konradh
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Mix Levels for Mastering
I talked to a mastering lab today about an album I am working on. They requested that each song have a PEAK (not average) level of no more than -3.
Does that sound right to most of you?
Obviously, they know what they are doing but I thought that was a little cool for a transient peak. I am having to scale back several mixes because I was trying to get the mixes strong prior to master bus compression to minimize the need for it.
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bapu
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 20, 14 10:55 PM
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If the songs are mixed right, -3db is enough headroom. If you sit back and listen to all of it and you feel the need to turn up and down the volume between the tracks then maybe -6db is better.
When I worked with Danny Danzi in the past he asked for a least -3db.
Also, hopefully -3b has a good dynamic range. That's the key IMHO.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 3:46 AM
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I try to get my mixes peaking no higher than -6dB prior to mastering.
This makes album compilation a total breeze.
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bitflipper
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 11:57 AM
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☄ Helpfulby konradh January 21, 14 8:12 PM
-3dB peaks should be fine for the mastering guy to work with. So would -6dB. Or even -12dB. Either way, he's going to turn it up. If anything, I'd consider -3 to be a bit hot.
What he's really asking for is enough headroom to adjust the RMS values without having to squash those peaks too much. If you gave him a file that peaked at, say, -0.1dB, then it would be physically impossible for him to raise the RMS level without significant peak limiting. Giving him 3dB means he's got more options.
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joel77
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 12:27 AM
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I agree. I never let my final mix-before-mastering go above -3db and, as others have said usually closer to -6db.
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AT
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 12:34 AM
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He (or she) just doesn't want a mix coming in at -.3 dB. Nothing much left to master w/ something like that. As others have said, -3 dB and more is fine.
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konradh
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 12:53 AM
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OK, thanks. Given this advice, I am going to mix so that the peaks are all LOWER than -3db. Many of my songs tend to run along at a certain level and then have one or two brief peaks, even though nothing audibly changes. I believe it is usually something in the vocal. Because of my style and highly structured programming, the instruments generally have very consistent levels.
By the way, the person in question was Julie at Sweetwater in the studio division.
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drewfx1
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 12:59 AM
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I'm always baffled by this "leave room" argument.
Do mastering engineers not request/use/understand floating point? Or do they, and this is supposed to be some sort of social engineering?
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 1:38 PM
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drewfx1
Do mastering engineers...
I'm going with number 2. :-)
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Guitarpima
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 1:42 PM
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There's a new school of thought about this and for the broadcasting industry, it is now law. The LUFS, loudness unit full scale, law is meant to bring restraint to the industry. It seems that it does not apply to the music industry but there are those who would like it to.
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Anderton
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 4:43 PM
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I ask for -6dB peaks, 24-bit resolution, no processing at all in the master bus, and if applicable, ten seconds or more of "silence" at the beginning and end in case I need to take a noiseprint for noise reduction.
However, it's important to note that -6dB doesn't guarantee there wasn't internal clipping or limiting within the mix itself. I sometimes get flat-lined material - it just flatlines to -6dB instead of 0.1dB.
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konradh
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 8:06 PM
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Craig, That is interesting. I have not sent anyone tracks yet and was just inquiring, but Sweetwater specifically asked for 16-bit.
They also asked for the songs in CD order, which seemed odd to me. I may rearrange after mastering.
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Guitarpima
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 8:18 PM
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If you sent them a bunch of songs for a cd, it's probably because it helps for smoothing the changes from track to track for a more balanced level throughout the cd.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 8:31 PM
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I am also a bit surprised that they are insisting on 16 bit files. That seems a bit odd to me. If you have done all the recording and mixing in 24 bit then the best way is to master is do all the mastering in 24 bit as well and dither down to 16 bit usually in the limiter (eg ala PSP Xenon. I also see that PSP have released a special dither plugin which also looks very interesting.)
So how are you going to turn the 24 bit files down to 16 bit. You need to think that through.
Song order I can agree with because sometimes you may have to tweak the volume of a track that is sandwiched between two tracks and if that is changed for any reason then it may not need that gain adjustment after all.
Sweetwater in not in the business of mastering (sorry) they are in the retail business. Maybe you should reconsider a different mastering option.
Leaving that amount of headroom is the correct approach for sure. In Craig's case if I received a flat lined file that only peaked -6dB I would send it back and tell to remove what ever it was that was flat lining it in the first place. It means that some silly person has heavily limited the music somewhere and that is a form of mastering.
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CJaysMusic
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 9:16 PM
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus January 22, 14 2:56 PM
To reiterate (I love spell check) what Jeff said, 16 bit isn't good for mastering, as you would have to dither. You cannot (should not) dither before mastering. Dithering is done at the very end.
CJ
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Anderton
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 9:33 PM
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drewfx1
I'm always baffled by this "leave room" argument.
Do mastering engineers not request/use/understand floating point? Or do they, and this is supposed to be some sort of social engineering?
Most people who mix don't test for (or are even necessarily aware of) inter-sample distortion.
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Anderton
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 9:37 PM
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Jeff Evans
I am also a bit surprised that they are insisting on 16 bit files. That seems a bit odd to me. If you have done all the recording and mixing in 24 bit then the best way is to master is do all the mastering in 24 bit as well and dither down to 16 bit usually in the limiter (eg ala PSP Xenon. I also see that PSP have released a special dither plugin which also looks very interesting.) Agreed. I'd rather that the mastering engineer do the dithering.
Leaving that amount of headroom is the correct approach for sure. In Craig's case if I received a flat lined file that only peaked -6dB I would send it back and tell to remove what ever it was that was flat lining it in the first place. It means that some silly person has heavily limited the music somewhere and that is a form of mastering.
You are welcome to use the term "faux mastering" free of charge  You'll appreciate this, Jeff: I once received a mix that was flat-lined due not to limiting, but clipping. So I sent it back and asked the person to give me a version that was down -6dB. So I got the same clipped version, but the peaks were at -6dB. Eventually we got it sorted out. It was worth it, I liked his music.
post edited by Anderton - January 23, 14 10:54 PM
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bitflipper
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 11:46 PM
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drewfx1
I'm always baffled by this "leave room" argument.
Do mastering engineers not request/use/understand floating point? Or do they, and this is supposed to be some sort of social engineering?
Quite right! If they just requested 32-bit files then levels wouldn't really matter. But while some will gladly accept any format you want to send them, others will be specific, perhaps asking for 24-bit files. I always assumed it was because they were using a PT HD system. In this case they asked for 16-bit files, which while not the norm isn't entirely unheard of. They probably specified 44.1 as well. Perhaps it's like buying unfinished furniture: you save money by doing some of the labor yourself.
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mettelus
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 21, 14 11:57 PM
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Egads... It seems very counter-intuitive that with the flaming that goes on about bit depth, sample rates, etc., that someone would then send the unfinished (but damn near done) product to someone else for "finishing" in significantly lower formats. That just makes me even more confused as to "what is the point?" Isn't that akin to taking a beautiful painting to be framed and having the framer say "no, no... you need to first sand that painting smooth... then we will frame it for you!" bitflipper
Perhaps it's like buying unfinished furniture: you save money by doing some of the labor yourself.
I think I will head down this recommended path... even failing miserably as I learn, I will at least learn as I go... and I do have all of the tools, I just don't know how to use them well (yet).
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Blogman
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 2:04 AM
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peak at - 0.1 is fine for mastering. anything under zero. the headroom is determined more by the RMS. Usually pre-mastered mixes are round -19 - -20.0 RMS with the peak just under zero. That leaves the mastering engineer about 6 - 7 dbs of headroom to raise via multiband and/or brick wall limiter. (L2 threshold at -6 with peak at -0.2 with 16 bit dithering) This would result in a RMS of -13, a good CD volume.
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John
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 6:46 AM
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It doesn't matter if it sounds right to us its what they requested. I'm not sure why you are even asking this forum about this.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 7:16 AM
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If a pre master had an rms value of -20 but had peaks close to zero that is not such a bad situation as the peaks can be limited to values less than that eg -6 or so then the total rms value of the master can come up accordingly and in stages too. What is more common are pre masters to be sitting around -14 and peaks coming up to -3 dB or so. This results in transients that are still 11 dB above rms values and will still sound pretty good.
This would result in a RMS of -13, a good CD volume.....
This would be nice of course but.. No, sorry in the real world most clients would consider this to be way too soft. More like -6 ot -7 dB rms for final masters to be nice and loud. You need a great limiter to do this and still maintain transients.
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 8:08 AM
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konradh
Craig, That is interesting. I have not sent anyone tracks yet and was just inquiring, but Sweetwater specifically asked for 16-bit.
They also asked for the songs in CD order, which seemed odd to me. I may rearrange after mastering.
There is a difference between "glass mastering" and bogus mastering. If you are just asking them to glass master then someone has to take the responsibility of preparing 16 bit files. Perhaps there is a mis communication about what sort of mastering you and they are speaking about? best regards, mike
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 8:24 AM
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Anderton
drewfx1
I'm always baffled by this "leave room" argument.
Do mastering engineers not request/use/understand floating point? Or do they, and this is supposed to be some sort of social engineering?
Most people who mix don't test for (or are even necessarily aware of) inter-sample distortion.
Most people who are aware of intersample peak distortion do not seem to consider the implication of what the term intersample means. For example; What does half a sample at a 44.1kHz sample rate sound like? A person can demonstrate for them selves that a full 0dBFS clip has to extend for several samples before it is discernible. That is why so many commercial releases actually have 0dBFS clips that go unnoticed without specific analysis. The idea that intersample distortion is problematic is an idea that disregards the idea that no one is capable of noticing actual, real life intersample peak distortion at 44.1kHz. Can someone hear an intersample peak in a 22.05kHz mp3? Maybe. Can someone hear an intersample peak in a 11.025kHz teleconferance call? Probably. In other words, if someone thinks they can hear "intersample peaking" at 44.1kHz what they are probably hearing is a squared wave, 0dBFS clip, with a duration of 10 or more samples. They are certainly not really hearing the actual real life intersample peak that may, or may not have occurred within the very first sample interval of the sequence of samples that would have extended beyond 0dBFS. regards, mike spelling
post edited by mike_mccue - January 22, 14 11:39 AM
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 8:36 AM
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bitflipper
drewfx1
I'm always baffled by this "leave room" argument.
Do mastering engineers not request/use/understand floating point? Or do they, and this is supposed to be some sort of social engineering?
Quite right! If they just requested 32-bit files then levels wouldn't really matter. But while some will gladly accept any format you want to send them, others will be specific, perhaps asking for 24-bit files.
Let us say that the "mastering engineer" wanted 24bit integer files. What is the harm in supplying a mix that peaks at -1dBFS? I've heard all the explanations about why the mix should be peaking at *insert number here*dBFS and I'm still waiting to encounter one that actually makes sense from either a technical or aesthetic standpoint.
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BJN
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 9:24 AM
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I suggest you turn your monitoring up if you tend to mix too hot. DAC volume knob is handy.
It is also a good idea to throw a limiter on or a basic master chain on the master bus to check your mix but remove it when printing the mixdown.
16bit does sound dodgy but I suspect it is a safety to prevent any dithering before mastering.
Many Mastering houses will up sample all the tracks and it is not uncommon to clip the AD converters via their analogue chain.
3 overs usually equals a clip and with some gear manufacturers who don't want their products sounding "clipped" too quickly with operator error might even lower the real 0dbfs.
This margin, especially 3 sample overs equaling a clip; it actually might not be actually clipping especially with expensive ADDA Converters. I think it is called "riding the skids"
Yep some go off the rails. LOLOL
For us mix guys you just make your mixes as best as you can taking into consideration the intended audience and media.
It is usually up to the mastering house to assemble the order per your instructions. So you got to live with your mixes and try out the order or give it to the producer to decide.
-3 is hot
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brconflict
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 11:03 AM
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mike_mccue
konradh
Craig, That is interesting. I have not sent anyone tracks yet and was just inquiring, but Sweetwater specifically asked for 16-bit.
They also asked for the songs in CD order, which seemed odd to me. I may rearrange after mastering.
There is a difference between "glass mastering" and bogus mastering. If you are just asking them to glass master then someone has to take the responsibility of preparing 16 bit files.
Perhaps there is a mis communication about what sort of mastering you and they are speaking about?
best regards,
mike
I would re-question this as well to Sweetwater. Although some Mastering houses Mastered 16-bit recordings in the 90's, it sounds like Sweetwater is assuming you have your final mix ready and are wanting to go to CD Glass Master, which in the 70's and 80's would technically mean, "Mastering". Make sure you know what they are going to do, because a true Mastering session isn't typically a hand-off from Mixing Engineer to Mastering Engineer. There's reasonable back-and-forth between the two until a solid relationship/trust is formed over time. For making a glass-master, it really is a simple hand-off at 16-Bit 44.1Khz. Definitely get clarity. I messed up on an LP because the press didn't clearly define "High-Volume", which I interpreted as mass-production vs. actual high-volume. Surrounding text indicated the former. I should have gotten better clarity around this. It was a $270 mistake on my part. Don't regret. Get.
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konradh
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 2:22 PM
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Great discussion.
John, What the heck did this mean:
"It doesn't matter if it sounds right to us its what they requested. I'm not sure why you are even asking this forum about this."
I am asking this forum obviously because I wanted opinions and advice. I got a great deal of both which has enabled me to select the right mastering service and to prepare my mixes. This is a Sonar foum and I am mixing in Sonar.
Based on the comments, I think I will use a different mastering service.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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John
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 2:53 PM
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It means Konrad that you have spoken to the mastering people and they have told you what they require. To me that is the end of it. What this forum thinks is irrelevant. I doubt you are going to deliver something that is not within the the -3 dB request.
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konradh
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Re: Mix Levels for Mastering
January 22, 14 2:57 PM
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OK, John, gotcha. But while I would deliver the format and levels and bit-depth the service requested, based on the feedback here, I will probably select a different service. Take care.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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