Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 12:53:40
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Just to be clear about what I said regarding a discernable latency. I only hear this when using a plugin amp simulator or whenever I played with an electric drumset using a drum synth. When playing with external sources, latencies lower than ~5 ms are not an issue for me either (i.e. my amp recording direct or mic'ed into Sonar, which would be similar to using a guitar processor). Just wanted to clear those things out  .
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stratcat
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 13:17:18
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ORIGINAL: hockeyjx
I still stand by my earlier comments that only the most trained audiophiles MAY be able to detect a higher-end amp sim, but 99% of people could not correctly identify when an amp sim is being used on a song that is fully mixed. That is my theory!
The key here, I believe, is "on a song that is fully mixed". And that is how all of my recording will end up being heard. I don't do any music that is solo guitar and nothing else. In the final mix, I believe amp simps could fool anyone. Someone had pointed out that the shimmer, excitement, and lack of quick transients were missing. I just can't see any of this being heard in a final mix.... BUT, I must play both sides of the debate here and reiterate that I there is something to be said for inspiration and standing in front of a cranked amp and feeling it. But I believe I can get past that and learn to play with an amp sim. I will do that because it's what I want to do - it fits my needs. Not because it has been declared the best or proper way to record! If you prefer using an amp, ROCK ON!!!!!! I love my DG100 for live use in my band and the shimmer, excitement and quick transients it provides to stimulate my inner-being! And no, it's not a point-to-point hand wired class A tube amp.... it's better!!! ha ha ha ha That's a debate for another day!
Stratcat Sonar PE 6.2.1 P4 2.8c
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stratton
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 14:34:51
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If everything was made out of tubes then we would have lot's of distortion introduced to our music. Thats the reason solid state came about. I think both of these statements are untrue. For example, what do you think of when you think of a clean guitar sound? A Fender Twin, maybe? Clean until the house starts to shake. While it's true that on paper tube amps introduce more harmonic distortion that SS amps, there are lots of audiophile grade tube amps that meet ANYONE's definition of truly clean. Solid state amps were developed more for solutions to heat and maintenance ($$) issues.
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stratton
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 14:42:02
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In the final mix, I believe amp simps could fool anyone. About five years ago, while I was still in the I HATE POD camp, I was aksed by my engineer buddy what the guitar sound was in a tune he sent to me. I guessed blackface Deluxe. It was a POD. I know I don't have the best ears, but dang, was that a wakeup call. It took me another couple of years (and 5 PODS!) for me to make peace with the little box, but I did and my workflow and sound is better for it. Since I have a lot of the actual amps it models, sometimes I'll use the POD to audition amps sounds for a song, like Recto or cranked Marshall? Vox or Fender? So useful in so many ways. I even get keeper tracks out of it.
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Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 17:03:41
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stratton, I think you have missread my post. I was talking about, if ALL gear were tube based, not just guitar amps. Certainly, some intruments benefit from the use of harmonic distortion and some don't. Same as with music, some styles benefit from that distortion while others don't. Back in the analog tape days, recordings made with tube mics, preamps, consoles, etc, all going to tape would introduce a considerable amount of distortion and the resulting sound would be dramatically different. This is the real reason why solid state equipment came about, because we wanted to achieve a cleaner, truer sound to our recordings. The distortion introduced by the analog tape is the reason why we went to digital tape, sames as with analog consoles to digital consoles, etc, etc. The problem is that, like I said before, these new technologies took the warmth out of the recordings since we were missing the character of the distorted sound and so the recording engineers brought it back with the use of analog tube gear (compressors, preamps, mics, etc).
post edited by Jose7822 - 2007/02/15 17:28:05
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chauncey_gardner
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 17:21:36
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http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1604 I have one of these and a slew of amps. If I am trying to get something to tape quickly, the Groove Tubes box gets a hellagood sound quickly. It is also nice when combined with an SM57 mic on the speakers. I have tried Pod, the amp sims in software (amplitube, guitar rig...) and have always gone back to this setup. THe GT is expensive ($999). However, I have tried numerous reactive loads and none of them came close to the GT.
Sonica Dual Core 3.4 GHz, 2GB Ram, 3HDs, UAD1, PoCo Firewire, DIGI 9652, D8B, vintage synths, guitars and more money than talent (though questionable how much of either). XP Home SP2. SPE6.2. Other things of variable interest.
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chauncey_gardner
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 17:24:01
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One other thing, I have found latency to be problematic with things like Guitar Rig. As such, I like to direct monitor when I play. I am not a purist - I will print distortion or effects if the sound is right on the guitar. I like to hear what I am playing when I am playing it.
A good compressor plug and a bit of EQ, plus some reverb possibly can open up the sound better to fit the mix, but I like the sound to be rigt at the outset.
Sonica Dual Core 3.4 GHz, 2GB Ram, 3HDs, UAD1, PoCo Firewire, DIGI 9652, D8B, vintage synths, guitars and more money than talent (though questionable how much of either). XP Home SP2. SPE6.2. Other things of variable interest.
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jweldinger
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 17:40:05
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ORIGINAL: DigiDis
My point is, why do we have to accept that defacto standard? Is the tube mindset actually a limitation? Why don't vocalists amplify their voices with tube based rigs (TBR)? Why do most bassists seem to prefer solid state rigs to TBRs? Why aren't PA systems tube based? Keyboardists don't rely on tubes.
DigiDis, Vocalists do amplify their voices with tubes, only this is done in the preamp stage or in the microphone itself for a hot line level signal to the input stage. Bassists know that the Ampeg SVT series is the de facto standard for bass amplification. It just doesn’t get any better than that. My Marshall has doubled as a keyboard amp many times. It performs equally well for both guitar and keyboards, and anyone with a B-3 uses tubes. The cost of replacement tubes alone makes them a poor choice for PA amps.
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stratton
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 18:53:51
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I think you have missread my post. I was talking about, if ALL gear were tube based, not just guitar amps. Hello Jose, I understood your post. I just disagree with it.  Specifically, that solid state was developed because of a need for cleaner, truer audio, and for that matter, that it sounds cleaner and truer because it's solid state.
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stratton
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 18:56:51
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The cost of replacement tubes alone makes them a poor choice for PA amps. Yeah, and what would a 1000W per side tube amp weigh? How much heat would all those glowing gas bottles put out? 
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Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 19:22:14
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Hello Jose, I understood your post. I just disagree with it.
Specifically, that solid state was developed because of a need for cleaner, truer audio, and for that matter, that it sounds cleaner and truer because it's solid state. I don't know where you're getting your facts from, but I had learned all of this from an intructional video by the Latin Grammy Award-winning engineer, mixer and producer Charles Dye. Can you provide a source of your point of view? Just want to learn more about it, thanks .
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stratton
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 19:51:11
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Hi Jose, this topic is even more well-worn then analog vs. digital but interestingly, the arguments of one vs. the other almost read the same. Mind you, for the sake of this discussion, we're not talking specifically about guitar amps. In that sense we're off topic for this thread and forum. We're talking about cicuitry designed for high fidelity. Console circuitry, and clean power amplifiers. Here's a start. I googled analog vs. solid state amplification and this was one of the ones on top: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/newsletter/147/tubes_vs_trans.html
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 20:08:09
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Whats this topic about...It should be named My way is better than your way, Or this is how i do it, so it must be the best.
Cj
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Rev. Jem
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 20:41:55
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This is the real reason why solid state equipment came about, because we wanted to achieve a cleaner, truer sound to our recordings. Couldn't agree less, mate. I agree with stratton & would add that as with the case of the transition in the '80's from analog to digital synths, it was driven by technology as in: "Ooooh, it's new so it's gotta be good". In as much as it became more practical to take SS rigs out on the road over valves even though the sound changed, it is now more practical to take amp/speaker sims out on the road. Ask Butch Vig. If I had a place where I could actually play the damn thing, I'd snap up a valve amp in a sec but I place a higher value on my partner's sanity. Fact is, we've never had it so good. Celebrate the difference & rejoice, I say. <Riffs off into sunset... & not that widdly-widdly stuff either>
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Rev. Jem
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 20:54:58
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Whats this topic about...It should be named My way is better than your way, Or this is how i do it, so it must be the best. Agreed - the best appraoch will always be to treat an argument as an opportunity to share & understand the views of others in an effort to augment their world view, not to beat people's opinions into submission just so you can say, "I won". Proust always maintained that you can't live a good life without seeing the world through as many eyes as possible & I think it was Peggy Guggenheim who said something like, "There's no such thing as "good taste" or "bad taste" - there's just "taste" ?
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 21:00:12
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Yea Rev. Peoples set-up is a really a personal thing and if you say something is better than their set-up, they take offence and go on the defensive..But i really am enjoying this thread. I learned alot about other peoples set-ups and how they go about recording into sonar..
CJ
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Rev. Jem
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 21:04:14
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StuH
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 21:40:10
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ORIGINAL: hockeyjx
I still stand by my earlier comments that only the most trained audiophiles MAY be able to detect a higher-end amp sim, but 99% of people could not correctly identify when an amp sim is being used on a song that is fully mixed. That is my theory!
I think your theory has merit. I'm a huge fan of modellers (plugins and outboard) and have Guitar Rig 2, DSound Gt Player, Alien Connections Revalver and a Boss GT 8 processor. The average music listener is not going to be able to tell if my guitar track was played with a Fender Telecaster through an alcino neck pickup, through a Vibrolux amp, and miked with Shure SM 57's; or whether I've used preset 53 from Guitar Rig, or preset 100 from Gt Player. It's about the music, doing the best with what you have available, and a willingness to experiment with sound in general; it's not about reproducing to a tee a guitar riff produced by Mutt Lang.
Sonar Platinum Windows 10 Home 12.0 GB RAM Intel Core i7 - 4770 @ 3.40GHz 3.40GHz M-Audio Fast Track Ultra
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 21:47:00
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I suggest that the idea that tube circuits are inherantly distorted or warm has been perpetuated by companies marketing tube toys.
There are lots of great tube amplification circuits that are splendidly clean. Solid state audio circuits were developed for economy of manufacture and profit. Of course solid state had lots of other more pragmatic uses... the audio was just a spin off.
The U.S. Navy still uses tubes in many of their hi powered circuits because they think its misson critical.
By the earlie 1980's Tube gear became difficult to locate and purchase because it was so much more expensive than solid state mass production. Then came the nineties when musical instrument companies found sneaky ways to market low grade tube circuits to an audience that was willing to buy in to the idea that tubes inherantly sound distorted. A few hi-fi companies tried to do it but found out that hi-fi listeners actually demand good circuits. Luckily if you want and can afford real tube musical instrument or hi-fi gear there are more choices than ever... they are just harder to locate than in the past. It's still being made the best way people know how for those who want to experience it firsthand.
Remember when Jimi asked are you experienced? have you ever been experienced?
well... I have. :-)
After a life time of studying and experiencing the sound of both instrument and hi-fi tube amps I have come to understand that the one "truism" regarding tubes is the remarkably fast transient response. You can measure THD in a tube circuit and you can look at slew rates in Solid State or you can just listen to both and hear the difference. A real tube amp is more responsive to any input. It doesn't matter if it's a electric guitar, electric bass, a nice microphone or a recording of a soprano vocalist.
Personally I think the fast transients of tube circuits provide the "cleanest" musical sound (as opposed to a sterile sound) and think the Fender Twin, and Ampeg SVT are fantastic examples of clean musical instrument amps. I also think it's this basic quality of quick response that allows a tube circuit to sound so speacial no matter what gain structure you arrive at.
Any discucssion of inherant distortion should really be focused on the gain structure of the circuit. That's the distortion every one is talking about... you'd be hard pressed to hear the THD in a single tube, FET, or transisitor operating within its design parameters.
Once you have a circuit operating in distortion then you can easily hear differences in how tubes, FETs, or transistors sound when driven hard in stages. People enjoy the sounds of distorted tubes so much so that they emulate them with digital models.
best regards,
mike
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BC76
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 21:50:56
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I don't believe SS technology was invented for music. Rather it was adopted by the music industry. SS was mainly developed for military, all sorts of manufacturing processes, space & areonautics...ect
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Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 22:08:59
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Hi Jose, this topic is even more well-worn then analog vs. digital but interestingly, the arguments of one vs. the other almost read the same.
Mind you, for the sake of this discussion, we're not talking specifically about guitar amps. In that sense we're off topic for this thread and forum. We're talking about cicuitry designed for high fidelity. Console circuitry, and clean power amplifiers.
Here's a start. I googled analog vs. solid state amplification and this was one of the ones on top:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/newsletter/147/tubes_vs_trans.html This is an interesting read indeed, but it doesn't concretely state anything about the beginnings of solid state electronics in music. It's just about different views on tube and solid state technology. Mind you, for the sake of this discussion, we're not talking specifically about guitar amps. In that sense we're off topic for this thread and forum. We're talking about cicuitry designed for high fidelity. Console circuitry, and clean power amplifiers. I understand that, but this discussion came about from a question asked by DigiDis, which I was trying to answer, and it so happens that we have different views on it . I will admit that I'm not very knowledgeable in this area but, to me, I couldn't see why a top recording engineer would give missleading information on this subject. If you want I can open another thread and we can discuss this there since I'm always open to learning new things everyday. In fact, I always try to learn something new everyday, even if it's just one thing. So just let me know if you would like that. Take care.
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Mickster
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 22:10:51
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ORIGINAL: stratton
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/newsletter/147/tubes_vs_trans.html
I stopped reading when I got to this....
Harry: What Robert just said is absolutely logical. Electrons have to travel through matter, and they’re doing electronic jumping, whereas when you have a stream of electrons going through a vacuum, that is entirely continuous. It’s like a waterfall, as opposed to water going through a sieve.
LiquidDAW Home grown P4, 2.4GHZ, 2Gig EMU 1820M Digitech GNX4 GigaStudio Reaktor Various guitars ZTAR (MIDI guitar)
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Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 22:18:33
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I don't believe SS technology was invented for music. Rather it was adopted by the music industry. SS was mainly developed for military, all sorts of manufacturing processes, space & areonautics...ect Ok, I think I'm not communicating properly what I mean when I say what I say. I'm definitely not saying that SS technology came about with music. What I am saying is that SS technology came about in music because engineers wanted a cleaner, truer sound than what they were achieving with tube equipment...very different .
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 22:21:29
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:-) That's it... the holy grail mike edit: I was replying to Mickster above.... Jose you might enjoy giving that link a read... but Mickster has clevelry pointed out that the whole concept can be reduced to that single realization about the vacumn. best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2007/02/15 22:46:06
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Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 22:49:18
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Nevermind  .
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stratton
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 22:50:33
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ORIGINAL: Jose7822
Hi Jose, this topic is even more well-worn then analog vs. digital but interestingly, the arguments of one vs. the other almost read the same.
Mind you, for the sake of this discussion, we're not talking specifically about guitar amps. In that sense we're off topic for this thread and forum. We're talking about cicuitry designed for high fidelity. Console circuitry, and clean power amplifiers.
Here's a start. I googled analog vs. solid state amplification and this was one of the ones on top:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/newsletter/147/tubes_vs_trans.html
This is an interesting read indeed, but it doesn't concretely state anything about the beginnings of solid state electronics in music. It's just about different views on tube and solid state technology.
Mind you, for the sake of this discussion, we're not talking specifically about guitar amps. In that sense we're off topic for this thread and forum. We're talking about cicuitry designed for high fidelity. Console circuitry, and clean power amplifiers.
I understand that, but this discussion came about from a question asked by DigiDis, which I was trying to answer, and it so happens that we have different views on it . I will admit that I'm not very knowledgeable in this area but, to me, I couldn't see why a top recording engineer would give missleading information on this subject. If you want I can open another thread and we can discuss this there since I'm always open to learning new things everyday. In fact, I always try to learn something new everyday, even if it's just one thing. So just let me know if you would like that. Take care.
Well that thread is only a start. You can imagine, there are thousands of articles about SS vs. tubes, which is better, why choose one over the other, why the studios went SS. You seem really interested and I encourage you to investigate further. It would be a mistake to believe one guy's opinion, even mine! For the record (so to speak), I'm saying that properly maintained high end tube equipment sounds every bit as clean as high end SS equipment, though SS equipment would measure as being more clean. The distortion we humans DO hear in clean tube gear is perceived as the fabled tube warmth and dimension, rather than distortion. Further, the move from tubes to SS gear in studios was primarily to dramatically reduce the cost of owning and maintaining equipment with hundreds of tubes in it, and as Rev. Jim added, it was thought to be the next BIG thing. In some cases, it has been the next big thing. Neve, API, SSL, anyone? Still, high end tube gear should not be thought of as more distorted than SS gear. It's too simplistic, and as far as what we can hear, not true. Hope that explains my thinking, Jose.
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rscain
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 23:26:41
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MAN! I just wish I could play well enough to make ANY of this relevent! 
My Tunes On SoundClick AMD FX9350 @4 gHz, 16 gb ram, 240 gb SSD, 2 1Tb SS/Hybrid HDs, 1 Tb Fantom External HD, Windows 10 64 bit, Sonar Platinum 64 bit, Studio One 4 Pro, Harrison Mixbus, Izotope Neutron 2 Advanced and Ozone 8 Advanced, ARC 2, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP, Focusrite Octopre MkII, KRK Rokit 8 monitors, Sennheiser HD 280 pro headphones, MidiMan Oxygen 8, Behringer X-Touch, guitars and stuff
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 23:27:33
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Im sure you do just fine rscain
CJ
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Jose7822
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 23:44:25
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Stratton, I am very interested in this subject, as you have noticed. Even though I understand exactly what you're saying, this mainly applies to today's technology to a certain degree. The reason I say this is because clearly we have improved the sound in both tube and SS gear through the years. But back in the analog tape days, according to Charles Dye, the electrical engineers of the day came about SS technology, IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY (just to clear that up ), as a solution to the inherent distortion that was being added from tube mic all the way to the console into tape. I can't tell you that this is exactly the way it went down since I was definitely not around during that transition so I just go by what I've read. This is why I wanted you to give me some sources of reading material about the beginnings of SS technology in music. Why did we go there? Not why SS is better than tubes. This is just like debating the meaning of life....it goes nowhere (this might be even worse ). I hope you understand what I'm saying. Thanks.
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marcos69
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RE: Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar
2007/02/15 23:57:36
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Well mott, does this answer your original question, or should we expound a little on the topic?
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