Anderton

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk

We have some very green support reps who jumped in at the busiest time possible and are trying to soak up as much as humanly possible. We're extremely dedicated to helping to make SONAR better and better and we haven't even revealed our full hand yet. We are a small team though, so from time to time we definitely do make mistakes.

You're not allowed to make mistakes. Ever. No one else here does 
 
Seriously, seems to me the major success of X3 has pros and cons. The con is that now a zillion people are beating it up and encountering issues, although I must say after looking through these threads that a lot of the issues are pilot error and/or unfamiliarity with a particular feature and have been solved. The pro is also that a zillion people are beating it up and encountering issues, so they can find things that might take a team of beta testers months to find, if ever. 
 
I really think the rapid pace of updates indicates the extent to which you take reports seriously, but there's no way your team is going to be able to fix everyone's favorite bug and/or feature enhancement in parallel. This kind of thing is a bit of a serial interface.
 
And I know you haven't revealed your full hand yet  

If I may chime in:
 
Software with this complexity of a daw will always have some level of unfixed things.
 
But as long as communication is going on - you are probably very patient, I know I am.
 
When communication breaks down - the buildup of steam starts.
It goes for any human situation - like Syria or users and vendors.
 
And look at the number of users letting off steam at KVR and other places - feeling neglected by Cakewalk. At least that is how I interpret it.
 
If I have to choose from being liked and getting things fixed - I select getting things fixed.
If we didn't like Sonar we wouldn't care.

i'd like to see a maintained "known issues" post stickied at the top of the forum, it would save so much of this gnarly to-and-fro
 
"we're here because YOU broke something" ;-)

beltrom
DDMF's metaplugin can be used to solve these problems. It's not just for audio networks it works great with midi as well. So I've for example not only used VSTi arps and step sequencers but also used instruments in Kontakt and ensembles in reaktor to trigger other VSTi's. I realize it doesn't answer the question of the bug or routability in Sonar, but it is a solution (at a limited cost) if needed. It basically turns the fx bin into a modular host of VSTi's and VST's so the possibilities are scary.
 
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3
 
As usual, test that it works and that it's what you need before purchasing.
 
Edit: I've sent in a feature request to get something like this built into the effect bin, wouldn't that be neat?
Edit2: A problem with it, plugins "locked" to Sonar (Nomad factory f e) doesn't work in it. They think they are being used outside of Sonar.

Really cool suggestion, thanks for that.
 
I looked at these a while ago - and they don't host VST3 yet, I believe. The Waves stuff all become VST3 in Sonar and mixing VST2 is begging for trouble. But for all VST2 synths it's really good idea.
 
But they look cool, just like rackbuilder in Tracktion. Just drag-n-drop connections between synths, midi or otherwise.
 
So similar thing for effectchains in Sonar - and open up for free routing anywhere - without reworking the daw completely.
 
Email reply from DDMF in august:
"thanks for your email! Metaplugin indeed comes in two separate versions: one effect version and one synth version. There's one MIDI "channel" in each Metaplugin. And up to eight mono channels are available in Metaplugin, depending on how many channels the track has where Metaplugin is loaded. So if you load it in a surround track, for instance, you should see 6 channels (5+1). "

beltrom
As far as I remember there's really no difference between fx and synth except how it presents itself.

 
I asked if they had both - since you in Sonar, Samplitude and Studio One have either instrument or audio tracks - so you could use it either way you like - building effect chains on synths or just audiotracks as well. It would not list in both synths and effects otherwise.
 
But now the midi in on audio tracks should work in x3c so the difference is maybe minor loading a synth on audiotrack.
 
I will download that demo and check this rackunit out. Questionmark is whether it report correct latency to Sonar to line up stuff. It would have to be dynamic, kind of. If I remember right Soanr recalculate every time you start transport.
 

Every 2-3 months this flares up again, I agree that cooler heads should prevail.
 
But, all these bugs and weird behaviour that are pointed out in literally hundreds of posts are just different manifestations of same enable midi out from VSTi bug. 
 
They have been described to death.  And I understand the frustration as I am frustrated too.
 
Once again, as long as you have only one vsti sending midi to one soft synth or drum rompler in Sonar X1, X2 and X3 you will not see any issues.  Once you try to use two VSTi out, you get weird stuff happening.
 
Watch all 5 minutes, this is the best description.  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Pf1b6bTk8

auto_da_fe
Every 2-3 months this flares up again, I agree that cooler heads should prevail. But, all these bugs and weird behaviour that are pointed out in literally hundreds of posts are just different manifestations of same enable midi out from VSTi bug.  They have been described to death.  And I understand the frustration as I am frustrated too. Once again, as long as you have only one vsti sending midi to one soft synth or drum rompler in Sonar X1, X2 and X3 you will not see any issues.  Once you try to use two VSTi out, you get weird stuff happening. Watch all 5 minutes, this is the best description.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Pf1b6bTk8

The video is X2. X2 works as I would expect. X3 is not working in the same way as X2, I know this as I have tried the exact same set up in both (starting from scratch in both cases) and X2 works off the bat and X3 requires the deletion and redeployment of the slave device (the midi driven plugin).
Unfortunately nobody seems to reporting their own findings so I'm having to assume my method of getting around this problem is a practical method of using midi out .

Grum.

lfm, I thought your CWBRN was fine. You explained what you were trying to do clearly. AFAIK Dimension Pro isn't going to send notes back to the host like you were expecting in your example, but I can see how that isn't obvious at all from your point of view. This probably could have been handled better on our end versus just pushing the case over to support to be honest. Sorry about that :/
 
I think what most likely gets people hung up on this is that a synth may expose that it supports MIDI Output, and therefore SONAR detects this and exposes it as an option, but it doesn't necessarily mean the synth supports sending notes, cc data, etc back to the host. In other words, as far as I understand it, the existence of the MIDI Out option from the synth doesn't indicate that all functions under the sun have been programmed into the synth itself. Maybe it sends one of those things, all of those things, or none of those things. It definitely differs.
 
I think some of the bugs people are perceiving are just features not implemented into the synths they are using when trying to test the feature.
 
Maybe what might be helpful is to start with something that we know sends MIDI out like Catanya, Jamstix, etc.. The demo in the video a few posts above using Reaktor is great, but a bit intense if you're not familiar.
 
Side note: that video is definitely helpful. Thank you for sharing it! I'm pretty sure we have documented cases of the behavior being shown internally. That's not quite the same thing that was reported in the CWBRN though, which seemed ultimately just trying to figure out how the feature worked in a broader sense.
 
Anyhow, I think there might be something odd about SONAR detecting MIDI Out as an option on what appears to be every synth. I'm not personally sure. I'm bugging people internally about it. Might not have an answer for a bit on this though.

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
lfm, I thought your CWBRN was fine. You explained what you were trying to do clearly. AFAIK Dimension Pro isn't going to send notes back to the host like you were expecting in your example, but I can see how that isn't obvious at all from your point of view. This probably could have been handled better on our end versus just pushing the case over to support to be honest. Sorry about that :/

I think what most likely gets people hung up on this is that a synth may expose that it supports MIDI Output, and therefore SONAR detects this and exposes it as an option, but it doesn't necessarily mean the synth supports sending notes, cc data, etc back to the host. In other words, as far as I understand it, the existence of the MIDI Out option from the synth doesn't indicate that all functions under the sun have been programmed into the synth itself. Maybe it sends one of those things, all of those things, or none of those things. It definitely differs.

I think some of the bugs people are perceiving are just features not implemented into the synths they are using when trying to test the feature.

Maybe what might be helpful is to start with something that we know sends MIDI out like Catanya, Jamstix, etc.. The demo is the video a few posts above using Reaktor is great, but a bit intense if you're not familiar.

Side note: that video is definitely helpful. Thank you for sharing it! I'm pretty sure we have documented cases of the behavior being shown internally. That's not quite the same thing that was reported in the CWBRN though, which seemed ultimately just trying to figure out how the feature worked in a broader sense.

Anyhow, I think there might be something odd about SONAR detecting MIDI Out is an option or what appears to be every synth. I'm not personally sure. I'm bugging people internally about it. Might not have an answer for a bit on this though.

As you can see from my above post it appears Sonar X3 is working as I'd expect now but I couldn't make it work a couple of days ago (without messing about).
I do know how to set up Cthulhu to another device so I don't know what is different today.
 
Grum.

I have come a conclusion (which is supported by Ryan's post):
 
Do not be confused by the little box comes up and lets you tick "Enable Midi Output" when you create a plugin device. It isn't a one size fits all solution and can lead to unnecessary head-scratching and irate(ish) posts to user forums.
I'll stick to using it with RealStrat and Cthulhu as I know they support it. Anything else is off limits!
 
Grum. 

I've encountered so few plug-in synths with true MIDI out I don't use it. One plug-in that I know does it correctly is Groove Agent. Nice to see from this thread there are at least a few others.

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
 
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
 
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
 
Edit for typos.

Ryan, this particular issue has been around for 5+ years and some of us have been trying to get CW to see the problem for almost as long. I'm really really glad this is getting so much attention now because I got tired of being told it is user error. I've spent so much of my time on this issue and have been so frustrated by it that I eventually gave up on Sonar and moved to another DAW.
 
Part of the frustration is that every time this issue comes up, people either don't understand it and insists it is user error, or that it is a buggy plugin. Once CW finally realized there is really something wrong with Sonar's MIDI implementation, the fix for it has been set on the backburner for years. Instead CW spent time on X1 which introduced a pile of new bugs that took priority over anything else, so I realized it wasn't going to get fixed.
 
So when you ask for "clear steps", it is insulting those of us that have been talking about this bug for many many years. Let's look at what I've done to get CW's attention, then you tell me how clear steps weren't provided almost 5 years ago:

• CWBRN-1336 -Multiple MIDI bugs, all related to VSTi MIDI output (filed on 02/24/2009)
• CWBRN-2504 - Bugs related to the "Enable MIDI Output" functionality (this refers back to 1336 and gives additional info on how to reproduce it)
• CWBRN-2534 - Can't record from two MIDI keyboards at the same time 
• CWBRN-2533 - MIDI notes cut short when a different source sends notes
• Created a web page in Feb 2009 that details clear steps, including:
  • A VSTi that reproduces the issue, including source code
  • A Sonar project used to reproduce it
  • Very clear steps on how to reproduce it
• A very long email discussion with Willey Jones regarding this issue where I provide great detail on reproducing it. All I got back was empty promises that it will be fixed.
• Endless threads about this issue, usually met with arguments how this really isn't a bug, just user error. See here, here, here, here. There are more.

Yes I got really angry about this issue in many threads, but given how hard I tried to get CW to realize it has serious MIDI routing problems has been super frustrating. I eventually left for another DAW because I felt I spent too much time and money on this. As I said, I have a $99 CW credit, but even so I'm not willing to spend $1 on CW software since I always bought "the next version" hoping this bug would be fixed in that release, only to find out I've been fed yet another empty promise that it will get fixed.
 
It still amazes me that Sonar can go so many years with having such a serious MIDI routing bug that causes MIDI crosstalk and crashes. Crosstalk belongs in old analog mixing consoles, not in a "professional" DAW, especially not MIDI, holy cow!
 
So once again, it is insulting to those of us that put in all that fruitless efforts to get this issue acknowledged when you say "...instead of just providing a clear set of steps...". Clear steps have been provided for almost 5 years now.

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

SilkTone

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
 
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
 
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
 
Edit for typos.

Ryan, this particular issue has been around for 5+ years and some of us have been trying to get CW to see the problem for almost as long. I'm really really glad this is getting so much attention now because I got tired of being told it is user error. I've spent so much of my time on this issue and have been so frustrated by it that I eventually gave up on Sonar and moved to another DAW.
 
Part of the frustration is that every time this issue comes up, people either don't understand it and insists it is user error, or that it is a buggy plugin. Once CW finally realized there is really something wrong with Sonar's MIDI implementation, the fix for it has been set on the backburner for years. Instead CW spent time on X1 which introduced a pile of new bugs that took priority over anything else, so I realized it wasn't going to get fixed.
 
So when you ask for "clear steps", it is insulting those of us that have been talking about this bug for many many years. Let's look at what I've done to get CW's attention, then you tell me how clear steps weren't provided almost 5 years ago:

• CWBRN-1336 -Multiple MIDI bugs, all related to VSTi MIDI output (filed on 02/24/2009)
• CWBRN-2504 - Bugs related to the "Enable MIDI Output" functionality (this refers back to 1336 and gives additional info on how to reproduce it)
• CWBRN-2534 - Can't record from two MIDI keyboards at the same time 
• CWBRN-2533 - MIDI notes cut short when a different source sends notes
• Created a web page in Feb 2009 that details clear steps, including:
  • A VSTi that reproduces the issue, including source code
  • A Sonar project used to reproduce it
  • Very clear steps on how to reproduce it
• A very long email discussion with Willey Jones regarding this issue where I provide great detail on reproducing it. All I got back was empty promises that it will be fixed.
• Endless threads about this issue, usually met with arguments how this really isn't a bug, just user error. See here, here, here, here. There are more.

Yes I got really angry about this issue in many threads, but given how hard I tried to get CW to realize it has serious MIDI routing problems has been super frustrating. I eventually left for another DAW because I felt I spent too much time and money on this. As I said, I have a $99 CW credit, but even so I'm not willing to spend $1 on CW software since I always bought "the next version" hoping this bug would be fixed in that release, only to find out I've been fed yet another empty promise that it will get fixed.
 
It still amazes me that Sonar can go so many years with having such a serious MIDI routing bug that causes MIDI crosstalk and crashes. Crosstalk belongs in old analog mixing consoles, not in a "professional" DAW, especially not MIDI, holy cow!
 
So once again, it is insulting to those of us that put in all that fruitless efforts to get this issue acknowledged when you say "...instead of just providing a clear set of steps...". Clear steps have been provided for almost 5 years now.

You're digging up and old thread and taking it out of context. You're replying to the first of my posts and not the ones following up.
 
Yesterday I closed out a CWBRN as "fixed" which notified you of it. Our Dev and QA team returned this as fixed as part of the X3b and X3c updates, I was just behind with closing out the CWBRN report.
 
The topic in this thread is not quite the same. Why don't we start a new thread about the issues you've identified on your website and let others chime in on what is and isn't working so that we don't go down the wrong path again this time.

 
Well I'm pointing out the irony of you believing the users are insulting the IQ of CW support, yet what is really happening as that CW is insulting the IQ of their own users. Why? Because 2.5 years after filing CWBRN-1336 (which includes providing the web page with painstaking details, a VSTi plugin with source code, and a Sonar project) and asking for a status update, I get this response from CW support:

Thank you for contacting Cakewalk Technical Support. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We were unable to create the issue with the steps provided.
 
Please submit this issue to our problem reporter within the link below...
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/ProblemReporter/
 
Some things to remember... 
1. Provide your instructions starting with a blank SONAR project. 
2. Please only use/reference plugins that are included with SONAR (no 3rd party plug referenced please). 
3. Include every step, even the ones you'd think to be obvious (there are many ways to get to the same results, I'd like to make sure we're both following the same workflow).
 
Thank you for choosing Cakewalk!

 
So who is more dysfunctional? CW or Sonar users?

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
SilkTone, it is my understanding that we resolved the cases you reported. Each CWBRN is closed as fixed. Last time we resolved a case in the context of the case you argued with us about the facts.

 
Yes you guys fix bugs in such a timely fashion! Especially for example such minor ones where Sonar can't get basic MIDI routing right.
 
Anyway, my reply was in direct response to you saying customers are insulting CW support IQ. I was pointing out the irony, and giving an example where dealing with your support is like pulling teeth. I used to be really nice guy on these forums but dealing with that level of support quality has made me jaded and bitter.
 
And just for the record, the "MIDI Crosstalk" bug that was fixed that you elude to originated from one of the many reproduce steps I provided to show the issues with Sonar's MIDI implementation. It did turn out to be a different bug, but at the time it surely sounded like CW fixed the MIDI routing issues and I was once again duped into paying for yet another broken upgrade.