Guitar Players, let's hear your stuff and discuss

Hey guys, favor to ask. 

In return, well, you get your music heard and you also get to go over the details of what tools you used, how you shaped your tone and all that good stuff we gear addicts and studio cats just love to talk about. ;) 
 
I'd be interested in hearing guitar oriented stuff, more particularly anything that's done w/ amp sims (software that is) - Amplitube, GTR, Guitar Rig, Acme Bar, impulse stuff, whatever it is that you use. Anything from slightly driven to mad distortion.


Basically, I know there's many ways to skin a cat, but I find myself always coming back to similar recipes and I sometimes feel like I'm putting a lot of energy and taking many steps to get the sort of tone I'm after - IOW, in most case, just putting an amp sim on the track and eq'ing/compressing won't cut it, except for tracking, so I find myself jumping through all sorts of crazy hoops afterwards. Maybe I need some sort of perspective. OTOH, I vaguely remember reading a few posts by DD, and if I remember correctly, his methods can also be quite elaborated. 

Anyway, I'd be curious to read how you guys get this or that sim that your using to work for you. For example, I know that many folks use Guitar Rig, but I personally cannot seem to get anything out of it - so hearing what you guys are happy with in the context of a song might help me regain some perspective. So if you feel like sharing, just chime in, post a link to one (or a couple) of your songs for which you think your amp sim did a good job, and go into as much details as you wish to.

I know the Songs forum is full of examples, but I thought it'd be easier to have one thread on that specific subjet. I also know there are other forums dedicated to that type of stuff on the web, but, what can I say - this is my most favorite community.

That's a start. Thanks Guitarhacker! :)

I used a Pod for years, and was actually relatively happy with it. I wouldn't say 100% happy, but it worked, and seemed to require less fiddling to just sit in the mix - mostly a matter of maybe adding a hi pass and maybe pushing the higher frequencies up a bit. 

I'll give that a listen.

My main issue w/ software sim is that, while I find them awesome as a tracking tool, they seem a bit all over the place, so I always feel like I have to go back and re-shape the sound and then eq and compress for the actual mix.

For example, in Amplitube, I systematically put an EQ in the rack to create a light bump around 200H and filter out a very narrow band at around 8500 because there seems to always be a problematic frequency in that area - not just with Amplitube, with pretty much all amp sims I've tried.

Most of the time, I'll end up using impulses somewhere down the line, which seems to take care of 80% of the issues - those seem to have this slight bump at around 200H and the high frequencies seem to rolloff more musically (to my ears). 


Of course those frequencies are all there in amp sims, but it's like they're spread evenly all across the spectrum, whereas impulses seem to accentuate certain specific zones.

Eq'ing alone doesn't seem to work, as it doesn't make the sound more dense. Maybe a multiband would help. Or maybe it's just my perception. Because I know a lot of folks use amp sims and get the results.

These are just ideas I'm trowing out there - I'm sort of struggling with guitar sounds these days, but I don't have all the engineering background, so feel free to share your thoughts

Tim, I'll try and check your stuff tonight. :)
Thanks.

Seriously Rain, None of that stuff matters. It's a guitar. It will sound like what it sounds like. A guitar..
I left overobsessing about the right tone a long time ago. The tone is in your fingers, not the processing. The prcessing may dictate how your fingers respond so that is definately an issue. However, Just dial something in and go for it. After all, it's all about the song anyway. 

timidi


Seriously Rain, None of that stuff matters. It's a guitar. It will sound like what it sounds like. A guitar..
I left overobsessing about the right tone a long time ago. The tone is in your fingers, not the processing. The prcessing may dictate how your fingers respond so that is definately an issue. However, Just dial something in and go for it. After all, it's all about the song anyway. 

That's basically what I'm trying to do - to cut down to it as simply as possible, because, well, what I'm working on is, in theory, only rock n' roll. 


While I'm not necessarily trying to replicate something as raw as, say, the White Stripes, I'm definitely not after modern hyper-processed rock/metal tones either - so there's sort of a paradox in me going to such extent to recreate something that sounds simple. I realize that and that's one of the points of posting this.


My tastes, most of the time are fairly simple - my own favorite rig used to be a combination of a little Marshall and a Bassman 59', a tube drive and a wah. No rocket science. 


But heck, I read that Malcom Young is using Amplitube on a few cuts on the last AC/DC. If that's okay for an old-timer like him, there must be something I'm not doing right. 

EDIT - BTW, just previewed some of your material - there are indeed some tones in there. :)

 I am surprised that you haven't gotten tons of responses to this.....
 
 Guitarists can literally go on and on and on and on and on and on about the "tone". No two of them have the same opinion either. For some of them, I don't think they have really found the holy grail yet but they will know it when they hear it lol.

 I am a realtively new guitarist coming from keyboard roots.......ok lets not mince words here.....I'm a newbee. I love the instrument and I kick myself every day that I picked up a keyboard intead of a guitar first. When I started guitar, I was hooked and ended up with a few real amps, some of them tube. GR4 and Amplitube,the TC Electronic Nova system(this is total analog effects with digital control and a Line 6  HD 500, oh and one of those Boss acoustic simulator thingys,the biggest one they make....Doggonit if a person can't conjure something from that its not the hardware or the software!

 If only the guys back in the 50's had known how complex their simple little tube amps and simple chunks of wood with pick ups on them would become!

 Recording guitar,especially electric guitar is probably worthy of a 500 page book that only 50% of guitarists will agree with and the other 50% will say the book was too expensive. It is an art no doubt. I think rock guitar presents more challanges than recording other styles. There are so many variables when recording guitar in a home studio.

 I can't listen to the track posted yet but I'll give it a listen later. I think that one of the things driving guitarists to look for the holy grail is individuality. No two of them want to sound the same but they all want to sound good.

Thanks for chiming in guys. :) All very much appreciated and I sure hope people keep on contributing to this. 
I'm on my day off today but I'll be back to listen and read later tonight or tomorrow.  Thanks again.

Before Sonar I used a Boss Br-8 for recording. When I moved to a DAW I kept the Boss as a pre-amp/guitar modeller, and stuck with it ever since. I love the Boss COSM effects, and the tones just seem thick and creamy to me, particularly with my Les Paul. I've never been one to record dry and re-amp later, I always get the tone I want going in. If it ends up not working, I re-track with a new tone.

My rockier stuff probably shows that side of things, any of the 4 tracks here;

http://www.soundclick.com...ault.cfm?bandID=756694

Rain, before I post a novel on this subject, can you give me an example of the kind of tone you are looking for? That would really help me to help you hone in on what you may need to do. One of the things I'm obsessive with, is tone chasing. There's never been a tone I couldn't get from the tools I have here...and I've never had a problem getting my own tone. So chances are, whatever tone you're looking for, I can help you come close to it. :)

As for amp sims, to be honest, none of them have ever blown me away other than the ABG stuff. I don't know if you ever heard the demo's I did using Shred or HeadCase, but I can always post a few of them up. Some of them may be too gainy for what you're looking for which is why I'll wait to hear from you before I post up any examples of anything. But the other amp sims to me give me the artifacts that you mentioned in one of your posts up there ^....always kinda scratchy sounding to where you have to mess with removing the high end fizz from them.

As far as my weapons of choice go, I have come up with a few methods that are so close to a mic'd cab, it's rare for me to even mic my cabs anymore because the sound isn't so different that it makes me says "oh, I soo have to mic my cabs...what a difference!" With the right speaker sim or cab emulation as well as a few impulses for room type ambience, I get exactly what I need. Now for me to be totally successful with this, I need a guitar pre-amp that has great quality. 3 of the best ones I have ever used are all old ones, but man do they sound great!

1. Digitech 2101: This is what I use these days. Though this unit failed miserably years ago due to having too many options that people couldn't handle, to me it is one of the most powerful and versatile guitar pre-amps ever made. You have every sound known to man in it as well as various internal routing capabilities and voicings. 12ax7 tubes make it distinct giving you clean tube, distorted tube and saturated tube. It also has transistor voices as well and they are incredible if you like that sort of sound. The cons on this unit, it's not easy to program. You can edit stock presets super easy...but creating your own algorithms is a nightmare that will take a few weeks to get down. But once you nail it, nothing tops this pre-amp. I have a Mesa Tri-Axis here that can't touch it.

The only things that can hang with this pre-amp for distortion are my old Peavey Ultra 120 or my Mesa Dual Rectum Fryer. However, the 2101 gets a tone neither of them can get and the pich harmonics are along the lines of what EVH got on the first few albums. I've never heard anything cop those like the 2101. I use it live and in the studio for just about everything and it has one of the best speaker sim sounds of all time. There has never been a tone I couldn't cop with this thing. From blues, jazz/fusion, rock, and extreme heavy metal, I would probably stop playing if I lost my 2101's that I own. They compliment my playing and style so well, they will remain my number 1 secret weapons. I've copped Stevie Ray, Eddie Van Halen, George Lynch, Steve Stevens (and his ray gun sound) John Petrucci, Disturbed, Eric Gales, David Gilmour, Alan Holdsworth and just about anyone else you wanna throw at me with this pre-amp. Not to mention, this thing has every effect known to man built into it except for a talk box. It has dual discs so the sounds change instantly and morph from one to another without that annoying patch change glitch that sounds like a dead spot.

2. Rocktron Chameleon: The first Chameleon version is the best one. Black rack with green and white writing. I used this for years and to this day it is my back-up pre-amp of choice. Loads of killer distortion sounds and one of the best transistor distortion sounds ever. Instant patch changing, loads of speaker sim options...super easy to use. I'd say it's nearly as good as the 2101 although it's not tube and that tube pre-amp sound is important to me. But it's a close second.

3. Johnson J-Station: Remember these old things? I plugged into one of these and instantly got one of the best transistor sounds ever in a matter of seconds. Good onboard effects, nice tone voicings....healthy drive settings.

4. Another pedal that a student brought over here that really blew me away was the Roctron Utopia G100. http://www.rocktron.com/products/floorprocessors/utopiag100/

Listen to the presets if you scroll down a little. This little thing really sounded killer. Sound 5 "Rec-Fied" blew my doors off because it sounded like my main sound I use on my 2101. But the rest of the things this thing did was cool too. It's warm and quite convincing....and cheap!

So give me some sounds you may be looking for and I'll see what I can do for you. I have a few things I can add to further enhancing your amp sim situation as well. I'm not a fan of the POD believe it or not...it just doesn't do anything for me. I've tried all versions of the thing and though it's cool, it's not a sound I could see myself using. I do love and use the bass pod quite a bit though these days. Hope to hear from you soon. :)

-Danny

I've never found an amp sim I liked. The best live sound I ever had was playing through one of the first Line 6 Pods into the power amp-in of my Dean Markley CD-40 combo. Sure wish I had a way to re-create that sound. Recording-wise most of my stuff was done with the Pod or a Digitech RP-1. That was a cool Pedalboard/Preamp/FX device. Right now I'm experimenting with using my Pod and a Digitech RP-350 layered together.

I used to use a table top POD.
I also have tube amps.
I've gone to recording clean/direct and using Line 6 plugins for all my git tracks.
Convenience is the main reason, but I think they sound great.
Most stuff I do is for publishers/music libraries and I've never once had anyone tell me my guitar sounds don't cut it.
I don't want to get into the whole amps vs sims debate, but most people can't tell the difference, so unless your audience is guitar players it doesn't matter, IMO.


I monitor my sound with the stand alone program, then insert the same patch via the plugin.
I love that fact that its easy to go back to old sessions and have no trouble adding new git tracks.
Here are a few short cues with Line 6 plugins.



Track 1 
Track 2
Track 3
Track 4

I've found it too easy to fiddle with FX until I kill the project. 
For my last project, I recorded direct from my guitar to my Boss-G8 pedalboard, to my PC.  I spent a lot of time tweaking 4 or 5 sounds that I'll use most.  Then have a "B version" where I've simply removed Reverb or Delay.  I'll rehearse with the A version, record with the B, then add the Reverb/delay in the FX bin of the recorded track (as these should change with the mix).

I'll EQ and compress afterwards, but again that's only when I have to slightly adjust the track to fit the mix.  In the last dozen songs, I haven't had a guitar sound that was awkward enough to need to be re-recorded with the outboard gear.  I like the early comittment for the sound, it helps to keep me on track.

On the 2nd-last project I did, I shaped a half-dozen sounds in Guitar Rig, recorded dry guitar, applied the FX and then followed my current plan.  Again, i tweaked the GR sounds forever, getting them JUST right.

G, ya see what he talks about in that vid about the little black box? This is the missing link for amp sims. If you don't have something like this, all guitar amp sims will be lacking. I've managed to get around this by using direct boxes with a slight compressor or a bit of coloration to compensate. One of the best methods I've come up with is to use my 2101 in bypass mode using the XLR outs with a hardware compressor directly on the channel. I've also had good results using a direct box with a Boss Compressor Sustainer with the gain all the way off, the level as hot as I could make it without audible hiss. A Tube Screamer can do well in that position also. Gain all the way off, level all the way up...tone control to taste. But I always run a little compressor in line to keep the signal nice and consistent. Nothing major..1:5 ratio no more than -10dB threshold...it works incredibly well.

I have that Waves pack here actually. It's a pretty cool suite...however, for insane rock/metal, it falls way short. For mild drive, blues, cleans, jazz, it's a great plug suite. Not to sound biased, but my heart still belongs to the ABG stuff as I just feel it has everything anyone could ever want out of a software amp. :)

-Danny

I am working on a project now with a guy that has been a diehard Tele and Twin guy his whole life. We cut some tracks with his rig. I split his signal with a direct box and got just the dry signal straight off of the Tele. After a few tracks were cut I introduced him to GR3 and 4, Amplitube 3, and Shred from Acme Bar Gig. We went back and forth between his real twin and the sims. He finally admitted that Shred with the Quarter head set for clean and the cab simulator blew his Twin tone away. Now, he won't use anything in the studio but that setup. Now, I am a guitarist myself and I know we could sit and argue the aspects of the perfect tone or guitar or rig. I am finding more and more these days that simulations are becoming more acceptable. They do make the job so easy. You also have to accept the fact that the tone you struggled so long and hard to get is buried by the time you throw Drums, Keys, Bass, Horns, Strings, 4 vox tracks, and 4 background singers on top of it. Something to take into account anyway.  

And I'm back. Just read all of you guys post and preparing to listen to some of your stuff again, so I'll probably keep on sharing a few thoughts and maybe asking questions in the evening.

I'm  glad to see this evolve into a discussion where people chime in with an open mind, a will to share experiences and ideas in regards to what works and what doesn't, considerations about the signal path and all of that. As problematic as the issue can be at times, it's also very inspiring in a way, at least, imho. It forces me to rethink things, to try things.

I've seen the ABG stuff mentioned - I've played with it a bit last year, but since my portable rig is Mac based, unfortunately, I have to try different options.

So far, the most satisfying compromise I have found was to use an Amp Sim to track - preferably Waves GTR because it's a bit lighter on the cpu - and sculpt the sound with impulses afterwards. My latest best approximation of a sound I can live with is to use two busses, one for the actual cabinet and one with a room impulse.

At the moment, I'm still messing with free/donation-ware impulses (namely Redwirez and God's Cab), but in terms of direction, this seems to be what I'll end up heading for - I'll probably keep on testing before I spend more cash on that stuff. I've tried a few others, but these seems to be the best free ones for me.

Danni - funny you mention the 2101 as I remember checkin' that unit a while back. As light as I'm trying to keep my set-up, re-introducing hardware has crossed my mind a few times in the last few weeks. As for novels, go on my friend - I literally live for that stuff.

After spending 3 or 4 hours a night a couple of times a week studying what it was  that seemed to work better with impulses, the idea (an it's not an educated/engineer idea, but just an impression) that, for lack of a better word, it has to do with the density of the sound. 

Engineers and mathematicians could probably demonstrate how wrong I am about this, but amp sims seem to be replicating the eq curve resulting of a sound having travelled through a speaker, without much dynamic alteration and with an even energy all across the spectrum -  whereas a speaker cabinet seems to compress certain ranges of frequencies, to push them down or up the spectrum, to redistribute the energy resulting in something less accurate but more pleasant. This is most likely not the case, but as a guitar player, that's the result I hear. 

So that's where I'm at right now - I might try to add some hardware to the equation, to get more of that tightening factor before the sound actually reaches the converters.

I'll also try and find examples of sounds that may be close to what I'm trying to achieve. Overall, I'd say modern Zeppelin. Doesn't help narrowing it down, does it? lol

If you've ever heard the first few albums by a band called The Tea Party, they were particularly good at "quoting" Zep and nailing down those tones and giving them a bit more of a modern edge. Soundgarden. Maybe a bit of Alice in Chains in terms of a tiny bit less organic more defined heavier tones.