I Guess Cakewalk Doesn't Know What The Word "GAIN" Means....

My clear BUG got filed as a stupid feature request and labeled "product working as intended"....


http://www.cakewalk.com/S...il=alewgro%40gmail.com

brundlefly
Toljaso: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3221072
 
Does this thread have a point other than to raise a (yet another) stink on the main forum? 

I believe it is justified.   Let's get the word GAIN defined...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain
 
 
has nothing to do with MIDI note velocity or even MIDI Channel 7 volume information....   GAIN should adjust GAIN on the AUDIO channel, no?
 
 
sometimes a "stink" has a point and is fully justified.

Well a Simple Instrument track really is a combo of MIDI+AUDIO.  The prochannel is available, hence you CAN adjust audio settings on a Simple Instrument track, but let's face it - we don't need a CC dial which edits velocity or volume control through MIDI CC... if it's labeled "GAIN", let it be the GAIN just as if the synth track was separated from the MIDI track.
 
The dial SAYS "Gain"!!!!!   SO BE GAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO, the association is and should be closely related to the position in the flow.  The 'Gain' knob is at the input, where MIDI lives in an instrument track.  ProChannel is post instrument, so it's audio.
 
It's really obvious what the function is.  If the range is integral values from -127 thru +127, it's a velocity offset control, or "MIDI Gain".  OTOH, if the range is -18.0 thru +18.0, it's an "Audio Gain" control.
 
And aren't the "Gain" controls on audio tracks really the old "Input Trims"?  There is no audio input in an instrument track, soooooo ...
 
Just sayin' I can see The Pastry Shoppe view on this.  Could there be a better name?  Sure, but is a poorly named control worth the added health care costs down the road?
 
Then again, I don't use simple instrument tracks, so carry on!
 
 

Well if it's doing MIDI velocity by design (regardless of whether we agree with the behaviour or not) then the bug is that the fader is labelled Gain rather than MIDI velocity and it should be renamed. Maybe you should log another issue pointing to this and the issue you quote above. They can't have it both ways... It wouldn't take much time rename it to what it is to avoid confusion.
 
Nevertheless I think it would take a enhancement request to fulfils this. I think there should be a toggle within the Instrument track to display either MIDI or AUDIO facilities. Maybe another toggle for Summary of both. I suspect that's their way of thinking as well (pure speculation).
 
But I'll be honest
 
a) I wish QA would write more explaining their reasoning when they withdraw an issue.
b) I wish you were able to comment on a problem report after an issue has been withdrawn, at least a few times..  

scook
The label will likely change before the function of the knob. I would suggest looking for another solution to gain staging issues. If the audio gain knob is required, do not use instrument tracks.

that is a terrible solution.   What if I want to use Instrument tracks until mixdown?   

scook

Doktor Avalanche
They can't have it both ways.

Sure they can, it is their software and it works as documented. The control pointed to by A is described as "Velocity Trim" refer to http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Inspectors.3.html#1220713

so then why is it labelled "Gain"?

Gain means amplification at the input. Velocity almost always affects the loudness of a patch, and it works at the input to the synth; ergo, it's not unreasonable to think of this as MIDI "Gain". My only real complaint is that I think a Simple Instrument track should have Audio Gain on the audio tab in the Inspector, and MIDI Gain on the MIDI tab, but it has MIDI Gain on both.
 
I'm not sure why it wasn't implemented this way in the first place, but it wasn't so it would be a feature request now. And although I don't think that calling Velocity Offset "Gain" is unreasonable, in a perfect world, I'd prefer to see that control labeled Vel+.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

alewgro
OK all fair enough, but the bigger topic is - SHOULDN'T the knob be a GAIN knob?

It appears to be working as documented. If you want it to work in a different way, that is feature request country. It is not a problem for me, I am not as rigid in my use of instrument tracks. I use them sometimes; sometimes I don't. I believe it is even possible to split the track, make an audio gain adjustment and join the tracks again. Then again, I might just drop an empty FX chain at the top of the FX bin or PC and use it instead.

brundlefly
.... I think a Simple Instrument track should have Audio Gain on the audio tab in the Inspector, and MIDI Gain on the MIDI tab, but it has MIDI Gain on both......

someone at cakewalk is asleep at the wheel

Well MIDI velocity changes are going to give completely different results than audio "gain" in many cases, aside from the fact that they are limited to an integral range of 0-127. And there is no standard relationship to the MIDI velocity number and the "loudness" of the output between synths or even between patches in a given synth. Many synth patches will change the texture of the sound, add new voices, control filters etc. in response to MIDI velocity changes. This behavior can be very valuable if you want pounding on the keyboard controller to have a different quality than just louder, but if you have recorded the track with the velocity (hence the texture) you intend to produce, and just want the volume louder, changing the MIDI velocity value will fail. It beggars credulity to consider a change in a MIDI velocity value as an application of gain. MIDI velocity is not a signal, or a voltage, or a power. It is a discrete piece of information, like the note number. Would you say that you had applied "gain" to a pitch from a keyboard by hitting D3 instead of C3? MIDI velocity trim (adding a specific value to the recorded note number) makes sense, but I can see no reason to ever call such a procedure "gain."  As Skook notes this is a limitation of the rather silly convenience of an "instrument track" made worse by the deliberately misleading label. I never really noticed this label, since I never use instrument tracks.

alewgro
If the "Mute Button" acted as a "Solo" button, but documented that way - that's ok?  just because its documented, doesn't make it right OR functional.

I thought this was about a knob located in the same position always labelled as Gain which has two functions, audio trim for audio tracks and velocity trim for instrument and MIDI tracks. Whether it is right or functional, I believe you already received your answer from Cakewalk. This is hardly a showstopper unless you want it to be.

The label issue was reported some time ago. The report was locked by CW http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3097199. Not sure what would be accomplished by reporting it again.