spacey
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 08:26:32
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Rain
Then sorry if misunderstood your point. It can happen if something is not absolutely explicit as english isn't my language, so I sometimes miss a few hints.
Though I did get that you also seem to think that none was "better", I may have misunderstood your point in that it left me with a feeling that you thought all discussion on that topic was futile. I see it as an opportunity to share thoughts, tips and tricks.
All's cool Rain. You see an oppertunity to share thoughts, tips and tricks about software sims. I'll try again to share my thoughts.... First I must explain my idea of what "golden ears" is. I've personally only met a few. One was a bass player that had what many referred to as relative pitch. What blew me away was his ability to name changes as he was listening to a tune. ( he was born with it- it wasn't something he learned- he would "tune in" to one single pitch and from there he could call others out) The other guy was a producer/engineer with basic guitar skills. He had this fantastic memory of sound...it's the only way I know to relate...he could listen to a recording and say "that sounds just like _____" ...and he was good. He didn't say it was this or that, he said it sounded like this or that. Now both of those guys to me were "golden ears". When they talked about sound it was at the "tail end" of the process. So if we talk about software what would really be of interest to me is someone with the ability to hear the difference much like "golden ears". Now that would be something like....."they used Line 6, I can tell by _____". If somebody could do that it would mean more to me (most likely) than somebody telling me something like....I use Line 6 because it has this, and when I do this, or when I plug into this ..OR I don't like Line 6 because it has this harsh, digital ....blaw, blaw......you see- they're talking on the front end. It doesn't mean nothing to me unless it's a trait of that software that they can also hear on the "tail end". The whole issue to me about software is that I have to try all of it myself. There is nothing that anybody can tell me "up front" that is going to help me. Now if they can tell - "listen to these recordings-they used ____ I can hear it in any recording because it has this______sound." - that would be on the "tail end" and very pertinent information about that software. Anything other than that is not worth much to me unless they have a great story or funny story or a warning....like- If you buy that...well you're going to need an iLok! It's going to be another 50 bucks if ya didn't know about iLOK. Probably doesn't make sense.....but it's the way I see dealing with software sims....buy all you can and give them a shot......but don't think my tips or tricks is going to help much. It's something you learn to do by doing in my opinion.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 09:27:09
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I really enjoy listening to an amp and a guitar speaker making rock and roll sounds at full volume.
I've never gotten the same thrill while listening to a hi fi speaker or studio monitor. I'm real picky about guitar speakers so... I guess I don't really get the thrill from a P.A. cabinet either... although some old P.A.s do have some of my favorite guitar speakers.
I especially enjoy all the sounds you get to make that have never been transferred to a recording.
Have you ever heard a sound coming from the next block and just instinctively known it was a live band and not a really big stereo?
My feeling is that I want to have fun enjoying that live sound while playing... and if I can get some recorded that's great.
I can't imagine how a guitar player can find listening to a studio monitor or a PA speaker or some bullet proof modern speaker satisfying.
I just bought 3 used 10" Weber alnico speakers that were made expressly for a small company called Tunstegn Amps. They are the closest replica of a 1950's Jensen P10R that Ted could make. When I bought them on ebay the owner contacted me with fears that I might not know how fragile they were. I told him I was glad to buy them. I'm building some cabinets for them and I look forward to getting to hear them distort and groan and pop and flutter first hand. It's gonna be like taking a ride in a time machine.
That's fun for me... and so that's how I continue to play my guitars.
I've got some guitar music on my site that serves as example of stuff I'm interested in. It's a much cruder sound than I often hear on the radio or carefully produced live showcases but it seems very familiar to me because I am accustomed to live music played with abandon.
Anyways, for me the bottom line is that I play the guitar because I really enjoy it... and I really really enjoy it when I'm celebrating some specific characteristic of the combo of an amp and a speaker I am playing.
One thing I share with other players that visit is that I have an affinity for hearing an example of a guitar tone and being able to patch it up. I don't know how that happens... it seems like an an instinct, and I suspect it is one reason that I disregard how complex a modern patch may be and simply react to the visceral attributes.
When a *modern* style player crafts a tone that emphasizes their complete control over the instrument... to me it ends up sounding like a metaphor for a caged animal. I can patch up the sound of a cheetah caged with a few compressors but the results don't give me that edgy thrill I get from simpler patches.
A few months ago I worked at a Molly Hatchet gig... I don't do that sort of work much any more. When I got the call the idea of hearing the real deal guitar tone entered my mind so I joined the crew. I got to hang out with Phil during the guitar sound check... and it was everything I expected. A Strat, two foot pedals and a JCM900 from a back line company. It took about 20 seconds for Bobby to dial up the real deal tone and he just started ripping... and I thought I was having a lot of fun!
After years of exploring fancy patches I started focusing on nothing but the amp and speakers and I find that is really fun. I have a half dozen distortion boxes sitting on the floor by my amps and it's been a long while since I played one for longer than a few minutes.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do it the way I do it.
I'm just trying to relate the idea that I am very much interested in guitar playing being fun.
best regards,
mike
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Starise
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 09:40:09
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Rain
Thanks Danny. :)
It's still all pretty much in the air, as I'm just gathering material and putting songs together, and ultimately, my fiancée will have the last word on the the overall tone of the thing. So I myself am still experimenting will all sort of sounds, and the "heaviest" example she gave me was, to me, Cantrell-esque in essence. I'm not expecting to have to go beyond that amount of drive. And though I mention STP and TCV, we might no end up that "dirty" either.
All I know is that, after an unsatisfying/impersonal first album with top notch session musicians and polished production as dictated by the record company, she wants something a lot more rock, a bit less polished, something that'll sound more like a real rock band than a generic/paid by the hour studio band.
Still, through all those things, the issue remain pretty much the same so I felt like any input the good folks around here could provide could probably be useful.
Too bad I lost an old Dean Markley tube drive I used to have in a move a few years ago. This could indeed have been something I could have tried to maybe warm up the sound up a bit. I guess it'll be one more reason to enjoy my stay in NY - I should be able to find whatever it is that I'll need here.
Thanks again.
Following that you are building a set of tunes based on rock and rock with a female soprano.......she is a soprano right? I'm thinking along the lines of the Transiberian Orchestra. Or maybe your shooting for more of a personal experience with just the vocalist and a guitar based band. I know what you mean about a studio album. I participated in one of those a few years back and it was so mundane I guess is the word. If your fiancee is a strong vocalist and if she is deciding the direction of the music I am assuming( you know what we get for assuming) that it will be centered around her vocal ability. The only context I can put that into with both strong vocals and strong guitar is either metal or Transiberian Orchestra type stuff,which is metal combined with other elements. Otherwise the guitar is secondary or playing along nicely. The GP is still into metal music but I would think that you corner yourself if you only go there if it could be taken in a direction that would have more mass appeal......so in terms of an ideal tone for that,I guess a lot would depend on the music itself and the message conveyed IMHO. In other words I think if it were me, I would get a feel and a vibe before I went crazy about the sound. Maybe you are already way past that point........writing new music,producing it and making everyone happy is a tall order,at least for me it would be. I would love to know how Transiberian gets their guitar tones. When I went to see them they were using wireless and playing next to impossible riffs while running and jumping all over the place....wow.
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 12:12:03
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Starise
Following that you are building a set of tunes based on rock and rock with a female soprano.......she is a soprano right? I'm thinking along the lines of the Transiberian Orchestra. Or maybe your shooting for more of a personal experience with just the vocalist and a guitar based band. I know what you mean about a studio album. I participated in one of those a few years back and it was so mundane I guess is the word.
If your fiancee is a strong vocalist and if she is deciding the direction of the music I am assuming( you know what we get for assuming) that it will be centered around her vocal ability. The only context I can put that into with both strong vocals and strong guitar is either metal or Transiberian Orchestra type stuff,which is metal combined with other elements. Otherwise the guitar is secondary or playing along nicely. The GP is still into metal music but I would think that you corner yourself if you only go there if it could be taken in a direction that would have more mass appeal......so in terms of an ideal tone for that,I guess a lot would depend on the music itself and the message conveyed IMHO. In other words I think if it were me, I would get a feel and a vibe before I went crazy about the sound. Maybe you are already way past that point........writing new music,producing it and making everyone happy is a tall order,at least for me it would be. I would love to know how Transiberian gets their guitar tones. When I went to see them they were using wireless and playing next to impossible riffs while running and jumping all over the place....wow.
Man, glad to find all these new posts this am. :) She is... sort of a phenomenon, to be honest. lol A genuine coloratura soprano and a true rocker. She's as convincing whether she sings classical or Guns N Roses or Janis or symphonic metal. Anything from metal growls to clean operatic lines. Not because she's my girl - I used to think so even before - but she's the most gifted musician I've met in my entire life. She has her metal band already, and her current engagement lets her focus on other aspects of her vocal capacities and technique, so what we want to work on is the rock stuff. She first told me: "Led Zeppelin" with a tiny bit more modern edge. Those solid John Paul Jones bass lines. Big drums. A bit of Hammond. Light and shade to quote Page. That's quite vast in scope and what we both refer to as Zeppelin type of material encompasses many things. But this sort of address the idea of the relation between guitars and vocals - Page and Plant were both at the forefront. Anyway, I know it might seem a bit odd in terms of approach, I guess, but that's the way I've always worked. For the moment I'm gathering material and ideas. But fundamentally, I'm from the "arranger" school of thought - I think that's what I'm good at - creating arrangements in all sort of styles, and as such, my tones are very much an integral part of my approach. In pop and rock, it's not so much what you say but how you say it and the passion behind. It's how you make the song work, how you make those same chords interesting. In that optic, what I'm doing now is basically preparing my palette. Seeing how we both are chameleons, we should be able to come up with something interesting. It is a tall order. She has worked and is working with people who's shoes I could never fill. But for some reason, she likes my music. In the end, I may very well just end up as a "director" for the project - we already have a few top players/friends we want to bring in to cut a few tracks. I'm not even sure I want my guitars in there - there are a couple of cats among our friends who can play better than I do. But in terms of how I want the whole thing to sound and the type of tones we're after, I want to be able to provide a solid direction/indications, not just "make it sound a bit like that guy in that song". Because I want a specific vibe, and I especially want to avoid the generic back up band syndrome, and I have my ideas on how to go about that. So yeah, it's not like I need the ultimate guitar sound out of my rig for tomorrow, and I guess, I could live with a semi-adequate tone for the time being. But I'm always striving to get the best possible results and learning along the way.
post edited by Rain - 2011/08/24 12:15:46
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IK Obi
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 12:35:40
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I can understand that for some people and their playing but for me I'm more than content at what I can get out of AmpliTube. Distortions, cleans, funky sounds all in AmpliTube. I LOVE that and now that you can add a la carter with the Custom Shop I've been even happier at all the new gear models. Its so much easier than going to GC and the other local guitar shops everyday as well as scouring Craigslist and Ebay for the next good deal on a pedal. (Yes I've done that too, been through 100's of pedals, guitars and amps!)
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 12:40:35
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mike_mccue
When a *modern* style player crafts a tone that emphasizes their complete control over the instrument... to me it ends up sounding like a metaphor for a caged animal. I can patch up the sound of a cheetah caged with a few compressors but the results don't give me that edgy thrill I get from simpler patches.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mike. :) It's what it's all about - tones and our perception of them, what they are and should be. I'm with you on that one by the way. When I joined my last band, the guys were warming up on material like Rush, Satriani, and such. Terrific musicians they were, but a bit cold and with a sound that was way too much under control for my taste. The minute I plugged in my old 59 Bassman and joined them, it was like dropping Keith Richards in the middle of a Satriani-Vai-Johnson concert. lol Of course, it's a bit extreme as an image, I could sort of follow through, but the sound of the band as a whole kind of cracked open in an entirely new direction from there on. I like lively guitars, the unpredictable non-linear element. And it suits my own "style", which is 50% inabilities and 50% working around those shortcomings. ;) Of course I'd like to have access to a real rig, but w/ the traveling, hotel rooms and all, it's not really possible. And I guess it's why I'm both struggling and having fun struggling because, for a good part, I may be attempting to do with those amp sims exactly what they weren't designed to do - like getting the sound from the back of a small open-back cabinet - not something someone would normally want to do. Another extreme example, but you get my drift..
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 13:12:56
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spacey
All's cool Rain.
You see an oppertunity to share thoughts, tips and tricks about software sims.
I'll try again to share my thoughts....
First I must explain my idea of what "golden ears" is.
I've personally only met a few.
One was a bass player that had what many referred to as relative pitch. What blew me away was his ability to name changes as he was listening to a tune. ( he was born with it- it wasn't something he learned- he would "tune in" to one single pitch and from there he could call others out)
The other guy was a producer/engineer with basic guitar skills. He had this fantastic memory of sound...it's the only way I know to relate...he could listen to a recording and say "that sounds just like _____" ...and he was good. He didn't say it was this or that, he said it sounded like this or that.
Now both of those guys to me were "golden ears". When they talked about sound it was at the "tail end" of the process.
So if we talk about software what would really be of interest to me is someone with the ability to hear the difference
much like "golden ears".
Now that would be something like....."they used Line 6, I can tell by _____".
If somebody could do that it would mean more to me (most likely) than somebody telling me something like....I use Line 6 because it has this, and when I do this, or when I plug into this ..OR I don't like Line 6 because it has this harsh, digital ....blaw, blaw......you see- they're talking on the front end. It doesn't mean nothing to me unless it's a trait of that software that they can also hear on the "tail end".
The whole issue to me about software is that I have to try all of it myself. There is nothing that anybody can tell me
"up front" that is going to help me. Now if they can tell - "listen to these recordings-they used ____ I can hear it in any recording because it has this______sound." - that would be on the "tail end" and very pertinent information about that software.
Anything other than that is not worth much to me unless they have a great story or funny story or a warning....like- If you buy that...well you're going to need an iLok! It's going to be another 50 bucks if ya didn't know about iLOK.
Probably doesn't make sense.....but it's the way I see dealing with software sims....buy all you can and give them a shot......but don't think my tips or tricks is going to help much. It's something you learn to do by doing in my opinion.
I get your point. Interestingly, there were some examples posted of guys using a POD, and having used one for many years, I thought I could recognize certain particularities that I was used to. The tough part is that, the overall sound is affected not only by the chosen tone, but by the mix, the player himself and all those little things that make sound what it is. I'm sure someone could post an example of guitars processed by, say, Waves GTR, and depending on all those things, I may think I recognize a POD. The words we use to describe something as elusive as tones can also be problematic. Add to that that, as I mentioned, english isn't my language, and we're in for anything but definitive conclusions. I don't think I have those golden ears, and it'd be interesting to see someone not only being able to identify the various devices but also to point them out clearly. For example, to me, the POD seems to sound "isolated", it seems to be dealing with the problematic hi frequencies by emulating a pleasant rolloff, but in the process, it damps them a bit too much - it's too systematic. It can also sound a bit "boxy" which may be a result of trying to replicate that node of tighter frequencies and the density you get from a cab around 200h. But this could probably be replicated, in part at least, by many other things. And sound density is all but an objective notion for which we can all agree upon a definition. It's really tough putting words on it. When I think of a POD, the words that usually come to mind is "horizontally isolated". With Boss and COSM, it sounds "layers and vertically isolated". It so doesn't help. lol Otherwise, the only thing I can tell you is that as far as I'm concerned, they typically have a problem with high frequencies - can be dealt with using EQ (I systematically do) and its most obvious in the context of a mix, as there's something that doesn't seem to blend in until you take it out. For playing, I'll be the first to admit that I rarely even notice it - anyway I have a bunch of high frequencies coming to my ears from the guitar itself and mixing up with what I hear coming out of the speaker. I think some mention that using higher sampling rates pushes those out of sight, but that's not for me.
post edited by Rain - 2011/08/24 13:32:30
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Starise
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 13:31:53
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Sorry if I derailed the tone discussion. I was sort of thinking out loud and asking myself what I would do if it were myself in that situation,trying to come up with something that fits in that situation.
Usually good projects have more than one individual involved and I welcome outside input most of the time.Lately most of my work has been solo and its probably time for a fresh set of ears to help with some of it(God knows it needs some serious help lol).
Arranging skills are the backbone of the tune and thats where all of the skeleton of the thing takes shape,so arranging can't be overstated enough .I think my point with regards to guitar tone was to say that like a 'scratch' vocal track a 'scratch' guitar track might do in a pinch if thats what your in.
My approach to that has always been to work on the main structure and then focus on the particulars as the mix developes, like a rough sketch of a painting,and I have a lot of rough sketches laying around;). I know others do the exact opposite and spend countless hours on a sound before they delve into an arrangement. They might have a pallette of nice sounds down before they ever start to create anything so I guess its whatever floats your boat there. If I try and do that I loose too much focus on what is important and end up at the end of the evening with very little to show for it.
If going for a signature sound that might carry through an entire album,then maybe the stakes are higher to go that direction.
Studio time can be had for cheap around where I live. If I were not happy with the simms I might buy a day and play around with a bunch of those ideas. A lot of those studios are armed to the teeth with guitar gear that might allow you to try what you envision.
For myself and what little guitar I am doing now. The amp simms are hard to beat! If you have tones that you are starting to be happy with,maybe a few more tweaks and you'll be where you want to be. If you have the idea in your head there are probably several good ways to go about accomplishing it.
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 14:29:18
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Starise
Sorry if I derailed the tone discussion. I was sort of thinking out loud and asking myself what I would do if it were myself in that situation,trying to come up with something that fits in that situation.
Usually good projects have more than one individual involved and I welcome outside input most of the time.Lately most of my work has been solo and its probably time for a fresh set of ears to help with some of it(God knows it needs some serious help lol).
Arranging skills are the backbone of the tune and thats where all of the skeleton of the thing takes shape,so arranging can't be overstated enough .I think my point with regards to guitar tone was to say that like a 'scratch' vocal track a 'scratch' guitar track might do in a pinch if thats what your in.
My approach to that has always been to work on the main structure and then focus on the particulars as the mix developes, like a rough sketch of a painting,and I have a lot of rough sketches laying around;). I know others do the exact opposite and spend countless hours on a sound before they delve into an arrangement. They might have a pallette of nice sounds down before they ever start to create anything so I guess its whatever floats your boat there. If I try and do that I loose too much focus on what is important and end up at the end of the evening with very little to show for it.
If going for a signature sound that might carry through an entire album,then maybe the stakes are higher to go that direction.
Studio time can be had for cheap around where I live. If I were not happy with the simms I might buy a day and play around with a bunch of those ideas. A lot of those studios are armed to the teeth with guitar gear that might allow you to try what you envision.
For myself and what little guitar I am doing now. The amp simms are hard to beat! If you have tones that you are starting to be happy with,maybe a few more tweaks and you'll be where you want to be. If you have the idea in your head there are probably several good ways to go about accomplishing it.
All input welcome Starise. I'm pretty good at derailing my own treads (and others). ;) I've always been quite a loner in terms of creation - I don't like being told what to play, or else, I tend NOT to get involved. I want a strong direction, whether I am in charge or someone else is. But if you want to "lead" me, you better know where you want me to be. Just as much, I don't let many people in my, uh, circle of trust. I don't like to act as a dictator, but personal contributions aren't always welcome. So I tend to work alone. Nevertheless, in this case, I'm into something bigger. Those guys we want to bring in I trust. I know what their personality will bring to the project, and we're getting them involved because they fit in. More than a matter of playing note for note, it's a matter of conveying the ideas and sharing a vocabulary - and if I pick someone to nail that "bad" tone, I know we have that same take on it. It's like if you bring, say, Slash in to record a lead. You know what to expect and you don't bring him in to nail fancy Satriani-like sort of lines. Still, I want to have the closest approximation possible worked out in the arrangement before that. I need to know it all works out before, somehow. A lot of those friends happen to work in studios or have their own - plus, the in-laws have a very nice one, located in the coolest spot on earth. Great rooms to track drums and all, good equipment, good mixing room, mountains, fresh air, trees, no neighbors. I'm hoping we'll at least cut some vocal tracks there. A for the sims - it's getting closer. Resting my ears a bit and not listening to that stuff for a while did help. It comes out better than I remembered/expected. The dual bus/cab+room impulses seem to work pretty well. But the more I hear it, the more the idea of integrating a tube somewhere seems to just make sense. Anyway, must get back to it. :)
post edited by Rain - 2011/08/24 14:33:47
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Philip
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 22:56:33
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IK Obi
I can understand that for some people and their playing but for me I'm more than content at what I can get out of AmpliTube. Distortions, cleans, funky sounds all in AmpliTube. I LOVE that and now that you can add a la carter with the Custom Shop I've been even happier at all the new gear models. Its so much easier than going to GC and the other local guitar shops everyday as well as scouring Craigslist and Ebay for the next good deal on a pedal. (Yes I've done that too, been through 100's of pedals, guitars and amps!)
Rain, Off Topic: (Disclaimer: I may be dead wrong ... please forgive me and correct me if I've offended): Sorry to crash your pure and excellent thread. May it continue unbiased and pure! I request IK Obi to stop the IKM advertising on our Sonar forums. He must not demean your local vendors either. IK Obi, please lets not make this another spam incantation by IK Multimedia, whose tech support is as elusive as it gets (do you guys even have a phone #? for us losers ... if so, please share your tech-support phone# ASAP for all of us who need it). Else I'll be forced to report IKM's spam violation of the TOS. And/or pm me and try explaining how to get my IKM ARC's latest version to work on 64-bit Sonar systems as I've desperately emailed to your tech support team a month ago. Hopefully I'm wrong: and IKM does provide sympathetic tech support, phone#s, and/or less spam here ... for us paying customers.
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 23:14:09
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No worries Philip - my thread wouldn't go anywhere w/o you guys. I think there might have been a misunderstanding on my part and then on Obi's side - when he first mentioned he didn't post links earlier, I probably misread and consequently assumed he meant link to tracks he had recorded and used Amplitube on, so I told him to post any link he may want. Quote form Obi: (Links weren't added to not appear to spammy. Recently I started working for IK, my tone decisions were made WAY before I was employed by them) So I'll take at least half the blame for that one I guess.
post edited by Rain - 2011/08/24 23:16:14
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/24 23:31:30
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And the process goes on, and it seems unlikely that I'll find "one" solution that fits for everything.
Had a long session today and did a bunch of tests. Ended up using NI's Guitar Rig + my usual dual busses with impulses. Against all odds, for once, GR seemed to get me closer to what I had in mind.
That being said, listening to the rough mix of the entire track, in context, I doubt anyone would really pick one up as better, that's if they noticed the difference. A bit more "oomph".
Strangely enough, Waves GTR, which tends to be my favorite in terms of not needing much fiddling to sound right doesn't appear to do well with my impulses - at least for the more overdriven tones. So to anyone thinking of buying GTR and to make up for the lack of flexibility and the limited number of cabs and mic positions, I'm not sure I'd recommend. It breaks up but not it a nice way.
Anyway, not to turn this into my blog. Just glad that the stuff got a little better, and I can't wait to share some of that - though, since it's not my material, it may take a while... :s
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IK Obi
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/25 11:24:21
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@philip I wasn't trying to spam in any way, shape or form. Go through my post history on ANY forum you see me on and you will realize I'm not even talking about IK for most of my posts. If you needed any type of help your always free to PM me your support number and I'll look into your ticket. Calling me out when I already stated my tone decisions were made before working for IK isn't the best way to get my attention. You can also talk to us directly on Twitter or Facebook for more immediate help. Sorry to anyone I may have annoyed by participating in this thread.
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Starise
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 11:36:54
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Philip FWIW my ARC downloaded into my x86 folder but I believe it is running in 64 bit. Let me know if I can help there. I have had great results with it.
I know Obi works for IK and I have taken that into consideration. Maybe you view it as advertising and maybe to some extent he is getting the word out. I have never been offended at him plugging IK stuff. No matter what you use the proof of something will always come to the forefront and I have to say thet IK makes some incredible software.
My own comparison of Amplitube 3 and Guitar Rig 4 has me favoring Amplitube for both overall tone and for usability. I would reach that conclusion even if Obi had never shown up here. Guitarists can be a little picky about tone....and I guess that would include me.We all have our own agendas on what that is and are free to look for it anywhere or anyhow we want to.
I am working on two mixes right now in my spare time, but eventually I would like to post the same riff using a variety of different patches and see if you could guess how I got the tones or if they are real tubes or simms. It should probably be someone who noone else knows what they are using because you guys know some of my gear already.
Rain if you get the chance I would be interested in hearing what your sound ended up like with the impulses.
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 12:03:31
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I'm thinking of putting a little something together for reference whenever I have a bit of time - can you believe, it's all I do yet I still don't have enough time. lol
My goal once again is that we share views, discuss things, what we like and don't like, not that anyone should try and prove a point or that this is better than that. But, you know, if I say, I prefer the impulse to the modeled cab, yeah it'd be cool that we can all get to hear the difference - after that, it's a matter of taste, really.
Nevertheless, I'm trying to leave myself a bit of time to take some perspective on it - I've learned not to entirely trust my first impression and to maybe take a step back and let things rest for a while when it comes to plug-ins and sounds. :s
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bayoubill
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 12:34:21
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I used my hot rod deluxe at a club last nite for the first time. I was very pleased with the sound/tone. I used no effects and had the drive low and volume high. I wish I could get that sound into Sonar. I was using my Ibanez Prestige live for the first time also. I normally use my Strat exclusively at gigs but it's in the shop.
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spacey
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 13:09:56
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Rain
My goal once again is that we share views, discuss things, what we like and don't like, not that anyone should try and prove a point or that this is better than that. But, you know, if I say, I prefer the impulse to the modeled cab, yeah it'd be cool that we can all get to hear the difference - after that, it's a matter of taste, really.
Let me ask you a question Rain... If one should listen to you say that you prefer the impulse to the modeled cab (on the front end) then wouldn't the proof that you truley recognized the sound difference be when you heard somebody else using them without you being aware and you being able to tell the difference on the "tail end"? My opinion is that when one can tell the difference on a recording that didn't know what was used until hearing it probably has some excellent ears and information about the differences of those sounds. Someone who can't?....I guess some may be interested in their preferences for whatever reasons. Personally I'd rather hear one tell me about the sonic characteristics on the tail end. Has a lot more weight to me that they know what the hell they're talking about rather than what one may like the sound of..... If that's all this is about...I've had sounds out of every sim I've used that I like......so what? Guess I don't know what it is your going for. Just mark it up as a shared view I reckon.
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Starise
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 13:17:35
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A3 and the fender pack should do it Bill. Or you could mike the amp. Glad you are happy with your setup man! Anything with the logo 'Deluxe' on it must be nice,right?? :-)
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Philip
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 14:10:45
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Starise
Philip FWIW my ARC downloaded into my x86 folder but I believe it is running in 64 bit. Let me know if I can help there. I have had great results with it.
I know Obi works for IK and I have taken that into consideration. Maybe you view it as advertising and maybe to some extent he is getting the word out. I have never been offended at him plugging IK stuff. No matter what you use the proof of something will always come to the forefront and I have to say thet IK makes some incredible software.
My own comparison of Amplitube 3 and Guitar Rig 4 has me favoring Amplitube for both overall tone and for usability. I would reach that conclusion even if Obi had never shown up here. Guitarists can be a little picky about tone....and I guess that would include me.We all have our own agendas on what that is and are free to look for it anywhere or anyhow we want to.
I am working on two mixes right now in my spare time, but eventually I would like to post the same riff using a variety of different patches and see if you could guess how I got the tones or if they are real tubes or simms. It should probably be someone who noone else knows what they are using because you guys know some of my gear already.
Rain if you get the chance I would be interested in hearing what your sound ended up like with the impulses.
Thanks Starise, I wouldn't want to speak evil of anyone; just wanted my friends here to be aware that: 1) You/I are using IKM products that lack sympathetic tech support. IK Obi has failed to provide a public tech support # on this thread as I requested; instead, he merely handwaved the tech support issue, iirc, IMHO. 2) It was totally blatant to me the IK Obi has spammed subconsciously above my thread. Albeit, Rain has interceded and redeemed the event, fwiw. So I stand corrected about the spam. 3) I use my crippled ARC successfully, but stopped using IKM Philharmonic, due to other 64-bit crippled behavior. 4) Understand, 64-bit science is extremely complex; many companies are forced to post-pone, quit, or offer crippled software as Sonar 32-bit systems become yester-year's DAW. Hopefully, IKM will survive the 64-bit conflicts and meet their financial needs. I appreciate IKM's price drops, which makes me all the more forgiving.
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 14:23:18
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spacey
Rain
My goal once again is that we share views, discuss things, what we like and don't like, not that anyone should try and prove a point or that this is better than that. But, you know, if I say, I prefer the impulse to the modeled cab, yeah it'd be cool that we can all get to hear the difference - after that, it's a matter of taste, really.
Let me ask you a question Rain...
If one should listen to you say that you prefer the impulse to the modeled cab (on the front end) then
wouldn't the proof that you truley recognized the sound difference be when you heard somebody else
using them without you being aware and you being able to tell the difference on the "tail end"?
My opinion is that when one can tell the difference on a recording that didn't know what was used until hearing it probably has some excellent ears and information about the differences of those sounds.
Someone who can't?....I guess some may be interested in their preferences for whatever reasons.
Personally I'd rather hear one tell me about the sonic characteristics on the tail end. Has a lot more weight to me
that they know what the hell they're talking about rather than what one may like the sound of.....
If that's all this is about...I've had sounds out of every sim I've used that I like......so what? Guess I don't know what
it is your going for. Just mark it up as a shared view I reckon.
That's part of the conclusion I came to - that not one was better in all circumstances. Some solutions I pick up more often than others as I seem to be able to get them to work. And I think that's the key word right there - getting them to work for you. As I also mentioned, if guys like M. Young from AC/DC (not that I'm a fan) can use Amplitube on a record, maybe they figured out something I haven't. More than just about me or my preferences, which are of little relevance at any rate it's about what do other people use, what's it that they think may be a shortcoming, how do they process that sound to work for them, anyone out there had similar issues handling those higher frequencies but found something that didn't cause them. Danny came in with a pretty solid arguments in favor of a tube at some point in front of the rig. Otherwise, there really isn't a way to "prove" that I like impulses better, unless I put up with a blind listening tests, as you mention and consistently pick the impulse. Considering how subtle the difference can be, I couldn't prove anything that way - I'm the first to recognize it. However, working on a song, you get to "obsess" over details after you notice them. Impulses seem to cause me less trouble. As far as I can tell after testing, impulses tend to have more low end compared to Amplitube - but then again, a huge chunk of those low ends will be cut down in the mix process. They seem to sweeten the high end. But this may very well be a case of me not using AT to it's full potential or doing something wrong - hence why I'm asking how folks use it. In the end, me coming here and stating some irrefutable truth about this exact frequency being unmistakably faulty and this or that sucking would be of little relevance - the truth is people record and mix using just about anything, and it always work for someone somewhere. Personally, I like to hear opinions and examples. Some may say they use X and be happy with me and listening to their stuff, it'll still be obvious that it won't work for me. Some may use Y, which I had completely disregarded and manage to blow me away with their sound. That's what it's all about.
post edited by Rain - 2011/08/26 15:00:39
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 14:31:25
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Incidentally, I bounced a little riff using Amplitube, GTR, GR, and same settings with impulses. I tried to use similar settings as much as possible from one to another, but due to inherent differences (i.e., Waves only has one mic at a time and it's fixed to on or off axis, etc.), they're of course a bit different.
I'll figure out that dropbox thing and try to share later.
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Deisel401rs
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 14:55:26
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The best tone I've achieved thus far is with my Les Paul, Randall MTS20 amp, Shure 57 with a Shure KSM27 (at equal distance), into my 828mkII, straight into Sonar. To me it's all about real tube tone and the push of the speaker. Oh yea, and my Keeley Comp.
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Deisel401rs
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 15:00:25
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oops.double-post
post edited by Deisel401rs - 2011/08/26 15:33:41
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ohgrant
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 15:11:25
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Really cool thread Rain, really great sounding promos guys! I am also experimenting with different tones and recording methods for guitar. I am working on a project that has both amp and virtual amps in it. I don't really have strong feelings about what is better, but I thought it would be a good learning experience to try to record with a mic and amp. This is not a final production, Bapu, will be doing that, but this is a forum collab with Mooch on sax Bitflipper on keys, Jason, Bapu's son, on piano and Bapu on bass. Three rhythm tracks recorded, 2 with my Johnson Millennium one with my Fender champ and modded Tube King pedal. The solo and slide guitar were done with GR4. BTW all guitar tracks were done on my handmade by Michael (Spacey) guitar. I couldn't have got this far on it without Bapu, Danny and ARC Rocker
post edited by ohgrant - 2011/08/27 22:46:55
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RLD
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 15:16:57
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RLD
I used to use a table top POD.
I also have tube amps.
I've gone to recording clean/direct and using Line 6 plugins for all my git tracks.
Convenience is the main reason, but I think they sound great.
Most stuff I do is for publishers/music libraries and I've never once had anyone tell me my guitar sounds don't cut it.
I don't want to get into the whole amps vs sims debate, but most people can't tell the difference, so unless your audience is guitar players it doesn't matter, IMO.
I monitor my sound with the stand alone program, then insert the same patch via the plugin.
I love that fact that its easy to go back to old sessions and have no trouble adding new git tracks.
Here are a few short cues with Line 6 plugins.
Track 1
Track 2
Track 3
Track 4
I forgot to mention in my previous message that I use a GAP 73 after my git and before it enters the PC. I think that adds some transformer mojo. 
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spacey
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 18:17:43
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Rain I guess if knowing what others use will help somebody find their own sound then I guess the only thing I can offer is; Guitar World magazine includes details of equipment that pro guitarists use and their signal chain. October 2011 issue has Tony MacAlpine. Design Philosophy, Control Issues, Favorite piece of gear and Secret Weapon also included. My personal use of equipment changes it seems everytime I sit down to play....and for some strange reason I still sound like me.
post edited by spacey - 2011/08/26 18:57:18
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 19:48:15
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To be honest, I'm not on a quest for tones - however, if somebody around here uses tool x and has some tidbit of info to share, by all mean, they're welcome to share it. Whether it's using compression before the converters or tubes or a certain pre, etc. If it opens new perspective on somebody's old set of tools, all the better.
If not, well, I feel it's still cool to have a guitar-oriented thread where people share their music. I've had some pleasant musical surprises so far.
Of course, under other conditions, I have my own formula to get a tone I dig, involving real amps and tubes and all. But I'm on the road, I don't have access to this stuff. Plus, my needs tend to change quite a bit in terms of sound, whether I'm working on material for my fiancée or for my own stuff.
As far as my intention with this thread, it's all pretty informal - I could have posted this in the CH, but it's gear and technique talk. I'm just curious to hear what others can come up with.
Somehow, it's like when Jimmy Page fools everyone into thinking he used a big cab and a Les Paul for a song when he used, I don't know, a tele and a small 15watts amp. Tips and tricks and all. Fun stuff.
But as for the rest, I'm not expecting this thread to bring a definitive answer in any aspect.
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timidi
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 19:59:52
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well, this thread has sort of infiltrated my mind. In so doing, I was thinking about a technique (only in theory so far).
record a direct or clean signal. clone the track. put a fuzz tone sim on the clone, put a delay behind it 100 percent wet. blend the 2 tracks to suit so the main track is clean, but the delay is distorted.
idunno. just thinking out loud. Think I'll try it later.
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Rain
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/26 20:30:51
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Glad it can inspire some to come up with new ideas - please keep us in the loop.
FYI, I said earlier I was going to try and post examples, but Irene decided that I'd better use my energy elsewhere, preparing for a possible evacuation, so it's likely it'll have to wait a bit more. :s
Sorry 'bout that. But you guys keep the ideas and thoughts coming and/or posting links to your stuff - I do find some time to listen whenever I have a few minutes and it's all appreciated.
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michaelhanson
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Re:Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss
2011/08/27 11:30:10
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RLD, I like the tones you are getting with Line 6, I am guessing you are using POD Farm? I have had much the same experience. I have a great sounding tube amp and love the tone I get out of it. When cranked and mic'd properly, it can't be beat to my ears.
However....I have started using POD Farm quite a bit. The convienence, the fact that I can record when ever I want, at all hours of the night, and change amps and settings at a later date; has made this an incredable tool for song writing. I think the family appreciates not hearing the cranked 50w amp all the time as well.
Funny thing, I have never had so many comments about how good my guitar tone sounds since going POD Farm. Solo'd, I hear the difference, in the subtleties, but almost no one else does, especially surrounded in a mix. The tones have gotten really good. I totally understand Danny's comments about pinch hamonics and tube compression and I agree. But for what I am doing, the simulators, especially POD Farm, has really opened up my possibilities.
I used to run everything through a tube preamp, similar to what you have described with your Pre73, I don't know why I got away from that, I will have to try that again. It may add back in some of the tube characteristics. Thanks for reminding me of that.
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