Oh, you're right.  My apologies, I wasn't actually working that into a project.  Both MIDI tracks are sending volume commands to the same soft synth or sound being generated for your MIDI. 

Option #1:  You could make another instance of the soft synth and re-route the MIDI track with the cymbal synth data to the second soft synth.  That would give you a second volume control since it would be an independent synth... that is, if you still aren't too frustrated with MIDI.

Or if it's an outboard keyboard with drum sounds, it'd be hard to create another instance of outboard gear. 

Option #2: (I'd go this way anyway) Just record the synth as audio.  Don't use the "Bounce to Clip(s)" thing.  I don't think it affects MIDI at all.  If it does, I guess it would just mesh all your layered MIDI that you had on one track and consolidate it into one MIDI clip. 

Set up another audio track and arm it to record the MIDI track from its corresponding audio input on the audio track's input.  Solo the MIDI cymbal track and record it to an audio clip...

Again, my apologies.

mindbuzz


Option #2: (I'd go this way anyway) Just record the synth as audio.  Don't use the "Bounce to Clip(s)" thing.  I don't think it affects MIDI at all.  If it does, I guess it would just mesh all your layered MIDI that you had on one track and consolidate it into one MIDI clip. 

Set up another audio track and arm it to record the MIDI track from its corresponding audio input on the audio track's input.  Solo the MIDI cymbal track and record it to an audio clip...

Again, my apologies.

First off, you have nothing to apologize about lol. You've been trying to help and I appreciate it.

I tried setting up an audio track to record the MIDI like this, but whenever I set the input to the MIDI track, the audio track turns into some other kind of track with an icon that looks like a MIDI plug above a keyboard, and I lose Record capabilities. I tried assigning the input to the cymbal output track, and tried recording, but it didn't pick anything up.

I don't want to have to create a whole separate synth instance just for cymbal chokes, but it's beginning to look more and more like I'll be forced to.



Would someone please take a look at something for me though? Open up a blank project, insert an instance of Session Drummer 3, load Steven Slate's Sizzle Kit Dry, and check out groove clip G ("100_Metal_Bridge_02.mid"). See how there are choked hi hat cymbals in there? How did they do those?? I tried figuring it out from the PRV after dragging the clip to the track, but I'll be the first to admit I have miniscule experience and knowledge in the PRV realm. Can someone with trained eyes tell me how this effect is being done?.... PLEASE?

Thank you.

My hero! lol. That works perfect for the hi hat.

HOWEVER... now I need to find a solution for crash (and theoretically other) cymbal chokes. The same method, unfortunately, does not appear to work for those.

Forget the automation... I would use a sample of a choked cymbal...

If you cant find one you could also just add a note to the step sequence,(or in prv) and put the velocity at zero or low enough to sound like a choke..

Edit: Sorry the last two post nailed this...I just saw all the bad automation post and skipped everything else...

Oh BTW for lots more info and/or you need some bedtime reading have a look HERE

BikerBoy: Good Info!!

Lot's of good advice but if you want to convert that MIDI clip to Audio select the MIDI clip and the associated Audio track and click bounce to track from the 'tracks' menu.  Instant Audio. You could then add an audio fade if you'd like.

You can also create ANY wav file of ANY sound and drag it to a pad in the SD mixer window then trigger that sound from your keyboard.

I other words you can create a custom choke sound (from Audio) using fades or any other effect you choose, export that sound as a wav file then literally drag that new sound from the browser onto a pad in the SD mixer window and fire that pad from your keyboard. Voila, new custom, choked cymbol.

FastBikerBoy

dimelives1


My hero! lol. That works perfect for the hi hat.

HOWEVER... now I need to find a solution for crash (and theoretically other) cymbal chokes. The same method, unfortunately, does not appear to work for those.

I seem to have been busy typing while you posted. Choke groups, which is how the hi-hat works are assigned in the sfz file that you load into session drummer. I'm no expert but they are relatively easy, if not a little long winded to write.

If you have a look at one of the .sfz files in a text editor especially some of the full kit ones you'll get the idea on how to write them. Take a good look at the Hi-hats especially because they have choke groups already written. Here's the important part

<group>
key=42
group=42
off_by=42

The key=42 refers to the note number, the group=42 sort of declares a group to which you can now add other notes, I'll come back to that in a second. The off_by=42 is the group number that is going to stop the sound for that key so in that example if you hit note number 42 (closed hi-hat) and then hit note 42 again the first instance will stop sounding.

So to add the open hi-hat include

<group>
key=46
group=42
off_by=42

Note 46 is the open hi hat, now included in the group 42, and silenced by group 42

Now when you hit note 46 (the open hi hat) it'll sound but as soon as you hit another note in group 42 in this case a closed hi hat or open hi hat it will silence the original.

Hope that makes sense. As I've said I'm no expert but I managed to fathom out how to write sfz files just from nosing around in the pre-written ones, and I'm stupid - just ask Bub.

Well I read this last night before bed, and I thought this was my golden answer, FastBikerBoy. And logically, it seems that it IS. However, in practice, I don't seem to be getting universally good results here. As it is by default, yes, it allows me to handle the hihat chokes just fine. But, trying to perform a similar function for, say, the crash cymbal, doesn't seem to work (for me).

I applied an off_by command in the crash's sfz and set it to the same note as the crash's trigger, then programmed in the notes in the SS, with the 2nd being of very little velocity, but the first just rang out without hinderance.

I read through that link you supplied with all the sfz info, but as far as I can tell, I was already doing everything by the book, and it SHOULD have worked. Any ideas?



HumbleNoise, I just tried your suggestion of Bouncing to Track, to a new audio track, but the resulting audio appears blank... Did I do something wrong?

I selected the MIDI clip, shift+selected the associated instrument track, selected Tracks>Bounce to Track, selected the new audio track for the Destination, left all other fields at their default, and hit ok. The audio created was blank.

What be the deal?

EDIT: Uh... never mind. It decided to work out of nowhere after trying again =P



Still wanna know why the sfz edits won't work though (FastBikerBoy? Any clues?). Any sfz pro's here?

Only problem with saving it as a sample for future use is that not all chokes should be the same duration and such.

Yeah, I can bounce to audio and do an envelope that way if I have to, but I'd really like to figure out a solution to the sfz method. Seems most efficient and logistically pleasing.

Hmmmmm, thanks for the find, Somerset. Interesting that he got the Splash to choke the Crash, but I'm still just wrangling with the question of why I can't make the Crash choke itself, as the HiHat does, with the same note.

I'll fiddle around with it some more.


EDIT:

Ok, so I tried the same choke technique as the hihat with the Steven Slate Sizzle Kit crash, and it works the very same, BUT, its sfz file doesn't say anything about "off_by"....

I'm trying to apply this behavior to the Ocean Way 10M crash, but now that that^ one doesn't even have "off_by" in the sfz, I don't know WHAT's controlling the choking...

The simple way around all of these problems is to equip yourself with something like BFD (amongst others) which provides a choke option as a separate articualtion for each & every kit piece.

Provided you've got your mapping sorted out, these then appear as separate artics inside Sonar's PRV.

I'm late for the party, but I figured I can shed some light as to why things aren't working as you expect. First a little primer on Velocity and MIDI continuous controllers (CC).

Velocity is part of a note on (and note off)  message. It cannot be changed once a note has been sounded. Velocity, in midi speak, is NOT a continuous controller. So it makes complete sense that having an automation assigned to it will never work as a volume control. Velocity is not volume. :)

Volume (CC#7) is a continuous controller, which is specific to a midi channel. All notes played on a given channel will be affected by this controller change.

Drum machines, in modern times, receive on midi channel 10. Each note is set to trigger a specific sound. Which is why a volume change affects the entire kit. Each piece in a kit is a midi note that plays on a single channel. Some sounds are tied together and are mutually exclusive to each other. Hi hats are a prime example of this. Drum machines allow you to program this behavior across any set of note you want. Software-based drum machines behave exactly the same.

However, Drum machines can receive on ANY midi channel (in the past there was no standard channel for drums). An old trick, is to put the drum machine into OMNI mode, which listens to all channels. Then play the cymbal strokes on a channel that is different than the rest of the kit.  The drum machine will play it fine, however the side effect is that you can manipulate the volume of the channel the cymbals were played on independent of the rest of the kit. When in omni mode, synths and drum machines remember what channel a note was played on in order to be able to receive corresponding midi note off message. A side effect is that the note will be affected by CC messages on its channel. Assuming, of course, that the drum machine is capable of using omni mode.  The newer the drum machine is, the less likely that this is the case.

Anyway, how does this apply to the Op?

Options are:
1 - can you set the midi channel for each piece of kit? If you can then just put the cymbals on a separate channel and track. Then put an envelope on that track to control the volume.

2 - Use 2 instances of the drum plug in, one of the cymbal and one for the rest of the kit.

Hope that gave you some ideas. :)

For the geeky, curious, or folks serious about using midi: its not a bad idea to bookmark the following link:

http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php#3