Loptec:
 
Yes I know. The same is true for any effect in the bin as well. I don't think routing to other buses is a good solution either.
I just don't think being able to re-enable any effect after a track’s been frozen is the optimal choice. Most people seem to think just re-enabling is the obvious choice, but I like to have full control over what I’ve done with a clip and be able to go back and forth though the freezing process without risking to lose the sound of the clip because of settings I had on an effect before the freeze..

For me the optimal solution would be, as I said (and I also think would be a great feature), if all settings for pro channel were saved within the frozen wave data so that, when you unfreeze, pro channel’s settings go back to what they were before the freeze. This, I think, would be a nice feature for any effect in the bin as well. When freezing a track, let the information of what effects were used and all the effect’s settings merge with the wave data.

 
This really doesn't make any sense.  Whether a track is frozen or not if you start adjusting EQ, EFX etc, your previous settings are gone unless you've saved them in a preset.
 
I think most would find having to unfreeze a track to simply make an adjustment to EQ or EFX is bit much.
 
Dan

Loptec I think what you mean is the FX is "printed" on the frozen track. Presets are not save as such to a frozen track. They are just applied.

OK I see what you mean.  I hope someone takes a look at the idea.

Or, the settings wouldn’t have to be stored within the wave file.. The important thing would be that sonar remembers the settings pro channel had before the freeze and apply these settings to pro channel again if the track is unfrozen…

 
Isn't this what happens in a freeze anyway?
 
Brian
 

John


Not if you haven't engaged the FX.

Doesn't it seem that we are asking for too much for a freeze? 
Freeze in itself is a "quick" option to bouncing (or it was.) Now freeze appears to have become the defacto bounce to some, and it needs more options because it is not acting like a bounce!
Just an observation.
 
Brian 

Stone House Studios

Or, the settings wouldn’t have to be stored within the wave file.. The important thing would be that sonar remembers the settings pro channel had before the freeze and apply these settings to pro channel again if the track is unfrozen…

 
Isn't this what happens in a freeze anyway?
 
Brian 

Short answer: No it’s not.. 

I’m done trying to explain myself over and over again in this thread. Read my previous messages and hopefully you will understand what I mean. If you still don’t understand after this. ..Well, then I’m sure there are lots of other things in the world you can think about and understand instead..

Loptec

Stone House Studios

Or, the settings wouldn’t have to be stored within the wave file.. The important thing would be that sonar remembers the settings pro channel had before the freeze and apply these settings to pro channel again if the track is unfrozen…

Isn't this what happens in a freeze anyway?

Brian 

Short answer: No it’s not.. 

I’m done trying to explain myself over and over again in this thread. Read my previous messages and hopefully you will understand what I mean. If you still don’t understand after this. ..Well, then I’m sure there are lots of other things in the world you can think about and understand instead..

o loptec..your becoming a normal cakewalk user now...haaaa..you know when your done explaining something its kind of a graduation to becoming part of this forum..for the good the bad..it all..i love this place.

Hi loptec:

I think  saving ProChannel or any fx state in a wave file is where I lose it: To remain non-destructive SONAR saves all its edits in the project file already. Only after a bounce is there a "new" wave file written for the edited audio (whether the edit is a manipulation of the audio or a processing of it by an FX or softsynth).

Now to me that would be the logical place to "write" the current prozen PC state and then reload that into PC when unfrozen.

am I on the right track?

We really need a Quickfix to address this problem!  

codamedia

Good leadership would have reviewed all the requests, taken them in to account ...

 
Kind of hard to do, when the only people making requests were the ones wanting it changed. All they heard was the moaning and complaining that Pro Channel wasn't freezing. They couldn't hear the silence of the people that liked it the way it was. I am not going to blame "poor leadership" on this choice. They simply reacted to the complaints.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you Mike, and agree there should be more options! I think they were pressured with time constraints and had to react quickly. We see it as a bad decision because were on the wrong side of that choice. I'm sure everyone that requested this feature is quite happy with the decision and the "leadership".
 
Goes to show when you try to build something everyone will like - nobody is going to like it!

Agree 100%.

At the same time, I don't let it get in the way.
When I freeze a synth, I copy all the output to new audio tracks and mix/tweak from there.

I know 100 tracks adds up when doubled, but (for me) I really don't see it as that big of a deal.

If I need to go back and tweak a midi track, I just go back, unfreeze, tweak, freeze and drop the new audio into the right track.

I know the way things are is not ideal for everyone, and I'd think that the best answer is probably one of the simple ones as suggested,
like just disabling the prochannel modules when a track is frozen.

Even then, there's the question of what happens to the settings you had in place when the track was frozen,
if you re-enabled prochannel modules and change things.

Hmm ?.
Instead of thinking too hard about that, I'd rather go make some music :-)

Cheers - Cliff

mudgel

Loptec


Yes. I think you’re on the right track with how I’m thinking. :)
In the “new” wave files written for the edited audio there also would be some extra
information written into the wave file. This extra information wouldn’t be anything we can hear.
Instead it would be “hidden” information of the FX’s settings before the freeze
(ex.  ReleaseTime0.4sec, Ratio3:1, Threshold-20db)

When the wave file is unfrozen, this extra information is released and the FXs receive the
information of the settings they had and go back to the state they were in before the freeze.

Edit: Think of it as automation data that is written into the frozen wave file. When unfrozen the automation data is set free tells the fx how to act. :)
 

Wave files are kind of standardized things that I think Cakewalk would be hard pressed to use to store this data. Whereas SONAR's project file already contains all the edit data for all the audio files used in a given project not to mention all the MIDI data and a whole lot of other meta data concerning the settings of various things within a project. SONAR puts it altogether on the fly on playback or when dong a bounce down internally or when exporting audio.
 
SONAR is a non destructive editor, so it is possible to complete a project where the orignally recorded audio file is never changed. It is only if the audio is bounced that any new files are rendered. Old/original files always remain.
 
It should be easy enough for cakewalk to use the project file to store the ProChannel state to be reloaded into a project as required rather than start to muck around with storing a different kind of data into a wav file. Actually if the current state of ProChannel was automatically saved as the default preset on a project being closed, or a track being frozen etc. and just automatically relaods the default preset on reopening of that project or unfreezing, that would save a lot of hassel. In fact that's the way all plugiins are supposed to work when SONAR is closed from what I understand. that shoulld be possible to accompplish when track/s are frozen.

I hear you.
If the preset is saved in prochannel as default after a freeze, in what state would you like prochannel to be after the freeze? I’m guessing you’re happy with it the way it is now? That after a freeze the prochannel gets greyed out?

You see, that what I don’t like. I want to be able to use prochannel after I’ve frozen a track as well, since I want to use prochannel for my final mix (when I’ve frozen most of the tracks).

Do you have a solution for this? Let’s say I’ve used just a little prochannel on a track, just to make it sound ok in itself (Let’s call this the “ok preset”). I’m happy with it, so I freeze it. The prochannel is greyed out.

After some time I’ve recorded all tracks for the song and I want to start the final mix..

Since most of my tracks now are frozen (and the “ok preset” was saved as default in prochannel before it was greyed out) I can’t use prochannel no more and I get frustrated.. :/

To me this isn’t a happy story. I want to use prochannel after the freeze as well for the final mix!

..So let’s say I’m able to activate the prochannel again, then! :) ..Said and done! I activate prochannel after the freeze and start my final mix of the song! :) (the “ok preset” disappears when I start messing around with prochannel)

I’m a happy fellow… until I realize that one of the takes on our track isn’t spot on! I just HAVE to record another take! …And of course, then I have to unfreeze the track.. But if I do, it won’t sound as just before the freeze, since my “ok preset” is long gone! =/
Now then.. 

What to do, what to do?? …
________________________________________

My idea of saving the parameters of the prochannel within the frozen wavedata (it doesn’t HAVE to be stored within the wave data, it can be saved in a small file with the same name as the wavedata!) would solve this. Cuz then you could unfreeze and the “ok preset” save in the frozen wave would load into prochannel  and I would end up exactly where I was before the freeze..

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]

I see, you guys aren't asking for the prochannel modules themselves to be in the user bin but for the representation of the prochannel bin to be available like in the picture from within the user bin. I suppose that would be handy and easy to visualize - though it would be a **** to implement :)
Also inserting arbitrary plugins before the prochannel when its set to PRE would today be hard.

We would no longer need the pre/post fx bin settings as part of prochannel as simply placing it's marker at the top/bottom of the fx bin would solve that...

Now, getting a pluggin between the 3 pc devices would be very versatile, but I'm sure that would be very hard (for now)...

Keni

Does anyone know if this will be fixed and when.Ii have multiple tracks from EZdrummer that I want Pro channel to be available to after I've frozen, so pushing to multiple busses or setting up other audio channels is a pain.
 
Cheers from a non UK summer....again

brundlefly

pagec
pushing to multiple busses or setting up other audio channels is a pain.

How about this alternative:


1. Disable/Bypass any ProChannel modules and Bin FX you don't want "frozen".
2. Split the instrument track if necessary to get access to the audio portion.
3. Bounce the track to itself  - i.e. select the audio track of the MIDI/Audio pair as the destination for the bounce.
4. "Disconnect" the synth in the Synth Rack to silence it and recover the resources.
5. Disable any Prochannel modules and Bin FX left active during the bounce.
6. Enable/Re-enable any Prochannel modules or FX not active during the bounce, and start tweaking.

This is harder to describe than to implement. The biggest bummer is having to split an instrument track to be able to bounce to the audio part of it. You can recombine the MIDI and Audio tracks to save space after the bounce, but then you'll only see the MIDI, and it won't be obvious what you've done unless you modify the track title or use a special background color for bounced MIDI clips or something ("Ice" blue, for example ).

Anyway, it's an option and eliminates having to create more tracks or buses. To "Unfreeze", just delete (or mute) the bounced audio clip, re-connect the synth, and re-enable all FX.

This is exactly what I ended up doing for a recent project. It worked, but it was pretty cumbersome (not to mention error-prone as I had to keep track of what things were on/off, what volume settings were, etc to make sure I didn't "double dip" anything). The thing is -- the fact that this process is so cumbersome and error-prone is *exactly* the reason the freeze feature was added in the first place! Basically what cakewalk has done is make freeze useless if you want to use the Pro Channel for mixdown, so you have to go back to doing it "the old way." 

John


Because CW made the freeze in Sonar very advanced compared to Cubase's it was used from the start in substitute of bounce. It never had this kind of restriction.

All CW needs to do is undo what they did. If people don't realize PC when active will be printed to the track so be it.

Yes... Maybe that's the solution... Make it so that the PC never gets frozen but if the track is frozen the current PC settings (if active) are applied, but with one caveat.... Some kind of "marker" to show that a PC implementation was applied... Status light?

Keni