Helpful ReplyFrustrated, Explanation and apology below.

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wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:16:45 (permalink)
This is one strange bunch of fellows.  
Don, I gave you   double ya sea at double ya sea edgar  dot com (typed address didn't show up on the page)  which is my address and I get mail here every day. 
I got really frustrated, then the one guy tells me my system won't work on Sonar but the Cakewalk website says it supports Windows 8 32 & 64 bit.
I ordered the 64 bit version to be able to add the SDRAM I need to be able to use the system.  
I think from the inexperienced standpoint that you guys assume a lot of things and therefore everything you say is way far over my head sometimes.  
I guess it would probably be like one of you coming to the Steel Guitar Forum that was a new player and feeling overwhelmed but on this side of the coin I would have been glad to talk a new person through learning the instrument and have many times over the years. Remember, not everyone in the music biz is a software engineer.  .
I am sorry I ruffled a few feathers, Don, I'm a bad waiter and after I didn't hear from you the next three days I really got frustrated.  And by the way buddy, I don't text.  I use my phone for a phone to make calls with so no BOGUS email and the phone number is good 620-755-3432.
See ya
#31
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:29:18 (permalink)
Well we are here and listening.  We may not be able to help but we do have a very good track record. If you give us a second chance who knows it may prove useful to you. 
 
One thing to keep in mind and I do think you already know this, this is a peer to peer forum. We are users just like you. What we have to offer is the collectivize wisdom of this forum. That can be almost magical.
 
Though we all started off on the wrong foot there is no need to stay that way. 
 
Let us know what it going wrong or what is troublesome and I know we can sort it out.

Best
John
#32
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:31:33 (permalink)
I appreciate it, 
It looks like I picked the wrong week to stop
drinkin
smokin
taking amphetamines 
 
#33
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:37:35 (permalink)
LOL I know how you feel. Now getting down to business what is the problem?  

Best
John
#34
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:42:26 (permalink)
Stick with it man! You are gonna love Sonar.
 
It works great with Kontakt and the Orange Tree Lap Steel Guitar samples
 
Good Luck!
 
 
 
regards,
mike


#35
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:45:53 (permalink)
I did buy the SWR Mix Clinic from Cakewalk or whatever it is and have been spending the days watching parts of it.  I have no DAW experience other than having 'dog ears'.
 
All I am using Sonar for is to Mix & Master my 10 song project.
I record it to an Alesis HD-24 and then dump it to the PC using my Alesis Fireport.
Of course I record all of the tracks flat
7 drum tracks
fiddle
steel
lead guitar
acoustic guitar 
bass
B3 or piano
lead vocal
second vocal
This is what is on most tracks.
Kind of making notes today on how to 'export' the project to CD once I get that far.
I may be back on later this evening, I was willing to pay someone to show me how to set up my docking views and how to add whatever effects to each instrument and the vocals.  I require very little vocal tuning but would like to know what to use that I can afford other than V-vocal to do that.
Thanks
 
#36
scook
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 17:47:42 (permalink)
You can also contact Cakewalk directly. http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2839291
There phone support is great.
#37
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 18:18:19 (permalink)
My view is that if you watch some one do this stuff it might help or it could hurt. By figuring it out with us to help you will really learn it. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You outlined  some rather simple things that you want to do. Sonar is well placed to do those things. 
 
The pligins that come with X2 are great. If you have X2 producer you also have the Pro Channel. Its a channel strip type plugin that you can configure. EQ is there to begin with. You can add compressors and saturation. You may want to use the console emulation modules. 
 
The problem I see is I don't know just what you are having trouble with. I know DAWs are new to you but that is not enough information.
 
A couple things you need to list is first what bit depth and sample rate are those audio files you "dumped" into X2? Another is your system specs.  
 
I would like to know what you are using to monitor and how you have it all configured.
 
I'm asking for a lot of information but the more we have the better will be our answers.    

Best
John
#38
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 18:21:42 (permalink)
Monitors are 20/20 Event
 
#39
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 18:39:44 (permalink)
First you have to setup your project. You have at least 15 tracks that you will need to output. I strongly recommend using buses with one being your master buss. The master buss is where all tracks and buses goto. It will out to your main outs. These are the actual hardware you are using. 
 
Getting back to the buses. Make a buss for the drums and one or more for the other tracks. You may want to have a vocal buss for example. Then out those tracks to that buss. 
 
Play back your project as is with the setup above. Listen to it find any level problems that are either too loud or too soft. Adjust the fader for that track so it sounds good. (as an aside before I start to mix I pull down all the faders so that none are going to blast me when I hit play)
 
That aside is a good way to begin a mix. Don't throw in plugins unless you know what you want from them. Most mixing is really a matter of adjusting the faders and using EQ properly. You may want to add a compressor here and there especially for the drums. and you may want to the Vocal Strip to your vocal buss. 
 
I could on and on but I am writing in the dark. I don't know enough about your project to just give basic ideas to you. 

Best
John
#40
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 19:50:25 (permalink)
'A couple things you need to list is first what bit depth and sample rate are those audio files you "dumped" into X2? Another is your system specs.'
 
I'll find out that info from the HD 24 and get back to you.
Thanks neighbor 
#41
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 21:22:27 (permalink)
I'll be having a drummer in the booth Wed. night to see what the room sounds like and if I need to tone it down any.  I'll record some tracks with his kit all miked up and then add some acoustic guitar, steel, fiddle and all the rest and send it over to Sonar so I have something to work with.  
One guy on here was saying that it wouldn't work well using my Windows 8 32 bit OS so I ordered the 64 bit to install in a few days when it gets here.  On the Cakewalk website tho it does say that X2 Producer IS compatible with both 32 and 64 bit Windows 8 OS.  This is what I have to work with and this is what I am going to use regardless of what anyone else uses and will make it work for me. :).
Regardless, when I install it I'll add some SDRAM and be fine.  I can see any instance where I'd be using more tan 16 tracks or so. 
 
#42
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 21:37:26 (permalink)
There is no reason X2 32 bits wont perform fine for you. Right now I would concentrate on getting this setup to work. Remember we have used 32 bits for a long time. 
 
Audio is not going to bother you with a need for more RAM. Where you really need the RAM is when you use soft synths especially with sample players. 
 
Now if and when you do get more RAM replace it all and make sure its the exact same type and brand. Hopefully it'll be matched. Don't add similar modules. Replace it all.
 
Now I still don't know what the audio files bit depth and sample rate are. This is important. 

Best
John
#43
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 21:54:36 (permalink)
Would that be maybe 44.1K-48.0K
 
Yes I just found that and it says
HD24 is built exclusively for the purpose of recording music instead of data, resulting in remarkable stability and performance. HD24 enables engineers to record up to 24 tracks of high-resolution 24-bit recording at 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates. 
 
24 bit depth
post edited by wcedgar - 2013/07/29 22:07:05
#44
mmorgan
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 22:11:48 (permalink)
Yes you want to use a bit depth of 24.
 
Since the HD24 can use both 44.1k or 48k sample rates I would set Sonar and your sound card/adaptor so that it uses the same as the settings on your HD24.
 
That said in my experience Sonar is pretty robust about the importation of WAV files with sample rates other than what the current setting is.
 
Regards


Mike

Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
#45
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 22:16:34 (permalink)
Why I guess you are asking its because you need to match the bit depth and sample with the X2 project. Although X2 isn't perturb by mixing bit depths at all. Still I think its better to have everything the same.  BTW You do know that you could, with the right audio card (audio interface) record directly into X2.  After all thats what its for. For now we'll work with how you have things set up. The sample rate is very important. It must match. Be sure what it is and set that in X2 too.
 
How are you getting the audio into X2? Is it an import?

Best
John
#46
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/29 22:33:05 (permalink)
Yes I know that, but I don't want to record into X2.
I like turning knobs and using my analog console.
I use my Alesis Fireport to get it over to the PC and then import it into Sonar.
As far as I'm concerned the best recordings in the world have all come from analog consoles and 2" tape.  
The problem with the digital world is there's no 'personality' anymore.
 
#47
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/30 19:15:05 (permalink)
If there is anyone in the Wichita or mid-KS area I can pay to show me some things to get started I'd sure be up for it.  
Thanks
#48
cclarry
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/30 20:42:09 (permalink)
wcedgar
Yes I know that, but I don't want to record into X2.
I like turning knobs and using my analog console.
I use my Alesis Fireport to get it over to the PC and then import it into Sonar.
As far as I'm concerned the best recordings in the world have all come from analog consoles and 2" tape.  
The problem with the digital world is there's no 'personality' anymore.
 



You do realize that you can record directly into X2 and ADD these characteristics right? 

First, recording into Sonar WILL bring in the characteristics of your console.  Second,
you can add "Tape Saturation" with many different plugins, i.e. Kramer Master Tape, Slate VTM, ToneBoosters ReelBus, etc...
there's a lot of them out there...

If you want the "REEL" analog feel, then you might as well bypass a DAW all together...
And X2 comes with it's "own" Analog Console emulations as well...

There's far more personality, for far less money, in a DAW then in analog...sorry to say...
Analog is great, don't get me wrong...nothing can replace the "TRUE TUBE" saturation and
harmonics of analog gear....but the DAW is getting PRETTY DARN close...


#49
John
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/30 20:45:48 (permalink)
"The problem with the digital world is there's no 'personality' anymore."
 
If you have X2 Producer you have Console emulation that gives you that sort of thing. 
 
Now you may be right about the best recordings were done on analog equipment but that stuff cost into the millions for the best quality gear. The price hasn't gone down either.
 
What we have is nearly as good when you consider the signal to noise ratio as well as virtually no distortion. IM or harmonic nether of which offers anything but obscuring the recorded sound. Compare what you can get with a decent audio interface to a live performance in a good acoustic space and we are completely blessed. 
 
You can add back as much distortion as you like including the sound of a bad vinyl record. Wow and flutter dirt and scratches too. Now if that is acoustic nirvana to you stay with your inexpensive analog gear. To me digital audio has empowered all of us. This is not to put you down but only to point out that there is not comparison between affordable digital and comparable analog gear. What cost hundreds in digital cost many thousands in analog. 
 
       

Best
John
#50
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/30 21:04:12 (permalink)
That's right.
I'm such a hands on person that I need to see someone doing this and then be able to ask why they did what they did a certain way.
 
I really do appreciate some of you wanting to help me get to where I'm going, I'll see if I can find someone in my regional area that uses this stuff and see if I can get some private instruction.
Thanks again
#51
chuckebaby
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/30 21:29:17 (permalink)
wcedgar
That's right.
I'm such a hands on person that I need to see someone doing this and then be able to ask why they did what they did a certain way.
 
I really do appreciate some of you wanting to help me get to where I'm going, I'll see if I can find someone in my regional area that uses this stuff and see if I can get some private instruction.
Thanks again


your best friend is you tube right now.
cakewalk is also having a really great sale on video tutorials.
one is only like 7.99 and that explains all the vst plug ins in sonar.
it might be a little too much but that's okay, take it slow  :)
 
this video is pretty basic, explaining basic midi.
now this might not be what your looking for but youll get an idea on how things work.
I've made a few vids for beginners just starting out because I have been asked the same questions so many times I figured why not just make a tutorial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juIu9Rlt6v8
 
ive learned quite a bit from tuts on you tube.
even some of the ideas of people who have no idea what they're talking about can sometimes inspire you to learn something new from they're mistakes.
IMO, that's learning.
 
 
and if your really serious, hang out here buddy, youll be learning stuff in no time with some of the experts that hang here..
you got some of the best replying right now.
I guess what im saying is, it doesn't matter your knowledge level, you can learn so much just reading and replying, asking questions right here.(and videos)
welcome to the family  :)

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GB
Focusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
   
#52
pianodano
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/31 00:22:27 (permalink)
To the OP,
 
I wish you lived here near the Beach. I would welcome the opportunity to work with you. It appears that you have been around the block a few time also but find these new fangled methods a bit daunting. You probably already know all of this but;
 
The skilled recording engineer is part perfected craft, part art that is developed after many years and 1000's of studio hours of trial and error, experimentation and learning what works and what doesn't.  Regardless of what people say today, you are right that the console and tape imparts it's own special character into the recording. That's part of the reasons why different studios had different sounds and they were chosen by the producers for their sound and sometimes the musicians they had waiting by the phone for work. It is also why developers today spend hundreds of hours modeling those analog circuits trying to create in the digital realm what made gold in the analog and hoping they can capitalize on those sounds. They a getting closer a little bit at the time, year by year.
 
 As an aside, it's also true that part of that sound came from the room, but as the recording art form developed, engineers did every thing they could to eliminate the room sound through close micing.  Some room character was still added and in some cases utilized, as in the famous case of the exact position the mic was placed for Karen Carpenter at A&M beside the control room window to catch those reflections, but mostly the room sound was undesirable and engineers relied of the console, tape bump and outboard hardware to get the sound.
 
That console is really the big part of the magic. It was and still is almost organic. All that iron in the transformers in the input and sometimes output stages. The magic imparted by a particular console was part of what made a studio choose a particular board. It gave what BECAME the trademark sound of that place.
 
The tape recorder also imparted it's sound. There where more hits recorded on a MCI JH24 than probably anything else. It was and still is a huge sound with, in my mind, a glassy shimmer in the high end that's still unobtainable in the digital realm no matter the bit depth, sample rate or how much you pay for convertors. Certainly it was used at Muscle Shoals, Memphis American Sound Studios, and Criteria among others. Hit after hit came off those machines. It was the radio sound we are still trying to achieve.
 
The characteristic openness of and sizzle on top of a vocal recorded with a U47 or 87 is unmistakable  but mostly never even noticed by the average listener. They just know it's great. But it is a large part of what made any recording a great recording. Conversely, a RCA 44bx will make any voice sound absolutely huge, in your face right there, with no shrillness at all and fantastically open and  it's perfect for a song that calls for that sound - and especially for a nasally voice. 
 
There is to this day nothing that I am aware of that can put a vocal just on top and keep it on top like a Universal Audio LA-2a leveling amplifier. It is magic when it does what it does. And a Manley Varimu will glue a mix together it a way that cannot be described - it just does what it does perfectly.
 
Problem is, all that stuff, just as John said, was and still is, very expensive. I am nobody at all for sure but having spent most of a adult life in recording studios  (I am old) and carefully studying, analyzing and listening while doing my music thing, I have seen both sides. Analog is amazing. Digital is amazing and it is getting better all the time. Except for my home, I have also spent most nearly every dollar I have ever earned trying to capture that elusive sound. It sure is a hard road to hoe, to use a old saying.
 
If I were really looking for the character that is added by that well chosen gear in analog the realm while remaining in the digital, I would start by investing in UA plugs. Those folks really care about modeling and they have a unmatched heritage to live up to. I have nearly all their stuff and it is astounding how good it really is. But even with those, I still keep a real UA-LA-2a on a vocal track, a real Symetrix 525 on the stereo drum channels and the list goes on. There are just some thing that hardware does better.
 
For quite sometime I used a Tascam digital mixer with Sonar. I adored the audiophile quality I was obtaining although it had that characteristically  annoying (to me in a minor sense) high end shrillness, but it lacked character. None. What you put in, you got out. So when Malcom Toft announced around 6 or 7 years back that he was going to build a smaller/less expensive  version of the Trident console, I leapt at the opportunity to own one. I can't even begin to think of the astounding records that were made on Tridents. I'll probably never have a hit, but at least I have the sonic character of a hit. Sonar is more than capable of doing it's part  too. My 16 track machine sits idle over it's corner, day after day, synchronizer on, timecode running and all ready to go. But with the sound coming from my personal selection of assets in the studio and out of Sonar, I see no point.
 
I don't know how long it will be before the younger guys will be able to really emulate the sonic character imparted by analog gear, on the records my generation grew up with and loved. I don't know if they will even want it or appreciate it when they hear it. I suspect most average listeners won't. And that is sad. But I do know that today, just like days of old, to purchase and own the hardware stuff is expensive. I feel blessed beyond belief to have such fabulous tools available. I cannot comprehend why young folks are not standing in line to intern and  learn the process. But there is no interest.
 
DAW's have at last made it possible for someone to set in their bedroom and attempt to emulate what just a few years back required dozens of folks to do. Highly skilled people. From Composers, A&R directors, copyist, arrangers,  producers, studio engineers, a select few tested studio musicians  that knew what would work on the radio such as the Swampers, Wrecking Crew, American studio band in Memphis, or the Funk Brother, Memphis Horns, backup singing groups galore, Mix engineers, Mastering engineers, and the list goes on and on.
 
Music recording was an entire industry with thousands of people adding there particular talents to the process. And it was damn expensive.
 
Basically, you can get close to analog if you really dig into Sonar. I know that Cakewalk touts the modern hits made with it so I am sure it is possible today to make music with it that will be accepted and with the "modern" sound. But regardless, it is a steep learning curve. Greg Henderschott, the originator of Cakewalk recognized early on that as the software became more and more complex that it was going be able to do a lot of things some people had no interest in and add increased difficulty in understanding it. He was a very forward thinking person and I miss him.
 
But if you hang in there, you will be pleasantly surprised at how quickly you will pick up tid bits here and there, a sense of comfort will be reached with the software and after a period of time, it will start to come together.
 
Good luck and keep up posted.
post edited by pianodano - 2013/07/31 00:33:13

Best,

Danny

Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
#53
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/31 00:28:45 (permalink)
Thanks much, some of the best tutorials I'm finding are on the X1 and that's a great start.  Don't think I'll ever record through it, just use it to mix and master my stuff before I release it. 
I plan on being too busy playing 'live' dates to get that far into it.
 
Regards
#54
spacealf
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/31 00:41:56 (permalink)
Perhaps should get the equipment correct first.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to this link and if this is the unit you have:
http://www.alesis.com/hd24

"Two hot-swappable media bays provide convenient access to recording drives and allow data backup in minutes. You can edit tracks internally or easily transfer to computer via an Ethernet connection."

24-bit recording at 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates.

"HD24 can be upgraded to HR24XR with the EC2 module. This user-installable option replaces the A/D and D/A converters with the renowned AKM converters used in the acclaimed MasterLink. EC2 improves performance at all sample rates and also expands analog and digital-input compatibility to include 88.2 and 96 kHz sample resolutions."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the website, you start out with a 40gB drive and second bay is empty.
 
We have just been through this with or about this with an older ADAT Alesis tape machine and how to get it into the computer.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Signal-Routing-Question-m2844046.aspx
which I suppose is not really relevant for your machine, since it is 24 bit and you have an Ethernet Connection.
 
I suppose that be the easiest way in (but then I am not familiar with that).
 
Only thing I think I do know, is that if you record in (and you have AD to DA conversion in the machine already) then sending it out over the Ethernet Connection I think will send it out analog, and sending it out through the ADAT connections would keep it digital. Of course sending it out of the ADATs connections and having an interface card in the computer would cost more, but the signal would be AD (analog to digital)(inside your machine) and keep it digital (out through the ADAT connections of your machine) into the computer. If not then through the Ethernet connection I think it would be analog so you would have AD into your unit back to DA out of your machine into the computer which is digital. The only reason I mention this is that if you wanted to end up with it on your HD24 again to record it after working on it in the computer you have two choices. Spend some extra money and make it AD and digital into the computer and back out of the computer in digital to your HD24 in digital but recording the final product on your HD24 to your machine to output perhaps with the analog outs then. Otherwise, once in the computer in analog form, then having a sound card in your computer you can play it on that which is the DA conversion from the digital from the computer.
 
Well, perhaps something to think about. And if having a soundcard in the computer than Sonar has to be set up for that doing the audio test first before doing anything. Next the individual tracks (on which the recording is going to happen) have to be set up for the input of whatever you are going and how you are going to send it into the computer.
 
I wonder if Ethernet Connection keeps the individual tracks separated, maybe someone else knows about that. (or it can be looked up perhaps on the Internet).
 
Maybe you are way ahead of where I am thinking, but then I did not see that mentioned.
 
 

 
 
#55
wcedgar
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/31 00:47:55 (permalink)
I send it to the PC with my Alesis Fireport 1394
Once  I have it to the PC there isn't any reason I'd ever want it back on the HD 24.  
I'm 100% happy with the way I am going this and just use the Sonar to mix and master.  
Thanks
 
#56
gswitz
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Re: New X2 user in Kansas seeks private instruction on learning mixing and mastering 2013/07/31 06:12:06 (permalink)
WC Edgar, I started using Sonar (Cakewalk then) the exact same way you are. I had used another recording system for years and I continued to use that to capture the original recordings. The Tascam 2488 was silent for all intents and purposes and NEVER crashed. :-) I still use it sometimes.
 
Then I would move the wave files into Sonar and Mix them. This was a great way to get introduced to Sonar.
  • It didn't matter how loud my computer was because it wasn't on when I was recording.
  • The Tascam did a better job than my first interface (M-Audio Fast Track Ultra)
  • I was never re-recording or punching in
  • I only needed to learn to mix the tracks, greatly limiting a lot of the complex aspects of Sonar from my field of view. I didn't need Midi. I didn't need Input Echo. Latency didn't matter at all.
  • VST Effects and automation envelopes were the only things in Sonar I used for that first year.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#57
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