GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar

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gswitz
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2014/05/31 12:19:54 (permalink)

GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar

From this thread...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Rapture-puzzles-m2971217.aspx
in January, B Rock says this...
b rock 
One very cool thing that you haven't mentioned in the reported Envelope Follower capability (I don't have a GR-20; just the ancient GR-1).  I'd be all over that one.  It looks like it will transmit a CC18 MIDI message value (under certain conditions) that varys according to guitar amplitude.  A versatile feature just aching to be tapped.  Say, cutoff frequency of a resonant filter?  Technique-controllable synth 'envelopes'?
 
I think if you look at page 29 of the GR-20 manual (and also the MIDI Implementation Chart towards the back), you'll find a lot of the background information that you'll need for some deeper experimentation.

 
I hunted out the old thread today and tried to figure out how to make it work.
Here is a video of me messing around with it...
http://youtu.be/zPOn76R5zd0
 
What's cool here is that the GR20 reads the decay on the strings and that decay envelope can be used to automate parameters in the Synths.
 
I think it's outrageous fun!
 
B Rock, many thanks!!
post edited by gswitz - 2014/06/01 14:31:09

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/05/31 14:03:35 (permalink)
    Nice "follow" through.  Your enthusiasm is infectious, and I know the feeling well.  I do something quite similar with my Lexicon MPX-1; generating envelope-controlled MIDI from the audio input, or triggering its own ADSR envelopes shaped internally.
     
    I noticed that you're using direct MIDI Learn control.  There are some great advantages to that route: easy to implement, single source over multiple controls, visual feedback on the controlled parameters, reverse (as you demonstrated), 2 varieties of high & low limits on the parameter travel.  Plus, it remains locked across all presets and all synth instances until you clear the configuration file or 'MIDI Forget' it.
     
    You've probably figured out that another method uses the MIDI or Modulation Matrices.  Another set of advantages there.  Parameters that are inaccessible through any other routing.  Control over the same parameter on each Element ("All" destinations).  Smoothing over input, 'reversed' or extended parameter depths, and much more.
     
    z3ta+s matrix allows even more configuration options.  Curves, function 'matrix-within-a-matrix', blending with synth LFOs and envelopes, ... the list goes on.  I find envelope control from the guitar to be even more expressive than MIDI keyboard controllers with a full complement of aftertouch, wheels, knobs and such.  There's a goldmine of expressivity there with the GR-20 MIDI output.  Have a blast.
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    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/05/31 16:58:34 (permalink)
    B Rock,
     
    When you say "MIDI or Modulation Matrices" are you meaning like the Synth Control Bar shown in this link?
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X3&language=3&help=Browser.10.html
    in Figure 218. Synth control bar?
     
    I do know about the Mod matrix at the bottom center of the Zeta2 Synth tab (as opposed to FX tab).
    P36 of the Rapture Help file.
     
    This is my biggest struggle...
    The foot pedals for Glide and Hold are also for changing patches depending on a button I push on the guitar.
    I often use the glide and hold foot pedals.
    If I accidentally step and change patches, Rapture stops working.
     
    !!It's taking me forever to post this because I keep stopping and playing for hours!!
     
    I know that there is the Midi Filter plugin and also the
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/help.aspx?hid=0x2015F&prod=SONAR%20X3&lid=3
    I went into this and select None - then checked only NOTE. I stepped on the patch change pedal and Rapture stopped working.
     
    Now, if I set rapture to some unused midi input - like UCX Midi Port 2 ch 16, I can change patches on the GR20 without messing up Rapture.
     
    To fix the problem with Rapture, I have to close out of Rapture and re-open without saving. If I save, I might have to drop Rapture from the project and re-Insert it.
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #3
    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/05/31 17:28:44 (permalink)
    I meant the Rapture or z3ta+2 matrix that's integral to the softsynth itself.  It sounds like you're aware of the z3ta+ one (although the depth of that matrix deserves it's own book).  In Rapture, it's the 3rd of four icons just to the left of the RAPTURE logo on the synth.  It looks like a MIDI jack.  From memory; I don't have the help file handy.
     
    SOURCE would be CC#18 for your envelope follower control.  DESTINATION is your targeted parameter(s).  DEPTH is self-explanatory (although sometimes - like with LFOs - you'll need the modulator enabled / Status:On to affect it).  SMOOTH adds a "curve" to your input to round out the rough spots.
     
    As for your main problem ... I can tell you what I do.  It may or may not help, it costs, but I never have to concern myself with it again.  I filter any errant MIDI messages before they ever reach the computer.
     
    MIDI Solutions Event Processor  MIDI Solutions Event Processor Plus
     
    I use strictly MIDI DIN inputs for the non-keyboard connections, and the EPP is on a MIDI router port.  No USB for the guitar stuff, so that can be problematic in some setups.  The EPP is MIDI-powered, not the easiest thing to program, but once you do, it stays set.  I've developed dozens of useful scripts with it, and these little boxes can do just about anything.  Miniature MIDI toolkits.
     
    That may not be a viable option for you.  I'm sure that there are other ways to pull this off ITB.  I simply never concerned myself with them once I found a foolproof option that I could set-and-forget.
     
    #4
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/05/31 18:44:52 (permalink)
    Hmmm. It's not way out of range. I'll have to save for it, but it should be doable.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51o-IRKx0aY
     
    I made another video and you can see in the video at the end the sound spikes and the RME cuts it off. I'm not sure what the situation was that the sound was going bad... just too loud?

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/05/31 22:29:46 (permalink)
    I didn't get to the 2nd video yet, but I tried a quick experiment after I got back to the studio.  I'm using a MIDI keyboard controller to simulate your GR20 setup, so this may take a little bit of back-and-forth to get it right.
     
    I know that there is the Midi Filter plugin and also the
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/help.aspx?hid=0x2015F&prod=SONAR%20X3&lid=3
    I went into this and select None - then checked only NOTE. I stepped on the patch change pedal and Rapture stopped working.

     
    In a fresh project [X2 currently there], I loaded up an instance of Rapture.  The keyboard was sending MSB/LSB bank changes and program changes.  In the FX Bin of the MIDI track-half, I loaded the MIDI Event Filter (MIDI FX plugin).  Like you, I selected None (the default).  Then, I enabled Controllers (only), to allow simulated CC messages from the GR20 for the envelope follower, modulation, etc.  You may want to enable Wheel messages as well.  I don't believe that to cause any problems, and you'll want it for the GR20 feature set.  Toggle Wheel events on & off during every other test run.
     
    Now, the important part:  I reduced the Controllers range from the default 0-127, down to 1-119.  Throwing all kinds of patch & bank changes at Rapture, I never experienced the "silent treatment".  I still think that it's the CC0 bank change message - transmitted with your patch changes - that's causing the problem here.  I excluded the CC messages from 120-127 for good measure (there are some reasons for that).
     
    If this works for you, then we're good.  If not, report back.  We may have to also exclude CC32 bank changes, scattered RPN/NRPN parameters, and/or sysex messages as well.  I have a few more options, and another MIDI FX freebie in mind: TenCrazy's Track Doorman (untested at this point).  Good luck.
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    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 08:56:50 (permalink)
    Ok, I gave it a good try.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3KFP1D6qgw
     
    The only thing I've found that works also makes the synth make no sound. By this I mean, if I use the Midi Event Filter plugin to exclude non-special events on channels 1-6 then using the batch change button on the GR20 does not cause Rapture to stop working.
     
    I wasn't able to get it so I can play the synth and use the patch change pedal.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #7
    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 11:55:13 (permalink)
    Well, you're trying everything that I would try, including the Event List View.  I'm thinking that the problematic events are getting to Rapture prior to filtering.  That is, the renegade events are still being recorded, but filtered out by the MIDI Event Filter MFX on playback.  The damage is already done.  As I said above, my personal process is filtering by event processing before external MIDI ever reaches the DAW.
     
    Have you tried disabling Patch Changes (and System Exclusive) in Edit -> Preferences -> MIDI ->Playback and Recording ->Record?  That might not do it all, but perhaps in combination with filtering CC0, etc. ???
     
    You mentioned the large bank values in the video.  Here's the official (X2) explanation: Assigning The Bank Select Method.  There are a couple of threads in the Sonar & Instruments forums that I'll have to dig up involving bank change bugs.  That Normal* - 0-bank 0 situation has always given me fits, and it's problematic for z3ta+ bank changes, too.  One of the suspects worth investigating, but I don't believe it to be the root cause here.
     
    I'm at a big disadvantage trying to 'simulate' a GR20 on this end.  I'm close to saying that I'm stumped here, but irritated enough to keep looking for another solution.  And if the workaround becomes too convoluted, then I'll have to give up.  But I have one more wild thought that just may do the trick ...
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    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 13:17:43 (permalink)
    B Rock,
    You've been a tremendous help!
     
    B Rock, Master of Midi
    I'm thinking that the problematic events are getting to Rapture prior to filtering.  That is, the renegade events are still being recorded, but filtered out by the MIDI Event Filter MFX on playback. 

     
    You are right about this. I tested by recording with the filter on and stepping the patch change pedal. After I stopped recording and removed the filter (since it filters channels 1-6 as showing in the video) I was able to play the synth.
     
    Similarly if I play over the clip without the filter on, it stops Midi from working on the Synth.
     
    Here's a link to the midi causing my issue in a groove clip...
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/MidiEventsCausingIssue.mid
     
    B Rock, the great!
    Have you tried disabling Patch Changes (and System Exclusive) in Edit -> Preferences -> MIDI ->Playback and Recording ->Record?  That might not do it all, but perhaps in combination with filtering CC0, etc. ???

     
    I had tried this but not in conjunction with looking at the Event List. The events recorded change when you uncheck Patch Changes in Preferences > Midi > Playback and Recording. Suddenly I could see the Control 0 and Control 32 messages.
     
    Next, I also unchecked Controller in Preferences > Midi Playback and Recording. This does the trick!
     
    !!!!!!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    YAY!!
     
    Thanks!!
     
    And Thanks to Scook too, who first pointed me to unchecking the Patch Changes. I just need to go one step further.
     
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #9
    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 13:19:46 (permalink)
    EDIT:  I guess that I should've refreshed the page before I worked out another solution.  Either way, I'm glad that the problem is solved.  And you don't know *how* glad.  I may have been bugging me as much as it did you.
     
    But I have one more wild thought that just may do the trick ...

     
    And here it is.  Yes, it is a crazy solution.  But I think this will work in your configuartion.
     
    It involves the LoopBe virtual MIDI cable trick and one additional MIDI track.  Scook pointed you to the links
    Here's the routing:
     
    Track 1: VMC (additional) MIDI Track = GR20 Input -> MIDI Event Filter [MIDI FX bin] -> LoopBe MIDI Output
    Track 2: Rapture MIDI Track (half pair) = LoopBe MIDI Input -> Rapture (audio) Synth Output (armed for recording)
    Track 3: Rapture Audio Track (half pair) = Rapture Primary Stereo -> Master
     
    It's the same Rapture pair of tracks.  You're simply inserting a virtual MIDI cable between the GR20 and the normal Rapture input routing.  And you're using an additional MIDI track to house the MIDI Event Filter MFX.
    Here's the concept:
     
    Track 1 will filter out the renegade events before they ever get to Track 2.  The filtered results get transferred to & recorded onto Track 2.  Rapture (on Track 3) never 'sees' the events that are causing it to go silent.
     
    The same concept works for recording Draw Tool automation, live recorded arpeggiator output, MFX transposed notes, echo delay, velocity processing, and other MIDI FX options.  Note that it doesn't work with *all* MIDI FX (some add All Notes Off and other blocking messages).
     
    Effectively, you're using the additional MIDI track for playback, then recording the results (including MFX processing) onto your 'normal' MIDI track.  It may be the option that works for you.  One more note:  Route one track *directly* to the next.  No Omni or None input shortcuts.  There is such a thing as a MIDI feedback loop, and that will bring everything to an immediate halt.  Good luck.
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    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 13:26:06 (permalink)
    Next, I also unchecked Controller in Preferences > Midi Playback and Recording. This does the trick!
     
    !!!!!!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     
    Hmm.  Then you're going to lose modulation, hold, and the CC#18 envelope follower (maybe more).  All or none with continuous controller messages.  Let's see what happens next.
    #11
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 13:50:01 (permalink)
    Ok, took another step forward.
     
    Now that I know it's the Controller events 0 AND 32, I was able to exclude them by using two instances of the Midi Event Filter Plugin...
     

     
    So, I leave Patch Change unchecked in Preferences > Midi > Recording and Playback, but I CHECK Controller. I then filter out the controller messages on the track itself.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #12
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 14:22:42 (permalink)
    Interestingly, without CC 32 Controller, the CC18 doesn't work either.
     
    I wonder if I could route the midi to a generic control surface and use it to control the paramters that way.
     
    I just looked. I don't see where I can assign a CC to a particular. I noticed I can ctrl+click and get to Cell Midi Properties... but I don't know what to do from there...


    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #13
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 14:34:41 (permalink)
    When I uncheck Patch Changes in Preferences > Midi > Recording and Playback, these are the events that get recorded that cause Rapture to stop working.
     
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/MidiEventsExcludingPatchChanges.mid
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #14
    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 14:52:00 (permalink)
    Interestingly, without CC 32 Controller, the CC18 doesn't work either.

    That makes no sense to me.  Oh, well.  Read on.  For that particular problem, we may be able to reroute CC32 to an innocuous message using TenCrazy's CCMap MFX.  i don't know that you'd want to add another layer of ACT complexity at this point.  Not just yet.
     
    You've got a real balancing act going on here.  Walking the tightrope among what Rapture doesn't want to see, what the GR20 transmits by design, and the features that you want to connect between hardware & softsynth.  There are other (very useful) transmitted MIDI messages that we haven't even touched upon yet.
     
    FWIW, I never thought that CC32 is causing any problems, but stick with whatever works.  I know that CC32 can't be MIDI Learned under direct MIDI parameter control.  But it can be used as a Source in Rapture's Modulation Matrix.  The same goes for some other messages (CC120, CC121, etc.).  That implies that Rapture wouldn't clam up upon receipt of them.
     
    The GR20 manual seems equally contradictory.  The MIDI Implementation Chart shows CC0 & CC32 transmitted, but only the MSB [CC0] received.  Elsewhere in the body of the text, it only mentions CC0 for bank changes.  One good thing about Roland manuals is that nearly everything that you need is spelled out in the detailed MIDI Implementation section.
     
    The downside is that you have to speak fluent hexidecimal to understand it.  At least I see where those RPN Pitch Sensitivity messages were coming from.  As it turns out, you may only have to block CC0/CC32 on your GR20 Basic Channel.  Moot point, if you're using Rapture's Multitimbral mode (with a "basic channel" always locked to MIDI Channel 1).
     
    I have a few other things to explore.  Active Sensing messages can cause havoc in some configs; we may have to end up blocking that.  I have to look a little deeper into how the All Notes Off, Omni On/Off messages are sent.  That should use the same procedures as my GR-1.  Gives me an excuse to break it out.
    #15
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 15:39:39 (permalink)
    So, just a recap so we avoid misunderstandings...
     
    1. Uncheck Patch Changes in Properties > Midi > Playback and Recording
    2. MFX to exclude CC#0
    3. MFX to exclude CC#32
     
    These step make it so I can step on the pedal and not get the Silent Treatment from Rapture.
     
    Side Effect: After step 3, CC#18 can no longer be used to control parameters in Rapture.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #16
    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 16:22:00 (permalink)
    1. Uncheck Patch Changes in Properties > Midi > Playback and Recording
    2. MFX to exclude CC#0
    3. MFX to exclude CC#32
     
    These step make it so I can step on the pedal and not get the Silent Treatment from Rapture.
     
    Side Effect: After step 3, CC#18 can no longer be used to control parameters in Rapture.

     
    Odd. This is where we have a disconnect.  Using my MIDI KB GR20 simulation, I get CC18 MIDI learned to control a filter cutoff frequency, and no silent treatment.  My first MFX excludes CC0, and leaves 1-127 highlighted.  Because these are two MFX in series, you have to allow a nearly full range for the next MFX to act upon.
     
    The second MFX blocks/blacks out a narrow range from CC31-CC33; leaving the remainder highlighted to pass.  I also tried it with direct numerical entry:  CC32 entered top & bottom; mostly blacked out with a highlighted sliver.  I had problems with direct numerical entry earlier, but this time it worked.
     
    On an amusing note, I thought at one point that I was getting the "silent treatment".  I drove myself bonkers with various combinations ... until I realized that I had CC18 down, and the filter was nearly choked off.
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    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 16:39:00 (permalink)
    I haven't quit all day.
     
    New news!
     
    Only the first time after you start sonar must you block the CC#32 message. After that you can disable the second MFX and everything works for the rest of the session!

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #18
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 16:40:42 (permalink)
    B Rock, huge thanks for hanging with me through this!

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #19
    b rock
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 18:03:20 (permalink)
    Only the first time after you start sonar must you block the CC#32 message. After that you can disable the second MFX and everything works for the rest of the session!

     
    That shouldn't bother me, but it does.  (Why not plug 'n' play?)  Bottom line is that if you're satisfied, so am I.
     
    Time to enjoy the setup, and make some music.  You may want to work in those Glide / Hold pedal functions later on.  The good news is that I've never seen a Rapture patch that didn't have Bend Dn/Up or Sust - CC64 enabled by default.  We've established that Volume - CC7 is 'hardwired' to the Rapture system.  If you switch over to that pedal transmitting CC4 - Foot Pedal control, you'll have one more control option at your feet.
     
    In the Modulation Matrix, you'll have even more nuances to express from the guitar.  We've discussed the MIDI CC's ad nauseum, but you can use Pitch Bend in a parallel sense here.  With your setup - let's see - Velocity (but not Release Velocity) will work as a Source.  Keyboard (note position) and Keyboard Gate (a parameter toggle switch).  Alternate for every other note that you play.
     
    And that doesn't take all of the Destination options into consideration.  Powerful stuff.  Lots to explore.  Have fun.
    #20
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 22:21:03 (permalink)
    I'm not sure how to switch CC7 to CC4, but I can always midi learn the pedal to parameters I want to control.
     
    I haven't yet tried Velocity or Keyboard or Keyboard Gate. I'm not sure what you mean by "Alternate for every other note that you play".
     
    By way of thanks, B Rock, I recorded a jam.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Lqj6-j05Q
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #21
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 22:53:30 (permalink)
    Cakewalk® Synthesizers: From Presets to Power User, Second Edition
     
    I just found this useful book in Safari Books online and I thought I'd mention it. My work gives me a free subscription. It never occurred to me to look for Cakewalk stuff.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #22
    gswitz
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    Re: GR20 decay envelope controlling synth parameters in Sonar 2014/06/01 23:05:56 (permalink)
    And I just found X3 Power on Safari books!!
     
    SONAR™ X3 Power!
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #23
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