mike_mccue


Are there any nifty symbols for "concept" or "paradigm"?

Yes concept = "??" & paradigm = "WTF".

John

 

I can remember that from studying mathematics, even though I'm nearly half as old as John

 
That is a low blow and I hope its not true. LOL Oh I see you scratched that out. Too late though. LOL

You'll be happy to know I'm only 14¾ John
 
 

mike_mccue


Are there any nifty symbols for "concept" or "paradigm"?

I think we see where you are coming from.  What I and I believe others are saying is it simply doesn't fit. I don't see it as even close. To me the CB is a big tool bar just like all the past tool bars. It takes up space and can't be fully seen on many screens but those qualities are also part of the tool bar concept in general. If anything if it were a ribbon some of this would not be an issue.
A Ribbon is suppose to be context sensitive. The CB is not.  Without that it can't be compared to a ribbon because that is fundamental to the ribbon concept.
You may not like the ribbon and you may not like the CB but disliking some things doesn't mean that because you see them as the same that all others must as well.

Also, I have nothing against the ribbon concept anyway.

John

mike_mccue


Are there any nifty symbols for "concept" or "paradigm"?

I think we see where you are coming from.  What I and I believe others are saying is it simply doesn't fit. I don't see it as even close. To me the CHB is a big tool bar just like all the past tool bars. It takes up space and can't be fully seen on many screens but those qualities are also part of the tool bar concept in general. If anything if it were a ribbon some of this would not be an issue.
A Ribbon is suppose to be context sensitive. The CHB is not.  Without that it can't be compared to a ribbon because that is fundamental to the ribbon concept.
You may not like the ribbon and you may not like the CHB but disliking some things doesn't mean that because you see them as the same that all others must as well.

Also, I have nothing against the ribbon concept anyway.

 
Well and truly fixed
 
 
 
End of.
 
 
 

On a serious note:
I am very much about the keyboard in windows. Keyboard shortcuts top open every program I use, etc, etc. That has not changed in Win7. I use the mouse only when it is absoluting necessary. It took me all of 3-5 days to be able to continue this merthod on Win7 without a hitch. It is NOT that different.
 
I do not know the actual %, but I do know from my school days (something AD :-))  there are many more right handed people in the world then left handed. So, in the case of the Hide desktop. Instead of having to travel accross the screen and click on the "show desktop" icon on the "left" I can now use one hand and just drag the mouse to the corner in bottom right. Seems like progress to me, sure sligt but progress none the less.
 
I started on macs way back when. Went to windows around win95-never looked back. Now if you gave me a mac I sure would have some issues performing the fast keyboard shortcuts I use now. But the change from Winxp to Win 7 is not near that much.
 
I am sure everyone knows you can add the show desktop icon "anywhere" you want it-so once again-not a big deal.
 
I have readily admitted I will have to learn where things are in X1 and the best way to get there. But I do not feel that is that huge an issue.
 
I do understand that if you make your living using Sonar (whatever DAW) that having to learn again where everything is would be a pain in the butt. But with 853 still here, why couldn't the transformation be in your own time frame and therefore no impact on your business?
Just my opinion of course.

After a few days looking at this thread I have to say I don't see your argument mike. The ribbon in office 2007 is a nightmare and has really slowed me down. I never have become comfortable with the office ribbon. For that reason I'll never buy Office 2010.
I can't see any similarity with the change in office 2003 to 2007 and the change between Sonar 853 and X1. The change to office was an incurable disease while the change to X1 was indigestion by comparison. My 2 cents.

"Ribbon" refers to the height of the graphic object, to refer to its difference in appearance from a "tradition" (superior) button bar.

The CB is about the same vertical height, color, and of the same "fit of inattention."

That it is not folded with respect to the Z axis, into tabs, does not reduce its "almost" identical appearance.
 
((
Edit: And, almost forgot, its similarities: wasted space, lack of color,... The concept's application to all of the interface changes, more drop-downs result in more clicks resulting in more time to do the same stuff. And so on.
))
Time to buy a vowel.

J

jm24


"Ribbon" refers to the height of the graphic object, to refer to its difference in appearance from a "tradition" (superior) button bar.

I hope you were joking when you wrote that...

Yea, I see your logic. So let's say I'm using Word 2003, and I enable enough toolbar items so that there are about 4 rows of them, then it also magically turns into a ribbon control.

Got it.

Hit the 'C' key.

"These are the kinds of people you will never satisfy. They latched onto some ****ed logic, and no matter what you say, they will never change their mind. Or admit that they were wrong no matter how obvious it is that their argument is flawed. So this discussion is pointless.

In the case of the OP, he really really just wanted to rant about something MS related and manufactured some contrived argument as a basis for said rant"


You should let me speak for myself... especially if you are going to accuse my logic of being "****ed".

I have enjoyed reading a detailed discussion and the sharing of opinions about the latest trends in menu navigation in this thread.... and I certainly have left you and any others to disagree and point out any mistakes.


But that's not good enough for you?

Why can't you come up with something intelligent to say that actually represents what ever opinion you might have?

It seems like you are resorting to making stuff up to fuel an argument or something.

Maybe someone will take you up on it... but I left you to argue with yourself a few days ago... and I think I like it that way.

regards,
mike

SilkTone


I did come up with something intelligent: The CB isn't a ribbon.
 
 
These are the kinds of people you will never satisfy. They latched onto some ****ed logic, and no matter what you say, they will never change their mind. Or admit that they were wrong no matter how obvious it is that their argument is flawed. So this discussion is pointless.

If I might ask a question? Does any one know if ribbon technology is use in any other program that does not come from MS?

I am thinking it is an exclusive technology of MS and not available generally. In fact it could be patented.

I'll bet Skylight is patented. I don't know any of this as fact it is speculation. However, its the normal way developers go about doing things.


Some other thoughts:

I am not sure why this thread was created in the first place. I realize that Mike is upset with certain aspects of X1. That though does not explain the need to confuse the issues with this kind of thread.

I am not sure why Mike is insisting that the CB is a ribbon either. If it were it might be better than it is now. I don't know. But calling something that doesn't fit any criteria to be that something is not going to make that something if it is not no matter how hard the caller insists it is. A fish is not a cow.

It either fits the concept or it doesn't. In this case there is nothing about the Control Bar that is in fact like a ribbon.

I wish this could be put to rest now and let us get beyond this thread.

From a link you provided Mike.

Patent "Land grab"

Mike Gunderloy, a former Microsoft contractor, left the company and ceased using its software partially over his disagreement with the company's "sweeping land grab" including its attempt to patent the Ribbon interface.[19] He refused to "contribut[e] to the eventual death of programming."[20] He states: "Microsoft itself represents a grave threat to the future of software development through its increasing inclination to stifle competition through legal shenanigans."[21][22]
Proponents of free software, such as KDE developer Jarosław Staniek,[23] have expressed beliefs that the patent cannot be acquired due to the ambiguity of prior art.[23] As no patent has been acquired yet[update], they assert that anyone who has not signed the license can legally implement the concept in their applications without having to conform to Microsoft's requirements.[24] It has also been stated that Microsoft will not give their approval to products competing directly with Microsoft's.[25] If the design guidelines contain legal loopholes that give Microsoft a basis for future lawsuits against products exploiting this concept, those disenfranchised would not be able to inform others due to the non-disclosure agreement.[26]
Staniek notes that the ribbon concept has historically appeared extensively as "tabbed toolbars" in applications such as Macromedia HomeSite, Dreamweaver and Borland Delphi.[23] Early ribbon UIs were developed by Lotus for their product eSuite. Screen shots are still available in an IBM redbook about eSuite (page 109ff).[27]
Another popular application that has used the "tabbed toolbar" concept is Autodesk Maya.


It would appear I was on to something. LOL

jm24


So how is it that the SX CB is not a ribbon?

Because it is not folded/tabbed?

It looks the same, does the same stuff, just as stupid, etc.

So, a non-folded ribbon is a CB.

Yea, real distinctive difference.

OK. One could say that about any tool bar. What makes the ribbon different is exactly those things you mentioned. The CB does none of that. Its simply a bunch of buttons. A tool bar. How hard is that to understand? If all you see is size as the only criteria then that is going to apply to countless tool bars.

Folded and tabbed plus not on screen with all its buttons. They are context sensitive. The CB is not. Nor is it folded or tabbed. Its just a big tool bar!