Fun with Windows 7 CPU

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itllcometogether
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2010/05/06 20:38:15 (permalink)

Fun with Windows 7 CPU

Greetings all,
 
I could really use some of your expert brainstorming.  Several months ago I upgraded to Windows 7 Pro x64 (from XP x64), and performance in Sonar has suffered.  I have read countless threads and tried many things, but now it's reached a breaking point:  I cannot even playback most projects.
 
Symptoms
There is a constant crackle/popping/static during playback/record.  At times it gets so bad that the song even slows down in the sea of static.  Even with the ASIO buffer size cranked to the max (2,048 samples), there are still occasional pops (albeit MUCH less).
 
At the worst points during playback, the Windows Task Manager never reads above the 50%'s for SonarPDR.exe.  In Sonar, however, the CPU meter (bottom right taskbar) goes up to 100% + "Warning."  The large transport bar, which shows individual core activity, always shows the top core way higher than the others, and often maxed out.
 
I have contacted support at Cakewalk and Echo with no resolutions.  Cakewalk found no significance in the CPU discrepancy, and the rogue core in Sonar's display, but I feel something is going on there. 
 
Additional info
I have the onboard audio card disabled.  While Sonar is running, no other processes show activity besides "dwm.exe".  I did notice a process named "audiodg.exe" and two services, "AudioEndpointBuilder" and "AudioSrv" but killing/stopping them has no effect.  Oh, and switching off Aero did not help either.
Specs
XEON Dual Core 3ghz w/ Hyperthreading ON (it's even worse with HT off)
4 GB RAM
3 hard-drives w/ separate duties (OS, Audio, Samples)
Graphics card:  ATI FireGL 3400 (no Win 7 drivers available, using default drivers--could this be an issue?)
Sonar PE 8.5.3.282
I even upgraded my audio interface hoping that would resolve everything:
Echo Audiofire 8 (latest 5.5.6 driver; going to a TI chipset firewire card)
 
Plea for help
Thanks for reading (if you got this far). I'm happy to provide more details.  All positive suggestions are appreciated!
#1

64 Replies Related Threads

    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 20:51:01 (permalink)

    There is a constant crackle/popping/static during playback/record
    Sounds like it could be an IRQ conflict. Here's some info I wrote on how to detect it and fix it
    http://audio-mastering-mixing.com/FAQ___Q_A.html#36
    As far asyour CPU going thru the roof. Turn off hyper threading and run the DPC checker
    Also try WDM driver mode echo makes good WDm drviers. So try it
     
    http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
    post edited by CJaysMusic - 2010/05/06 20:54:37

    www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
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    #2
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 21:41:57 (permalink)
    Thanks CJ, solid suggestions!  I forgot to mention:
    1) I found no IRQ conflicts.
    2) DPC latency checker stays under the green line, even at peak crackle!  (this is with HT on--crackle gets a lot worse with HT off)

    WDM is a slight improvement, but still not usable.  Echo support told me to only use ASIO.
    #3
    Tom Riggs
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 21:50:09 (permalink)
    Be sure that sonar is set to use multi processors. It in the options>audio settings>advanced tab. Also be sure that the mmcss is on. If you are running anti virus turn it off and if you have not already tried it try right clicking on the sonar icon and select run as administrator. I have also lowered the settings on UAC to the lowest setting. If you have a wireless adapter disable it. 

    The PDC checked CJ mentioned is also a good tool for finding the problem if it is caused by a driver.

    good luck

    i7-3770k OC at 4.5Ghz, asus p8z77-m, 16g g.skill aries 1600 c9 ram, Noctua d-14 cooler, RME HDSPe Raydat, Motu FastLane, Nvidea GTX 980 ti 6G, windows 7 and 8.1 pro x64. Sonar Platinum and x3e currently installed

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    #4
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 22:06:35 (permalink)
    Nice ideas Tom.
     
    Multiprocessing engine and MMCSS are both enabled.
    No wireless adapter. 
    Run as admin (interesting), disabling antivirus (Avast 5), and lowering UAC security had no effect.

    Thank you though, very thoughtful suggestions!
    #5
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 22:30:23 (permalink)
    Before doing anything else, i would run to compusa or another pc oulet store and get a TI FW chipset card for your pc. The one you have may not be good. A nice TI FW card has been know to do wonders, as far as solving issues like crackles and pops and ice cream.....what??? 
    Cj

    www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
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    #6
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 22:40:12 (permalink)
    My current firewire card has a TI chipset.  How would I be sure I'm upgrading?  Any specific brand/model?

    What about upgrading to a newer graphics card?  Could my older ATI card be creating havoc since it's not using ATI drivers?

    Any other ideas on the big CPU discrepency between Sonar and Windows Task Manager?
    #7
    John
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/06 23:14:06 (permalink)
    Yep, you need to get a Vista/Windows 7 graphics card. One with at least 512 MB ram and Win 7 64 bit drivers. Then turn on Aero. 

    Best
    John
    #8
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 13:49:27 (permalink)
    If a new graphics card got all running smoothly again I'd be ecstatic, so it's worth a shot.  I'm just trying not to sink more $$ into the computer (Dell Precision 490) if I truly need to upgrade the whole thing (a lot more $$$).
    #9
    emwhy
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 16:46:09 (permalink)
    A new graphics card could help. And believe it or not Aero is actually a good thing in Windows 7. I was running my Q6600 with Aero off under Win 7 and getting some mild crackling at low latency (2.2 @ 44.1 on an Edirol UA 101). With Aero back on, it runs smooth at those settings because all the graphics are being off-loaded to my NVidia card (9600 series).


    #10
    John
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 16:51:25 (permalink)
    When I say a Vista/Windows 7 capable graphics card it does not need to be an expensive one. I paid $79 for mine. It works great.

    Best
    John
    #11
    Graal
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 20:02:38 (permalink)
    It's the Echo drivers!
    Same here! I am running an Audiofire Pre8 with the 5.5.6 (beta) driver.
    It must be the drivers.
    #12
    Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk]
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 20:46:40 (permalink)
    Also try disabling Windows Core Parking ... http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1861804

    #13
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 22:22:56 (permalink)
    Darn!!! I installed a new graphics card + drivers (nVidia GT 220) and there was zero improvement!
    The core parking didn't apply to me since I'm using a Xeon dual core processor (am I right?).

    Upgrading the Echo driver from 5.5 to 5.5.6, as recommended by Echo support, also made zero difference.

    I'm at a loss.  I thought a 3ghz dual core Xeon is more than ample for Sonar, without getting crazy.   Do I really have to buy a new computer to use Sonar 8.5?

    The computer is older, but still quite powerful.  I suppose I can try a new firewire card?  Any other ideas are welcome.  All have been great so far.
    #14
    John
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/07 23:24:49 (permalink)
    Please list the total settings in options audio. There are 4 tabs the first 3 should be enough info. That is all your settings in those dialogs. I think something is set wrong or as CJ has said an IRQ conflict. This you can check in System Information.

    DPC latency is OK right?

    Best
    John
    #15
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 00:08:28 (permalink)
    Hi John,
    Yes, DPC Latency checker always stays green, no matter how much static/crackle.

    As for my Audio options...I only have three tabs.  I see we can't attach screenshots, so what are some of the settings you are interested in?
    Buffer size = 5.3 msec/256 samples (for now)
    Sample rate = 48000
    Asio reported latencies, total roundtrip =  16.0 msec, 768 samples

    Under "File System"
    Read & Write caching both UNchecked
    Both buffers set to 512

    Driver mode = ASIO
    Use Multiprocessor Engine = checked
    Use MMCSS = checked


    I also found this in Echo's forum:
    http://www.echoaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1749
    Could this be solely an Echo driver issue?  I was unable to roll back to either driver 4.8 or 5.2 (Windows could not find hardware after install).
    #16
    John
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 01:01:26 (permalink)
    I looked at the thread and it maybe a driver/firmware issue. Can you test any other audio device? I suspect that its the driver or firmware.

    Would you say that what they described there is what you get? If you can, try a version that is still 64 bits but is a much older version of the driver. This may mean you will need to reinstall Windows 7. Then load up the older driver. I would back up Windows 7 first.



    Best
    John
    #17
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 01:14:12 (permalink)
    In general, yes, the static and breaking up is what I'm getting.  Users in that Echo thread kept saying that rolling back to the 4.8 driver was working, but I could not get it to recognize my hardware with that driver.

    Reinstalling Windows would surely suck, but that's a way to be sure there is no conflict with other drivers and/or old hardware.

    Perhaps I can try the onboard soundcard to troubleshoot?  I uninstalled it (rather than disabling it), and I don't think it'll handle the 48.8/24 sample/bit rates in my Sonar projects.
    #18
    John
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 01:35:11 (permalink)
    I would try the on board sound chip if I had no other interface to test.

    I want to add its been a pleasure posting to you. You understand things that others would need spelled out and you reply with cogent posts. For this and the fact that you are a forum member I truly hope you can get your system working. 

    This may seem odd but I feel sad that it isn't working.

    Best
    John
    #19
    A1MixMan
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 03:52:43 (permalink)
    For what it's worth, I have an i7 920 with 8 cores and Win7 64 and the cpu meter in Sonar does the same thing as yours. The Win7 cpu meters seem ok, the same as you also. My system runs fine. Other than turning off Aero, I didn't do any Windows tweaks.
     
    You MAY want to try a different graphics card with Win7 64 drivers.
     
    Good luck.
    Have you updated to the latest motherboard bios as well?
    post edited by A1MixMan - 2010/05/08 03:56:28
    #20
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 13:04:50 (permalink)
    Thanks John!  I think you can see I do a lot of legwork before posting my woes.  But I don't want anybody to feel sad on my account

    I was able to try the onboard sound (i.e. "High Definition Audio Device"), and get this:  same issue!  The static/crackle had a different timbre, but symptomatically the same.  This was with the Audiofire disabled and turned off.

    I'm still baffled, but does this mean it's NOT an Echo, NOR firewire issue?  I don't want to dismiss anything entirely, as everything seems intertwined to some degree.  I hope this is finally narrowing down, but I'm unsure of the next steps. I already tried deleting the aud.ini.  Last ditch would be a clean reinstall of Windows, but that's a full day + affair.  And super-last-ditch is to purchase a new computer.

    To get by for now, I've found the WDM drivers behave better than ASIO, although Echo support told me not to use anything but ASIO.  Can't listen to everybody eh?  Also, working in 64-bit Sonar adds another slight improvement in some cases, if I can work around the bit bridge issues.
     
    P.S. Thank you A1MixMan, I had updated my BIOS to the latest available from Dell (which was May 2008), and installing a new graphics card + drivers didn't change anything.
    post edited by itllcometogether - 2010/05/08 13:07:51
    #21
    leapinlizard
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/08 17:53:18 (permalink)
    Wow, this is a real stumper ... this  may be lame, but the only thing I can think of is to check and make sure your CPU model is rated for use with 64-bit operating systems.  That fact that it used to run 64-bit Win XP (and it also runs Win 7 64-bit) seems to indicate that it must be, but I recall that some of the older processors were not 64-bit ready.  It's a long shot, but ...

    "Surf music will never die." -- LeapinLizard, 1963
    "We may never hear surf music again." -- Jimi Hendrix, 1967. 
    #22
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/10 15:49:37 (permalink)
    My computer is 64-bit compatible, but thank you for your input.  All comments in this post have been so on-target and well-thought, thank you all!

    I've gotten 3 BSOD's (blue screen's) over the last couple of days when powering on the Audiofire after booting/waking-up Windows.  I don't know how to read .dmp files, but the blue screens themself reveal echo1394.sys (the Echo driver) as the culprit.  I sent the dmp's to Echo, and hopefully we can resolve this.  I will surely post the findings!
    #23
    lfm
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/10 16:20:09 (permalink)
    Have you tried switching Windows firewire driver back to Legacy driver?

    I got to much cpu consumption with the normal driver.
     
    Legacy driver reduced cpu by 2/3.
     
    In control panel you could try turn Optimize for performance on. This switches off all visual features.
    #24
    panup
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/10 17:46:54 (permalink)
    More things to check...

    - Disable everything in Control Panel / Sounds / Playback & Recording tabs.
    - Disable Sonar / Options / Audio Options /  Share Drivers 1With Other Programs
    - Disable Sonar / Options / Audio Options MMCSS (disabling this works at least with my RME Firefaces)
    - List IRQs here for forum gurus
    - Is Sonar in 48 kHz mode? Are you sure there's no sample rate mismatch?
    - Bios: Plug'n'Play OS on/off if there is such option.
    - Put Firewire card in another slot.
    - Make sure Firewire cable is not bad (RME's advice for Fireface problems)

    -Panu
    #25
    phrygiann
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/11 03:15:02 (permalink)
    has anyone tried increasing the virtual memory to solve this problem?

     Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit; AMD Phenom™ II quad-core processor 820; 8GB DDR3 SDRAM; 3.1GHz oc'd; 1TB hard drive; 1 TB 2nd hdrive, 1 TB usb 3.0 external HD.    Roland Quad-capture, Casio PX-310; senheisser MK-4, Shure SM-58; Senheisser HD 380 pro, krk rokit6. Subaru forester 2012. 
    #26
    Mully
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/11 06:47:02 (permalink)
    +1 for Legacy driver.

    If not using Legacy firewire driver I will get grief EVERY time. Without fail on an otherwise spanking quad core system... and I've built dozens over the journey. NO, I refuse to be labeled a geek alright.

    Also, I do get a noticeably higher increase on my upper CPU bar too... never anything probelematic however and I've got one song up to 45 tracks with plenty of plugs etc.

    Hope you get it sorted but I can only recommend the legacy driver very STRONGLY.

    Cheers.

    ASUS H270, i7-7700, JLM BA & 1290, LA2A Opto4, loads of guff.
    #27
    alree
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/11 07:53:19 (permalink)
    Have you changed the Power Plan to High Performance??

    #28
    twaddle
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/11 08:30:49 (permalink)
    Seth Perlstein from Cakewalk made the suggestion of turning off core parking as this is know 5to be very bad for DAW's with multiple cores.

    Did you try this because it looks as if his post was completely ignored?

    Here's some info and how to turn it off

    http://ultimatecomputers....pic.php?f=7&t=3644

    And here..

    http://forum.cakewalk.com...73&mpage=1#1852473

    Maybe you've tried it already but I missed t somewhere but if not it's got to be cheaper than buying a new graphics card.
    Oh, you already did.
    Cheers
    Steve

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    #29
    itllcometogether
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    Re:Fun with Windows 7 CPU 2010/05/12 13:35:20 (permalink)
    Many more nice recommendations... I believe I've tried em all:

    I did respond to Seth's core parking recommendation.  It is not relevant to my system (dual core Xeon); I had tried it regardless with no improvement.  I used the method of changing registry values from 64 to 0.  I was not comfortable changing undocumented values that have to be found via search, and I've since reverted back.

    Legacy Firewire drivers was hot here, so even though I'd tried that before with no improvement, I did again--with a reboot, to be certain. Alas, no improvement.

    Tried Power plan = High performance...no change

    I did not mess with virtual memory, since I have 4GB physical + another 4GB virtual already (and it does not get used up).

    Panu, many good ideas:
    - There is nothing to disable in Control Panel / Sounds / Playback & Recording tabs (it's all the Audiofire I/O)
    - Sonar option "share drivers" is always disabled
    - I hear MMCSS should be on, but I've tried it off too
    - Sample rates are matched up (48khz)
    - I did move my firewire card to a new slot (it's own IRQ #)
    - I have not changed plug/play in BIOS--any further recommendations here?
    - Is there a way to copy/paste my IRQ list?

    I did a lot of reading and troubleshooting before posting, so I'm sorry that your great ideas seem to go into a black hole.  They are ALL appreciated and spot on!

    Echo was unable to see anything in my crash dmp's, so I had to enable "driver verifier" for echo1394.sys and I'm waiting for the next blue screen to send to them...
    #30
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