Helpful ReplyFrontier Alpha Track

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azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/19 12:16:56 (permalink)
Either used as replacement for the original plug-in or not, http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,172.0.html can help you to find what is going on.
 
Try to reproduce the problem with that preset. Once AT stop working normally, visit the Overview Tab and check "Left encoder touched", "Right encoder touched" and other "touched" and "pressed" states. I guess you will find one which is "Yes" (without something is really touched on device). That will explain what you get.
 
There can be several reasons for the problem: some MIDI message is not delivered correctly to the plug-in (software settings problem) or the device is not sending that message (hardware problem).

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#31
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/19 14:10:54 (permalink)
Alexey (post above) is working on a preset for his excellent control surface plugin that will fully replace the original, now hobbled (EQ doesn't work at all) Frontier plugin. I'm testing / troubleshooting it with him and it's getting *very* close at this point. Of course this won't help you if your hardware is dead, which sounds like a possibility, or if the driver is somehow so corrupt that reinstalling doesn't work, but something else to try maybe...
 
EDIT: Oh, I see that's what he's linked to up there...

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#32
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/19 18:01:10 (permalink)
Hi, thanks for this.
I downloaded that EXE that installs the preset.
SO this replaces the original Alpha track driver?  Should I remove the AT original install first?
Or will this create a new device that I could use instead of the AT device?
Please explain.
As Tobias say, It looks like a motor problem but the fact that the touch stripe also died makes me consider a software related issue.
I'll test this "preset" tomorrow, thanks
dd
 

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#33
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/19 18:19:11 (permalink)
Alexey can tell you more than me but as far as I understand it, no, this does not replace the driver, which still needs to be installed and working. This replaces the plugin which you will have installed previously (it gets installed automatically with the driver if memory serves) to make it work in Sonar. This is a different, general purpose controller plugin, much like the Cakewalk Generic Surface or Act Midi Controller plugins, and accessed in the same way - you set an instance of it up under Preferences -> MIDI -> Control Surfaces, and map the Alphatrack's in and out to it (INSTEAD of to the original Alphatrack plugin), and then within the plugin control window (under Sonar's Utilities menu) you go to the Options tab and select Tweak Current Configuration, select Alphatrack from this menu, and then save it to a preset at the top of the control window. All done.
 
I have just tested the latest build and it's working very well, it gives you EQ control back. Again, it will likely not help if you have hardware or driver issues, but as Alexey pointed out it might help you diagnose what's happening - the plugin is quite verbose in terms of telling you (on the Hardware tab) what MIDI commands it's getting from the device. So if it's not showing anything, that means hardware or driver issues for sure.
 
By the way for the plugin to work the Alphatrack driver has to be in 'Native' mode (selectable from the service icon at Windows' lower right)
 
Hope that helps!
post edited by subtlearts - 2015/05/19 18:27:26

tobias tinker 
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#34
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 04:30:52 (permalink)
Well, did the testing using Alexey's AZ controller.
It looks as the motor  is dead, that's why the fader won't update back. If I move the fader on AT Sonar gets it, but if I move Volume on Sonar's console, AT won't update.
When I move the fader it's sluggish, movement is not fluid as before, as something is on the fader's way...
The touch stripe remains dead.
 
The Fader+Auto Write enable works with this controller, that's weird.
 
As for the troubleshooting you suggest Alexey, on Overview Tab I can't see any  "Left encoder touched", "Right encoder touched", just the "Last Midi Event" message seems to change when I touch something on AT.
Thanks.
 
 

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#35
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 04:51:33 (permalink)
Yeah that sounds like ex-hardware to me. Always a sad moment but it's inevitable, mine will die someday too I'm sure... Hopefully not too soon as I'm just getting into using it again now that Alexey's preset is fully working!
 
I remember I had a grounding problem with the motor fader using it with my laptop a while back, that doesn't happen here at my studio but it felt like the fader was 'resisting' when I tried to move it - unless I lifted my feet off the floor while using it, which was kind of funny - maybe something to do with what you're seeing? It was basically working though so maybe not...
 
Alexey, I don't see anything for 'Left encoder touched' any more on the Overview page - I remember in the testing thread on your site I mentioned this and you said the following:
"I have reverted these controls to "SYSTEM" (to avoid too many "Last MIDI Event"s when you Touch+Push+Turn)"
It seems like they would need to be changed to something visible (on the Options tab?) in order to send visual feedback to the Overview page?

tobias tinker 
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#36
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 05:11:41 (permalink)
Yeah, the fader movement problem (fader resisting) disappeared when I plugged AT back to my main PC, it was with my laptop indeed. Didn't try lifting my feet though, that's funny.
I've been reading Alexey's blog posts but I don't find the described behaviour at all here. I gues my hardware has a major problem.
Touching PAN/SEND/EQ etc with his preset does nothing.
 
This:
 
Switch to the "Options" Tab and in the "Tweak current configuration..." drop box select "AlphaTrack".
 
in my case won't work cause I just don't have AlphaTrack on the list, I do have Fader Port, Mackie, etc
The "touch fader+auto) function is dead on AT preset but works on AZ. Actually pressing AUTO switches AUTO-Write on for volume only, so it is not necessary to touch Fader+Auto, but I can't find a way to turn AUTO-Write-ON for everything.
 
Anyway, the main issue (fader not responding to sonar, touch stripe dead) remains.
 
Wish I could find a repair for this pice of hardware, I've been using this AlphaTrack everyday  forever...

D.D.
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#37
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 05:41:41 (permalink)
Hi again.
 
OK if you don't see Alphatrack on the "Options -> Tweak current configuration" list then you're using the 'released' version. The Alphatrack preset has not been moved to the 'Releases' area yet, though I think Alexey will do this very soon - he was waiting on me to confirm that everything was working, which I did last night (there are still a few niggles, but it's perfectly usable as it is, and better than the original in that EQ control is fully functional).
 
Until he moves it to the release area, you need to go to Alexey's download area and go to the 'test versions' area: http://www.azslow.com/index.php?action=downloads;cat=3
 
... download that one, run it, then open Sonar and the plugin control window again, and you should see Alphatrack on the list.
 
It's not quite as simple as the original Frontier plugin, because Alexey's plugin is general-purpose (for any controller) and WAAAAY more powerful and flexible, but with the preset it should just work (or not, if your hardware has indeed gone south).
 
If you want to use it to test the touch input from the encoders, you have to go to the Options tab, select "Left Encoder touched" from the drop-down list under Hardware Control (or Right encoder, or Middle) and then right of that where it says 'System' change that to Rotary and press the Save button beside it. Now go to the Overview tab and it should give you feedback on that event. 
 
'Strip' should already be configured to give touch feedback in the Alphatrack preset, as should the fader, turning the encoders and pressing all buttons. You can use this as a diagnostic tool to see if MIDI commands are coming in from the device for those events. If they are, and the driver is working properly, then Alexey's preset should be able to interpret them correctly.
 
Hope that helps!
 

tobias tinker 
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#38
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 06:04:03 (permalink)
A bit more about diagnostic.
 
First, as already suggested, download test version and select Alphatrack. REMOVE the original plug-in from Control Surfaces List in Sonar properties.
 
You should see a drop box in the Overview (!) Tab. It list many "states", but you are interested in states with "touched".
 
Select "Left encoder touched". You should see "No" near it. Touch the encoder, it should change to "Yes". Release the encoder, it should change back to "No". You will see nothing in the "Last MIDI Events", as already explained the controls are marked as "System". But you should see the state changes.
 
Select "Middle encoder touched" and do the same test (touch, see the state change, release, see the state change).
Do the same for Right encoder, Fader and Strip (one and two fingers).
 
When your motor is not working and "resistant" on changes, you most probably will see no "Fader touched" state changes. May be the whole "touch" functionality of this device is somehow broken.
 
Note that with my plug-in it is possible to tweak the configuration so it will be still partially usable. But not as good as before...

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#39
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 06:09:25 (permalink)
Aha, that's an easier way to do the diagnostic for sure, thanks Alexey! No need to change them out of 'System' mode. I wasn't clear on that, but it's obviously a better way.
 
By the way I'm working on the display pictures / video now...

tobias tinker 
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#40
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 07:52:59 (permalink)
I must be using the wrong version, cause I don't have that on the Overview tab (my options was mistake) and don't have AT on the list, I'll start again and report, THANKS
 

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#41
gswitz
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 08:11:22 (permalink)
I am posting to this thread just do I can find it again. My alpha track stays put away most of the time now that I have a touch screen, but I'm interested in trying to get the EQ stuff working again. I remember that as valuable back in the days of six, I think.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#42
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 08:26:37 (permalink)
The only way you'll be able to get EQ working again is will Alexey's plugin and preset. Frontier's plugin is set to control the old built-in EQ which was the Sonitus, and the new built-in quad-curve EQ does not respond to its controls. Alexey's preset works well and controls EQ (and basically everything else) now.
 
@dede I'm not sure when Alexey will put the Alphatrack preset into the Release download area, for now you need to use the Testing download to see the AT preset...

tobias tinker 
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#43
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 12:30:35 (permalink)
subtlearts
@dede I'm not sure when Alexey will put the Alphatrack preset into the Release download area, for now you need to use the Testing download to see the AT preset...

Released as 0.3r9

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#44
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 16:05:02 (permalink)
Ok, with the test preset I could see what you guys were talking about. The Fader and Stripe send no 'touched' messages at all.
Fader still sends messages when moving, but stripe is dead.
The reason why I can't set Fader to AUTO/WRITE is because the fader won't signal it's being touched. But the other controls, like PAN work ok.
 
 
Alexey:
 
"Note that with my plug-in it is possible to tweak the configuration so it will be still partially usable. But not as good as before..."
 
Don't know what do you suggest to tweak to make this less a killer, cause the main issue is that the fader wont update, so resuming automat. recording is a nightmare producing gaps etc, but please advice if there's something to be done to get the most of this preset.
I'll keep your controller instead of the original, just for the sake of it (testing). I didn't try the EQ but if it is working a s the sonitus EQ worked, that's already a huge improvement, so congrat and thanks for this great job.
 
I'll  get into the documentation to get the most out of this, but first I really need to get the hardware fixed and that looks difficult.
 

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#45
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 18:53:48 (permalink)
dede
Ok, with the test preset I could see what you guys were talking about. The Fader and Stripe send no 'touched' messages at all.

Is motor still working? Check in the Overview tab that "Motor:On", "Fader touched:No", "_TmpMotor:On". Without touching anything, move fader in Sonar.
 
Without working motor, this fader is just normal not motorized, not touch sensitive... Not much I can do: switch to the Logic Tab, move the fader (you will see the Actions list). Select "Direct Linear, Manual Touch" and change (in Action Configuration section, at the bottom) "Direct -> Catch", "Manual touch -> Timeout touch". You can also try "Direct->Instant" with "Linear->Convex". The result will be far from the original, but still better then what you have now.
 
If motor is still working, you will have not touch sensitive motorized fader. I will make special preset for you in this case, since there will be quite some changed. Automation rewriting will not work good (I mean if you have some changes already), but the rest will. For the automation you can then use "pure man" solution, I can define that some Function button is the fader touch, so when you want rewrite, you press the button by one hand and do modifications by other (the way I do this with StudioMix, since its motorized faders and natively not touch sensitive...).

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#46
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 19:20:02 (permalink)
Thanks, I tried these modif. and can't really see any changes.
Overview tab is "Motor:On", "Fader touched:No", "_TmpMotor:On"
It seems that the Motor is gone and that killed the Touch-Sens on Fader and the stripe.
Will chase for someone to repair these (Frontier forum?) even if it's been discontinued for a while.
Cheers

D.D.
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#47
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/20 19:27:10 (permalink)
People!!
Just went through some old posts in the original Frontier blog.
I found a moderator proposing a first simple solution to try on an AT whose Fader was acting funny:
 
shift+stop+f4 (recalibrate)
 
It just worked, it's fully functional again!!!

i can't believe this, at least this misadventure with (so far) happy ending has a bonus: discovering this AZ preset, having the EQ back.
I'm a happy man, thanks you all/
DD
 

D.D.
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#48
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 07:32:11 (permalink)
Hey, that's fantastic news! I would be sad to lose my AT, and I'm happy yours can still serve you a while longer... I'm also glad someone else is benefitting from the hard work that Alexey (and, to a much lesser degree, myself) put in to getting the AZ preset working as well as it does... Enjoy!
 
p.s. if you're finding Alexey's work valuable, on his site there's a 'Flowers for my wife' post in which he speculates that he might have an easier time justifying the ongoing time maintaining the plugin, if some end users buy his wife flowers once in a while. I'm going to drop something in the jar at the end of the month when CD Baby tops up my PayPal account...

tobias tinker 
music is easy: just start with complete silence, and take away the parts you don't like!
tobiastinker.com
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#49
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 18:42:48 (permalink)
subtlearts
p.s. if you're finding Alexey's work valuable, on his site there's a 'Flowers for my wife' post in which he speculates that he might have an easier time justifying the ongoing time maintaining the plugin, if some end users buy his wife flowers once in a while. I'm going to drop something in the jar at the end of the month when CD Baby tops up my PayPal account...




 
+1

D.D.
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#50
gswitz
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 20:47:33 (permalink)
I spent a little time trying to get it working properly, but I didn't succeed too well.
 
I got the AlphaTrack Preset going and I started tweaking the eq, but I kept getting messages about device disconnected etc.
 
I probably spent around 45 minutes trying to get it going. I then tried to flip back to the old AlphaTrack settings and that didn't go so well for me either. I'll try again another day (maybe). :-)
 
I should add that I was grateful for the chance to play with it. I wonder if my issues might have been related to me using USB 2 port rather than 3. Traditionally, I have to use USB 2 with the AlphaTrack and that is what I was using. 
 
Edit: I came back and reinstalled the alphatrack 1.3.0 driver and got everything working properly again.
Using the USB 3.0 port definitely doesn't work for me. I have to hard boot my pc after plugging it in that way.
 
So using the USB 2.0 port and the driver that comes with it, it works ok for me (altering fader volumes, selecting and arming tracks and hitting record/rtz etc.
 
Using the AzCtrl0_3r8b215M, I can slide the fader and move the fader in Sonar, but a moment later, the motorized fader is moving (untouched) and the level of the track fader in Sonar is not being moved.
post edited by gswitz - 2015/05/21 22:12:02

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#51
mudgel
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 22:57:35 (permalink)
I can get the old Alphatrack plugin working (not with plugins of course) but not Alexsy's. It doesn't even recognise my alphatrack.
That's to say that the Alphatrack doesn't respond in any way to Alexsy's plugin.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#52
gswitz
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 23:11:47 (permalink)
Mudgel,
 
You add the AZ Controller and map as usual.
 
Then > Utilities > AZ Controller > Options
Tweak Current Configuration > Choose AlphaTrack.
 
This is the ticket and it does work with the EQ, but the beta version I tried was still a touch buggy. I posted the version number I tried above.
 
It seemed to come disconnected at times. At times the motor moved the AT Fader to a different place than the fader on the selected track.
 
The controls adjusted the values on the EQ slower than the old AT did. Don't forget to push in the fader and rotate for faster pot adjustments of the EQ.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#53
mudgel
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 23:45:34 (permalink)
I am using version 0.3r9b217.
 
The Alphatrack is now responding. Any movement in the screen elements of a plugin are so slow/fine that it is much quicker to use a mouse. is this rate of movement adjustable somehow?
 
Is it able to work with the ProChannel?

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#54
mudgel
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/21 23:56:50 (permalink)
Never mind. I've worked out how to make the encoders move faster and how to get the EQ in the ProChannel working. Thanks.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#55
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/22 03:23:28 (permalink)
gswitz
The controls adjusted the values on the EQ slower than the old AT did. Don't forget to push in the fader and rotate for faster pot adjustments of the EQ.

At the moment, "fast" mode is MIDI, so 1/127 of the range per tick and "fine" mode is 1/1000 of the range per tick. I will think about adding more options.
 
I do not think "Disconnects" can be related to my plug-in, it has no influence on Sonar MIDI settings and for sure not on Windows drivers.
 
But if the Fader is moving to incorrect position, that can be my bug. Please try to find some "pattern" when that happened.
 
The preset was so far tested by Subtlearts only (I do not have the device). So there can be some not yet spotted bugs. Up to you to help eliminate them!

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#56
subtlearts
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/22 05:52:51 (permalink)
I can confirm that the plugin works very well on my device, I've put it through the paces and it's very stable here. There are some subtle differences (in most cases, improvements) from the original plugin which you have to kind of get used to - if I find myself with a bit of extra time I might try to whip up a quick document based on the original user guide that indicates where it's different. But mostly it follows the original pretty closely.
 
The display is not exactly the same (yet) but does give 'live' information about parameters and adjustments for everything important.
 
The Function keys are not mapped by default and in order to map them you need to get a bit deeper into the plugin's logic - basically, you go to the Logic tab, press the button you want to map, and add a logic entry with something from the Command menu (well you can get them to do most anything if you want to get into it, but in terms of straight mapping to a Sonar function, that's where you'll find most of them - a lot of the important ones are in the Menu sub-menu. Yes, it's a menu called Menu.

tobias tinker 
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#57
mudgel
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/22 06:05:40 (permalink)
I've only really spent 30 minutes with it and that included the original troubleshooting to get the plugin working. Now that I have a bit of a better working knowledge of it I'm sure I can figure it out.

It's been ages since I've used the Alphatrack for anything other than transport control.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64,
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Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub.
Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX.
Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor.
Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
#58
azslow3
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/22 06:40:33 (permalink)
subtlearts
The Function keys are not mapped by default

They are mapped to what I could see in the original documentation as "default":
Save (with shift) and Recall (without shift) currently controlled strip. With bus/track automatic switch.
I thing that functionality is really useful for one strip controller, when you want switch back and force between 2 not adjacent strips.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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#59
dede
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Re: Frontier Alpha Track 2015/05/22 06:42:12 (permalink)
Since I got my AT back on track I'm using this AZ preset. It works ok here. Didn't try the EQ that much, but tweaking Sends, Pan and Volume .
Actually I can't see many differences in performance between this preset and the original. I'm just using it now as I always did with the AT standard, my usual workflow (ie: ignoring the EQ) and it works fine.
Once I start using the EQ it'll be a great upgrade from the Frontier original.
Only difference so far: the display information.
This morning for example, I was tweaking a SEND that I needed at -9.6dB to match other tracks' sends, and I realized this AZ won't show decimals, so I went from 8dB to 9dN and then 10d, I couldn't make 9.6 without looking at the screen, that's a drag.
But didn't find any of Mike's original issues. I guess that with a little setup (as easy as with the original)  it works very well.

D.D.
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#60
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