. 
 
Currently, under both the "Playback" and "Recording" tabs, I have the Mackie device selected as the default device.  If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that I should select one of the other devices as the default device.
 
This is an easy change to make and I will try it and report back.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Has been written many times I really think you should try an external display adapter at least after you've tried everything else. You can pick 'em up cheap...

I would get away from the way of thinking that it is Sonar/ that other apps are more reliable although the perception is totally understandable. Most people are not experiencing your issue with Sonar. It is definately drivers/hardware/under the bonnet OS issue.

Anyway plenty of ideas here good luck...

Well I occasionally experience occasional freezes with a third party video card. What I found was that the latest display drivers freezes my system and so I can't really ever update them. How I managed to nail it down was by removing the card and then never getting a lock up.
 
I'm suggesting doing the same thing but in reverse in order to rule out a display driver issue. Hopefully you've updated your display drivers by now (via Intel driver update or otherwise, not sure about your display chipset).
 
Thanks..

Hello JonD.  Thank you for you thoughts.
 
I have updated Windows, Sonar, got the latest MOBO drivers, updated the MIDI and audio interface drivers, and updated the BIOS.  I have tweaked Win 7 using all of the standard tricks that audio computer gurus suggest - including disabling hibernation and setting the power settings to "High Performance" and setting display and HDs to never sleep - and a whole bunch of other tweaks as well.
 
As for memory, I have run MemTest+86 for two FULL cycles - with no reported memory problems.  In addition, I swapped memory modules in and out of the computer on the off-chance that there was a bad memory module that MemTest was not identifying. 
 
And Sonar still crashes/freezes.
 
The last time I got a crash/freeze, I had a new (empty) project loaded into Sonar; no plug-ins running, no audio or MIDI data in the project, and was using the Media Browser to find some audio files to import - and then the computer froze solid.
 
What is telling for me is that I get no crashes/freezes when running Reaper - recording audio, recording MIDI data, editing audio and MIDI, running plug-ins, etc.  If there is a problem with the memory or a "memory leak", it does not occur when using Reaper.  This tells me that the computer components and audio and MIDI interfaces all work perfectly well.

Hey AlexS. 
 
I think we can fully rule out a problem with the memory modules themselves.  I have run the computer with a couple of different memory modules in it - swapping modules in and out of the computer; I continue to get crashes/freezes regardless of which module or what combination is in the computer.  So unless multiple modules have the same defect (none of which are being detected when tested by Memtest), we can be highly confident this is not a problem of the physical modules themselves.
 
And again, no crashes/freezes when using Reaper - and if there is a problem with the memory modules themselves, we would expect that problem to show up when running any software.  And that is not happening.  So I am highly confident that the memory modules themselves are a-ok.
 
I will make a deal with you regarding the display adapter: I will buy any display adapter you suggest, install it and run it in my computer.  If that solves the problem, wonderful!, and I give you a great big thank you.  If the problem continues, YOU reimburse me the cost of the display adapter, the cost of shipping, and one hour of my time.  I should point out that whatever problem exists with the current display set-up does not manifest itself when running Reaper or any other audio software I have.  So I am thinking this is barking up the wrong tree.  But you are very confident about this, and if you are willing to accept some of the risk with me (keep in mind that there is a possibility a different display adapter could cause some OTHER problem - as you yourself have found out), then I am willing to give it a try.  Agreed?

Hello AlexS
 
So what is your recommendation for a display adapter - Make, model?

You have 3  choices right now. 
1.You can believe your computer is at fault
2.You can believe X2 is at fault
3.You can believe the Mackie Drivers are at fault.   
 
1. I doubt it, you sound like you have looked into all reasonable issues. 
2. I'm not sure why Alex feels he needs to defend an obsolete, and buggy version of Sonar. It is high on my list of probabilities. 
3. I would ask around and see if the Mackie is working for others under Windows 7 64 bit. 
Try other web sites like Gear slutz. You really need to talk to other users. Is there a forum for the Mackie?