Helpful ReplyInput gain makes no difference to instrument tracks?

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andyjobson85
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2018/11/11 17:39:51 (permalink)

Input gain makes no difference to instrument tracks?

Does the input gain knob (at the top of every track in the console view) not have any effect on instrument tracks? It does affect audio tracks but not instrument tracks for some reason.
 
I can lower the level of some instruments that have a master output level control, but not all instruments have this (e.g. Nanotron 2). In those cases I can't control the level of the signal before it hits the pro-channel, unless I set the pro-channel post-fader, but I'd rather not do that.
 
Is Cakewalk like this by design for some reason?
post edited by andyjobson85 - 2018/11/12 09:48:56
#1
scook
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/11 17:44:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby msmcleod 2018/11/11 20:57:49
Instrument tracks are a hybrid of MIDI input controls and audio output controls. The knob marked "Gain" on an instrument track inspector is actually the Velocity Trim from the MIDI track. To access the audio track gain control, an instrument track must be split into its audio and MIDI tracks.
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sock monkey
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/11 18:35:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steve_Karl 2018/11/13 10:10:32
Another good reason not to use Simple Instrument tracks... 
I like mine separated. And then you can treat the VST instrument track just like any audio track. 

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Anderton
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/11 19:20:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steve_Karl 2018/11/13 10:10:48
sock monkey
Another good reason not to use Simple Instrument tracks... 
I like mine separated. And then you can treat the VST instrument track just like any audio track. 

 
Same here. I also put them in a synth folder, which makes it very easy to show/hide MIDI and audio tracks, as well as take notes on the track (e.g., instrument preset or whatever).

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msmcleod
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/11 20:48:22 (permalink)
scook
Instrument tracks are a hybrid of MIDI input controls and audio output controls. The knob marked "Gain" on an instrument track inspector is actually the Velocity Trim from the MIDI track. To access the audio track gain control, an instrument track must be split into its audio and MIDI tracks.


I've wondered why this is the case too - thanks for clearing this up scook.
 
It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based.
 
IMO it would make far better sense for the gain knob to swap between audio gain and "MIDI" gain when you swap between the Audio & MIDI tabs - just like every other control does (e.g. Volume, Pan etc).

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marled
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/11 20:50:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby msmcleod 2018/11/11 20:57:38
I often use Simple Instrument tracks. And when I want to make some changes to things not visible I split the track temporarily with "Split Instrument Track" (e.g. set the audio track to mono), then I put them together again with "Make Instrument Track". Like that I have a better overview (less tracks). Runs perfect, I like it!

... many years before ...
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andyjobson85
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/12 09:48:49 (permalink)
Thanks everyone for the answers!
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/12 16:09:04 (permalink)
I have never taken to instrument tracks. They were only added as a feature because other DAWs had it and some users complained that SONAR should have them, too. After they were introduced with SONAR 8, I gave them a go and soon abandoned them as being too restrictive. They really offer only one advantage - keeping your track view tidy - but many disadvantages and limitations.
 
My solution is to keep MIDI and audio tracks in separate folders, ordering both in the same sequence so it's easy to locate a MIDI track's companion audio track and vice versa. This doesn't really add much clutter, since depending on where I'm at in the project's life cycle I'm going to be working primarily with MIDI or primarily with audio, and can simply close whichever track folder I'm not spending much time in.
 
Track templates can include folders, which is especially handy for multi-timbral instruments and complex routing. For example, I have an orchestral string track template that automatically creates four MIDI tracks in a folder, four corresponding audio tracks in another folder all named according to their respective string sections, loads Kontakt with my go-to string library, and routes all the audio tracks to a "strings" buss. All with a couple of mouse clicks.


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John
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/12 16:44:24 (permalink)
Nor have I taken to instrument tracks. For the very same reasons as Dave. There is one good part to them, they can be separated and go back to a MIDI and audio tracks. This provision that they baked into them can save one from these kinds of things. 

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msmcleod
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/12 19:09:15 (permalink)
I tend to favour instrument tracks, as I find it convenient not only for treating them as one track, but also I find it easier to swap out synths on the fly.
 
With the synth rack, I've got the MIDI track, the synth, and the outputs to separate audio tracks to deal with. If I change synths, I've got to re-route everything, which gets in the way of my workflow during writing.
 
I don't mind having duplicates of synths as I rarely get anywhere near to maxing out CPU or RAM.
 
Once I'm happy with an instrument track, I usually freeze it so I can treat it solely as audio.
 
I guess it all depends on your workflow...
 
If you've got a good idea for your song before you start recording (or a better memory than I have for keeping ideas in your head!), then separating them out will work fine.
 
I write and record as I go along. Getting ideas down quickly and developing them in the moment is priority for me.
 

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Kev999
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/12 22:05:28 (permalink)
msmcleod
scook
...The knob marked "Gain" on an instrument track inspector is actually the Velocity Trim from the MIDI track...

...It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based...

 
Apparently this was a "known problem" during the X-series era, but they never got round to fixing it.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m3220800.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m3097199.aspx
 

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/13 17:13:14 (permalink)
msmcleod
I've wondered why this is the case too - thanks for clearing this up scook.
 
It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based.
 
IMO it would make far better sense for the gain knob to swap between audio gain and "MIDI" gain when you swap between the Audio & MIDI tabs - just like every other control does (e.g. Volume, Pan etc).




This is a great idea actually since it would allow for accessing both controls from the inspector!
We'll consider it.
 
[Edit] I misspoke - input gain is not used for synth audio tracks. Input gain is pre fader gain that is applied to audio data from track and not synth output or from hardware input monitor. 
See the signal flow chart that illustrates this. So this is indeed by design that the input gain knob exclusively controls just the MIDI velocity+ which is somewhat equivalent in function to audio input gain.
 
[Edit2] I confused myself above lol. Input Gain is indeed available on audio channels for instrument tracks. So we'll implement the behavior recommended in this thread. Thanks for the feedback!
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2019/03/25 21:58:22

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paulo
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/13 20:12:24 (permalink)
msmcleod
I tend to favour instrument tracks, as I find it convenient not only for treating them as one track, but also I find it easier to swap out synths on the fly.
 
With the synth rack, I've got the MIDI track, the synth, and the outputs to separate audio tracks to deal with. If I change synths, I've got to re-route everything, which gets in the way of my workflow during writing.
 
I don't mind having duplicates of synths as I rarely get anywhere near to maxing out CPU or RAM.
 
Once I'm happy with an instrument track, I usually freeze it so I can treat it solely as audio.
 
I guess it all depends on your workflow...
 
If you've got a good idea for your song before you start recording (or a better memory than I have for keeping ideas in your head!), then separating them out will work fine.
 
I write and record as I go along. Getting ideas down quickly and developing them in the moment is priority for me.
 





Everything he said. I'd be lost without them now. It's easy enough to split them out if/when required and then combine again, so I've never understood why people don't like them. Having all the clutter of separate midi tracks or another folder containing them in which I would then have to go looking for them if required seems much more long winded to me.
 
 
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andyjobson85
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/15 13:20:39 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
So this is indeed by design that the input gain knob exclusively controls just the MIDI velocity+ which is somewhat equivalent in function to audio input gain.




It isn't really the 'equivalent' control if a lower MIDI velocity triggers a different sample altogether within the instrument..
 
input gain should change the apparent volume, not the sample being played.. surely?
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/15 13:58:15 (permalink)
Correct. In this case the control is simply mis-labeled. Once upon a time, it was referred to by its proper name, "velocity offset".
 
Given that a MIDI track's input is binary data, and there is no audio until the instrument it's driving makes some, "volume" has no meaning in this context. The easy solution would be for CW to rename that control "velocity".


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msmcleod
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/15 18:10:45 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
msmcleod
I've wondered why this is the case too - thanks for clearing this up scook.
 
It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based.
 
IMO it would make far better sense for the gain knob to swap between audio gain and "MIDI" gain when you swap between the Audio & MIDI tabs - just like every other control does (e.g. Volume, Pan etc).




This is a great idea actually since it would allow for accessing both controls from the inspector!
We'll consider it.
 
[Edit] I misspoke - input gain is not used for synth audio tracks. Input gain is pre fader gain that is applied to audio data from track and not synth output or from hardware input monitor. 
See the signal flow chart that illustrates this. So this is indeed by design that the input gain knob exclusively controls just the MIDI velocity+ which is somewhat equivalent in function to audio input gain.




According to the signal flow chart, the instrument output hits the audio track after the audio gain.
 
This would imply that if I split an instrument track, changing the audio gain will have no effect whatsoever... except if I do this it does actually change the gain.
 
Recombining the tracks back into an instrument track retains the audio gain setting...
 
Furthermore, splitting the audio track again shows the audio track gain control exactly as I set it, meaning the audio gain setting it is getting stored inside the instrument track.
 
So if an instrument track is actually an audio track and a midi track just displayed as one, why can't the Gain knob be linked to the Audio track gain when the Audio tab is selected, and the MIDI track gain when the MIDI tab is selected?
 

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brundlefly
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/16 18:02:52 (permalink)
Audio gain only affects signal coming from playback of recorded/rendered audio clips. As noted, live input from interface channels and soft synths hits the track after the input gain and is not affected. To control the input level to the track from a soft synth, you can either adjust the output volume of the synth directly via the synth GUI or use MIDI volume to control it.

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msmcleod
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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/16 18:45:33 (permalink)
brundlefly
Audio gain only affects signal coming from playback of recorded/rendered audio clips. As noted, live input from interface channels and soft synths hits the track after the input gain and is not affected. To control the input level to the track from a soft synth, you can either adjust the output volume of the synth directly via the synth GUI or use MIDI volume to control it.


 
It does affect live input from live synths. Here's me playing a chord on an organ, with no recorded clips whilst adjusting audio input gain:
 


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Re: Input gain has makes no difference to instrument tracks? 2018/11/16 21:30:17 (permalink)
Sorry; I only read the first sentence of your previous post, which I thought was just reiterating what Noel said, and which I thought was correct. Makes me wonder if something changed at some point, as I remember it working as documented. But coming from the hardware synth world, originally, I've always used output level of synths to control input level to the track. In general it's not been a concern with soft synths except for the few synths that tend to run too hot right out of the box (e.g. SD3).

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