Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 22:13:59
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For whatever it's worth to anyone (little no doubt), we see the CB currently as a "modular toolbar". To me, what makes the Ribbon the Ribbon is its functionality (context sensitivity, etc) and not at all its aesthetic.
Having said that, I think it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is. It's been discussed, but for Skylight 1.0 the CB, as far as Cakewalk is concerned, is a modular toolbar. Nothing more, nothing less.
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John
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 22:17:38
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
For whatever it's worth to anyone (little no doubt), we see the CB currently as a "modular toolbar". To me, what makes the Ribbon the Ribbon is its functionality (context sensitivity, etc) and not at all its aesthetic.
Having said that, I think it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is. It's been discussed, but for Skylight 1.0 the CB, as far as Cakewalk is concerned, is a modular toolbar. Nothing more, nothing less.
Brandon, you could have said that on page one! LOL
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 22:20:55
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John
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
For whatever it's worth to anyone (little no doubt), we see the CB currently as a "modular toolbar". To me, what makes the Ribbon the Ribbon is its functionality (context sensitivity, etc) and not at all its aesthetic.
Having said that, I think it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is. It's been discussed, but for Skylight 1.0 the CB, as far as Cakewalk is concerned, is a modular toolbar. Nothing more, nothing less.
Brandon, you could have said that on page one! LOL
True John. But where's the entertainment in that?  
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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jm24
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 22:50:53
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So, when a modular-tool bar, of the current shape and size, is confined to a set width, divided into semi-arbitrary topics, and then tabbed to provide access to those categories, it would then be a "ribbon?" Yea, not a ribbon unless it is folded.
The ms ribbon is a mostly-non-configurable modular, command/tool-bar.
It wastes space by displaying stuff that is not useful with-in the modules, and big graphics, and empty non-used screen space. (I get a bigger screen to see more stuff and then I get an ugly gray mostly empty thing using the new space.)
This is very similar to Sonar 1 with its toolbars that were set in stone, including all the stuff aggregated within the particular function: lots of wasted space and reduced effectiveness. (Duh!!!! Why are we doing that again?)
Pig, pork, swine,... choose your term: it is a modular/command/tool/bar/ribbon, without tabs.
But: we digress, the OP is not just about the object called the command-ribbon. It is about the approach of applying the command-ribbon mindset to all things, by removing configurable menus, adding drop-downs, thereby adding clicks to get to some of the most used tools, decreasing use of color, changing the keyboard map by moving stuff seemingly without reason, clearly hiding, and almost hiding, needed buttons, and functions,...
Obviously, One man's metaphor is another man's waste of space.
J
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jm24
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 22:53:09
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>> it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is
Thereby adding another layer of clicks.
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John
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 23:13:22
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Pig, pork, swine,... choose your term: it is a modular/command/tool/bar/ribbon, without tabs. Believe what you like. Its funny though. The criteria we used to define a ribbon is the same as Brandon's. He is saying the exact same thing we are on this yet it makes no difference to you. You will remain with the mistaken belief that its all the same no matter what evidence you are given to the contrary. Although some of the points you say Mike is making may in fact have merit the problem is that even if merit is there it is obscured by the mistaken use of the ribbon nomenclature that distorts any truth you might have gotten from this. It puts all you and Mike say in doubt. The stubborn refusal to admit this error only undermines any argument for the other points. It is also that one assumes that a debate will be conducted with a reasonable expectation of coming to a meeting of the minds. Dogmatic refusal to hear what the other side is saying only makes this process futile and pointless. Sorry but its over now.
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SilkTone
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/06 23:21:22
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jm24
>> it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is
Thereby adding another layer of clicks.
Wrong. More like: With one click, I would be able to switch to a different set of modules that make sense depending on what I want to do at that point in time, like recording, mixing, comping, etc. Instead, with the current CB, what I need to do is right-click, hide/show the module I want (repeat for all modules I similarly want to hide/show since I don't have at least a 24" monitor), all based on what I want to do at that point in time. I fail to see how the current CB is easier than a single click that would instantly give me a different set of modules. Can you explain how you can, with a single click, call up a complete different set of modules with the current CB?
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 00:16:37
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jm24
changing the keyboard map by moving stuff seemingly without reason
J
Not that I don't want to respond to the other stuff...but this one, with all due respect, blows my mind. The new key-bindings seem without reason? (And the old ones had reason???)
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ShermanSmelville
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 01:28:12
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The key bindings are much improved. I especially like how the precision aim can be bought up with "x". I suppose some of the guys who have been with Sonar from the beginning may find it unreasonable having to learn new bindings.
Music Equipment: Cakewalk, Izotope, Propellerheads, Wavelab, Yamaha guitars, Roland keyboards Sonar X1, Gateway DX4831 (i7 860, NVidia GT320, 64bit, 8gig)
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gothic.angel
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 04:59:22
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SilkTone
I'm sorry but there is nothing in X1's Control Bar that makes it even remotely comparable to a ribbon control. It is just a static toolbar with oversized controls and not enough space to display all of its "modules", forcing users that don't have 24" monitors to hide "modules" they would really like to keep accessible.
+1,0000.... X1's Control Bar and Menus have NOTHING to do with MS ribbon... I wish they had.... it would have been a fair solution... Instead, now tools and features are just HIDDEN... which is the WORST thing Cakewalk could have done... Ribbon is a different thing, as others already stated... I dare say it's even the contrary...!!! As it allows to reach almost any feature, simply organized per groups, no need for menus... Indeed, this newly introduced "lack" (of visible tools...) with X1, is what MANY of us are complaining about... ...Too many features are NOW hidden through awful menus, needing clicks here and there, and the "key bindings" affair which some like to claim WON'T do at all... as you can't remember tons of things you can't have visual feedback about... not to mention the fact that using a computer keyboard while playing/editing isn't practical at all, at least not for all of us... Iv've been now using X1 intensely, but I STILL can't get over this matter at all, in fact I STILL find SONAR 8.5 the best ever far as that... Just an example: the new piano roll is now a pain, you don't ever know where to find what, while in the previous you had the "power" at your SIGHT and FINGERS....! ...JUST GIVE US CUSTOMIZABLE TOOLS BACK............................... (by the way, greetings to KENI.... sharing this issue with passion.... 
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jm24
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 08:46:59
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SilkTone
jm24
>> it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is
Thereby adding another layer of clicks.
Wrong. More like: With one click, I would be able to switch to a different set of modules that make sense depending on what I want to do at that point in time, like recording, mixing, comping, etc. Instead, with the current CB, what I need to do is right-click, hide/show the module I want (repeat for all modules I similarly want to hide/show since I don't have at least a 24" monitor), all based on what I want to do at that point in time.
Yes another click, EACH TIME, to change to new toolbar. In 8.5.3 ALL the toolbuttons I need are already displayed. Using the command-ribbon in MS office means each time I want something that is not showing I must CLICK again. More clicks. More attention to changing the GUI. This is less efficient. Also in 8.5.3 I have custom toolbars so I can have some of the same items quickly available on both monitors. I can look up to quickly click a different view. I do not have to move my attention to the other monitor to find what I need.
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jm24
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 08:58:09
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  Yea, you are correct. There is a major difference between the two. One has a grey background. That MS has deigned to FOLD the command-ribbon into tabbings does not change is primarry duckiness. That some want to fold it makes sense given its current size and limitations. That is why MS folded the command-ribbon in office. Obviously the MS approach is more useful once the deed has been done. Its the initial assumption of better than the old toolbars is what is at issue. It is less useful than the toolbars of 8.5.3. At least MS has provided for a row of SMALL buttons that is completely configurable cuz they knew many would find the waste of space and tabbing to be inanely inefficient.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 09:55:21
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
For whatever it's worth to anyone (little no doubt), we see the CB currently as a "modular toolbar". To me, what makes the Ribbon the Ribbon is its functionality (context sensitivity, etc) and not at all its aesthetic.
Having said that, I think it would be cool if the CB had the ability to be context sensitive in the way the Ribbon is. It's been discussed, but for Skylight 1.0 the CB, as far as Cakewalk is concerned, is a modular toolbar. Nothing more, nothing less.
Hi Brandon, I want to thank Cakewalk for consolidating the two threads last week. I thought that was a nice and helpful gesture. One of my interests in starting this thread was to invite people to voice their opinions about the concept of contextualized menus. I can see that Cakewalk has already begun working in that direction with the tabs just below the Control Bar. I am glad to see that you have shared your opinion about the benefits of these concepts and if I'm not mistaken I think you said you enjoyed the actual MS Ribbon in office. I was surprised when I saw, in the copy that I pasted in the OP, that there is so much research that has revealed that experienced users never accept the ribbon concept as a time saver. It seems fairly well documented that anyone that actually knows the program instantly perceives that the new features slow down the work process. I also noticed that MS is creating resources in an attempt to re educate experienced users, so even MS seems to realize that the ribbon isn't accepted as an improvement by people who know it's products well. It is my hope that you and Cakewalk will review the opinions voiced here, especially the highly detailed opinions that are voiced against particular details experienced with the ribbon concept, and that Cakewalk can use the info in advance of implementing similar ideas as badly as has been done in MS Office. It is my sincere hope that representatives at Cakewalk will never again have to explain to me how a 3 step process in X1 is more streamlined than a 2 step process. I would also enjoy seeing Cakewalk respect accessibility issues by anticipating how modular menu systems may cut off accessibility applications from the commands that are needed. It also seems to me that if these sorts of discussions had been conducted prior to Cakewalk decreasing the amount of useful information presented in the screen display space in X1's track and console view that perhaps Cakewalk could have anticipated that experienced users would not accept the loss of useful info as an improvement. It has been my interest, in this thread, to allow Cakewalk an opportunity to see what experienced users think about the latest trends in GUI and menu design. I hope Cakewalk may make some use of the detailed posts offered here. very best regards, mike edit spelling and grammar
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/03/08 11:26:18
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...wicked
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 15:09:54
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Not to get all Skwisgar on this but I will bets you millions billions dollars that next control bars will haves the customelations broughted backed.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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gothic.angel
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/07 15:28:52
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jm24
In 8.5.3 ALL the toolbuttons I need are already displayed. Also in 8.5.3 I have custom toolbars so I can have some of the same items quickly available on both monitors. I can look up to quickly click a different view. I do not have to move my attention to the other monitor to find what I need. ...wicked Not to get all Skwisgar on this but I will bets you millions billions dollars that next control bars will haves the customelations broughted backe Yep... ...Hope we got that back quite soon... we need (real) SONAR power BACK...
post edited by gothic.angel - 2011/03/07 15:30:49
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Poco
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 10:08:27
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mike_mccue
...so even MS seems to realize that the ribbon isn't accepted as an improvement by people whom know it's products well.
Dear Mike, That would be who, not whom, because the people who know Microsoft's products well are the subject, not the object. I was at the top of my class in obedience school. Poco
God People - God Music Where there is no peace, it is not peaceful.
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John
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 10:25:12
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Mike you use the term experienced users as if in block they all agree with what you are advocating. I am an experienced user and I don't agree. Therefore I would add that some experienced users agree with your view but not all.
Also though you clearly feel that you have lost some quality with the introduction of Skylight many of us feel we have gained with its introduction. Therefore you speak for yourself and a few others but you do not speak for all.
Please keep that in mind.
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HumbleNoise
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 10:25:26
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gothic.angel
jm24
In 8.5.3 ALL the toolbuttons I need are already displayed.
Also in 8.5.3 I have custom toolbars so I can have some of the same items quickly available on both monitors. I can look up to quickly click a different view. I do not have to move my attention to the other monitor to find what I need.
...wicked
Not to get all Skwisgar on this but I will bets you millions billions dollars that next control bars will haves the customelations broughted backe
Yep... ...Hope we got that back quite soon... we need (real) SONAR power BACK...
Gothic, have you tried Sonar Plus? Benstat's been adding custom controls at many users request. Seems to work well for others wanting the look and feel of 8.5's icons and tool bar.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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Poco
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 10:29:08
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Man, I took some Charlie Sheen this morning, and I think my face is melting off...
God People - God Music Where there is no peace, it is not peaceful.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 11:26:53
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Poco
mike_mccue
...so even MS seems to realize that the ribbon isn't accepted as an improvement by people whom know it's products well.
Dear Mike,
That would be who, not whom, because the people who know Microsoft's products well are the subject, not the object.
I was at the top of my class in obedience school.
Poco
Thank You! Fixed. best regards, mike
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PedalPoint
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 13:17:51
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Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread.
You obviously can't please all the people all the time, and all of those people are obviously using both Windows and Sonar. Why can't we be more like mac-users? Religiously clinging to the idea that the product we have bought is not only functionally, but also morally and aesthetically superior to all other products, and to adopt the practice of stern denialism whenever someone as much as hints at potential weaknesses in the product that we own and love so much? Why do we have to be so independent minded and critical of everything?
So, to clarify this issue with the Control Bar, or “ribbon” if you like.
The Control Bar is awesome. Why? Because it is so easy to hide. Just press “c” and it's gone. And that is how it should remain most of the time, not intruding upon your precious work-space. Should you ever need it, just press “c” again, and there it is, beautiful looking with nice large buttons for you to click on. But, not a second later than when you're done clicking on in, “c” it is, without hesitation, and the control bar is mercilessly banished from your sight.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 13:20:25
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I don't think you'll need much experience to tire of that routine.
:-)
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gothic.angel
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 13:56:43
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HumbleNoise
gothic.angel
jm24
In 8.5.3 ALL the toolbuttons I need are already displayed.
Also in 8.5.3 I have custom toolbars so I can have some of the same items quickly available on both monitors. I can look up to quickly click a different view. I do not have to move my attention to the other monitor to find what I need.
...wicked
Not to get all Skwisgar on this but I will bets you millions billions dollars that next control bars will haves the customelations broughted backe
Yep... ...Hope we got that back quite soon... we need (real) SONAR power BACK...
Gothic, have you tried Sonar Plus? Benstat's been adding custom controls at many users request. Seems to work well for others wanting the look and feel of 8.5's icons and tool bar.
Hi HumbleNoise... ...and Thanks... I knew about it... It's another sign that customizable tool bars are STILL needed...! Cakewalk should reflect and consider the whole issue....
GothicAngeL - EBM - Dark Electronics______________________________SONAR Platinum ∞, Rapture ProSAMPLITUDE X3 Pro Suite, FL Studio 12, Reason 10
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sven450
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:02:02
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Religiously clinging to the idea that the product we have bought is not only functionally, but also morally and aesthetically superior to all other products, and to adopt the practice of stern denialism whenever someone as much as hints at potential weaknesses in the product that we own and love so much? Why do we have to be so independent minded and critical of everything? Just substitute either X1 or 8.5 instead of Macs to your analysis, and you have the gist of 90% of the threads nowadays! I must say that I'm sure your observation of Mac users is a bit of a stereotype, but I personally have never met a Mac user that did not fit your description perfectly. Made me laugh. Thanks.
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PedalPoint
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:03:15
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To be fair, I don't use the Control Bar very often. Maybe that's why I like it so much.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:06:16
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PedalPoint
To be fair, I don't use the Control Bar very often. Maybe that's why I like it so much.
Do you just guess at what your snap to grid reset itself to? :-)
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PedalPoint
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:36:59
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mike_mccue
PedalPoint
To be fair, I don't use the Control Bar very often. Maybe that's why I like it so much.
Do you just guess at what your snap to grid reset itself to?
:-)
Ah, an excellent question! ;-) Because I use Sonar primarily as a composing tool I need to change snap-settings and note values quite often. All the time actually. In order to do that fast enough I have shortcuts for all that. My left hand rests on the keyboard, and my right hand rests on this mouse. With different combinations of Ctrl, Alt, Shift, and the buttons on the side of my mouse I can instantly change to any note-value or musical snap-value that is possible in Sonar. It is quite effective, if I may say so myself. If I need to change any of the other snap-settings or turn it off entirely then I use the control bar, but that doesn't happen very often.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:39:40
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pinguinotuerto
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:51:27
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Pedal,
I want that mouse!!!!!!!
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PedalPoint
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Re:How do you feel about how the MS Ribbon concept was implemented in SONAR X1?
2011/03/08 14:55:27
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pinguinotuerto
Pedal,
I want that mouse!!!!!!!
Well, you can't have mine! I need it myself.
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