Is it that others don't use lanes and loop recording to create multiple ideas? I often allow myself to loop and play different ideas then comp the desired ones together... This requires editing each lane in different players and selecting the varied pieces... They must each be trimmed by the need to use which portions...

Does this mean that I must switch to the "edit tool" and back/forth with other tools for fades etc...? If so, that just lost all the speed of the smart tool for editing for me... Another long winded work around...

Keni

So far so good. I can split assorted clips/lanes with the cluster and select the portions I wish to use even if there are gaps between them... I think I'm getting somewhere now...

I guess what I should do is post a feature request for an extra condition control to be added to alt-click so that it would be easier/faster to accomplish this...

Keni

Of course there is always the F1,F2,F3,etc keys of the T hud options to zoom through tools if you don't want to deal with hotspots. I toggle in X2 to get at I want for editing but I'm not sure if that will be necessary as much in X3 if the hotspots work.
 
Really... it's the weirdass hotspots and modes that make things difficult but they are easy enough to learn if you spend a little time with them. The brief amount of time I've spent with the X3 editing functions tells me it will be much better than X2 and WAY better than X1. Layers were old school and I like them for a while but after a bit they started driving me crazy... not because they sucke but because I could scroll through them and they would get smaller and smaller and smaller.
 

Beepster
Hi, Keni. I haven't really scoped the whole thread but saw the last couple posts and although I haven't fully explored the new lanes yet I was having similar growing pains while dealing with comping different ideas in different takes and doing crops (which were behaving the same way you are describing your split woes). I think the problem is, and it's the same problem I was having, is that you are viewing it from the old school way of cropping/muting/soloing, etc. With the new methods it's all about "promoting", using the various editing modes and finding the correct hotspots on the clips.
 
So I haven't, as I said, done a full study on this yet otherwise I'd give you step by step directions BUT you are a smart fellow so try the following.
 
Using the Smart Tool and moving through the different editing modes (right click on the record button in the transport module to access the three modes... you mostly want to try out the new comping mode) then try doing range selects/crops/etc in the top and bottom halves of the clips. The behavior changes.
 
I'm currently in the middle of getting my new apartment cleaned up and reorganized now that I'm more familiar with the place but I will be doing an in depth study of the "new" ways of editing and will let you know what I find. It seems this has been the evolution of editing and likely what is tripping you up (as well as myself).
 
It is no longer about cutting things out. It is about making things climb to the top. It's like it's all reversed and flip flopped. It's weird but kind of cool. The hotspots and making sure you are in the right mode though is definitely a little counter intuitive to the way things have been done for... oh the past couple decades but it is pretty quick once you figure it out. It's just very different.
 
Like with tape you'd cut out what you don't want to be heard and it would hit the floor. Now instead you have a pile of tape on the table and you point at what you want heard and it rises to the top... but you gotta point at it at exactly the right spot.
 
Sorry that was terribly non technical but as I said I haven't done an in depth study yet. Just a general idea of the concept shift.
 
 

Hi Beepster...
 
Thanks for the support, but I'm not having trouble with the comping tools, I'm having trouble doing other things and the comping tools get in the way! ;-)
 
No... Really... Much of the comping tools is learning how they work. that is all well and good and I'm getting the hang of that... I will use a bit and ignore a lot more, but one thing that has been plagueing me was being able to split the lanes individually to deal with the issues I need... and I found the tool by binding the Track view's Split Clips command to a key cluster... So now I can work with them somewhat. It's a bit slower both in a separate act of selecting the location as well as an additional click to close the window but it's faster than constantly changing tools tho F8<>F5 isn't too bad either.... But each is still longer (yes only by a click) than simply using a additional modifier with Alt-Click to cut only the selected clip... I've FR'd that...
 
My only other two issues with Lanes are the sad zoom actions and limitations and the inability to view the lanes within the track's own space instead of below it....
 
If I could make lanes as large small as I can make a track and Z-Click-Drag zoomed either a track or a lane to occupy the full screen area (It works for tracks as long as there are not more than one lane... More lanes than that and this shortcut makes a rtrack even with lanes hidden zoom as if it is a lane!
 
I currently spend more time re-sizing things and moving the screen around than I do any real work...
 
The new comping tools promise to be very handy in the right situations and will be a welcome tool eventually...
 
We'll see how much work-speed I can build up as I get more comfortable with the ned situations...
 
Thanks Again...
Keni
 

I like this solution...
 
I hope I can remember it... ;-)
 
Once I've selected the split tool with two clicks of F8, I can then quickly switch back and forth between F5 and F8 (split) directly... that's much faster and more like it... <whew>...
 
Keni
 
 

And I probably should read the follow up posts. lol
 
At one point I had figured out a toggle mode. Like you hold a modifier or something and it temporarily engages the last tool selected until you release it. Darned if I can remember what it was but it was super handy for MIDI editing and would suit this purpose as well. Unfortunately it's one of those things I don't think they put on the shortcut list but i's buried in the manual somewhere. Maybe under the one of the Tools entries.
 
Sorry... I'm not being very helpful. ;-p
 

Hmmm...
 
A little clumsy, but I'm sure I'll get better at it as I'm more used to the commands and processes... the order I do some things is definitely an issue...
 
I'm finding the fastest way to deal with un-equal split points is to toggle back and forth between the Smart Tool and the Split Tool using F5<>F8... Once you've selected the split tool as your preference it will stick when quickly going back and forth to the smart tool...
 
I can manually place faces on each clip to my liking but I did stumble a few times getting used to enabling my second clip from mute with the K key.... Luckily I've been suing that all the time so I'm sure this will get easier for me... Doing this with Ctrl-click will force splits on all of the lanes...
 
I can finally edit (within my zoom issues) and have the advantages of the new toolset!
 
My many thanks to all who listened and helped me on the path of discovery... I am grateful to you all!
 
Now if I had as good a solution for zooming I could be somewhat happy! ;-)
 
Keni
 
 

Keni
My many thanks to all who listened and helped me on the path of discovery... I am grateful to you all!
 
Now if I had as good a solution for zooming I could be somewhat happy! ;-)

You seem like a decent guy and we want to help!
 
Did you see my suggestions about zooming in your other thread? On a final mix I was doing today I would have gone insane without auto-zoom. Or at least still be mixing it because of all the time I would have spent zooming and re-sizing...

Anderton

Keni
I sense some anger in your words and I hope that's not the case.

It isn't! It's frustration watching you not be able to take advantage of what makes the Take Lanes cool. BTW - I completely forgot to mention that you don't have to use the comping tools in Take Lanes, you can use the Edit Tool when you want to do more "standard" editing. I had exactly the same kind of situation today that you described - different takes with parts that needed to overlap - and simply used the Edit tool to do the needed splits, slip-edits, and fades.
 
I really feel I need to emphasize that when I was first presented with comping, I couldn't wrap my head around it at all so I understand your situation. But not only is there light at the end of the tunnel, you'll be able to get things done much faster and with a choice of more options once you've got it all figured out.

Thanks Craig...
 
I'm glad I didn't make you angry... the last thing I want to do is get anyone upset... But frustrating a frustrated artist can be a touchy situation! ;-)
 
I got the idea of the toolset when it was announced and was eager to check it out... I like many of the tools and I'm sure I will use them as I can picture times when they will speed things up... Especially as I get more used to where they are! ;-)
 
I'm feeling much better about it now as that was an issue. I tried working with the edit tool, but the group of tools it carries still stunted my work... Right now I'm leaning towards selecting split with a couple of F8 presses, then simply hitting F8 when I need to do such unequal splitting then back to Smart tool with F5 where I can still do everything else... tho I have to remember to un mute the overlapped clip with K and not ctrl-click... then I can create separate fades for each clip and all is well...I also eliminate any empty spaces that are sometimes created as well... Very nice...
 
Now If I could only Zoom better/easier! <sigh>... ;-)
 
Zoom, zoom, Zoom....
 
Thanks yet again Craig!
 
Keni
 

CakeAlexS
> Now if I had as good a solution for zooming I could be somewhat happy! ;-)
 
We're waiting for you on the other thread :)
Appears to be two angles
a) I want to know what the issue is in case something needs to be sorted.
b) The rest wanna get you on a better workflow...
 
So two pronged approach :)

Cheers and thanks..

I'm about to look for the other thread.... Here's hoping I find it! ;-)
 
Thanks Alex...
 
keni
 

Here you go:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3d-Zoom-Still-As-Messed-Up-As-In-X3c-m2954161.aspx



 
 
 

Keni

Beepster
I should probably read the whole thread (I'm attempting to make dinner though) but AFAIK they seem to be trying to make splitting a thing of the past with the whole swipe/promote/auto crossfade stuff but I always just use S or use the function keys or HUD to get at the split tool. Is that not working?
 
Yeah... I should read the thread. I'm obviously missing something.

 
Yup... I've used that too, but it's too slow and clumsy when doing a lot of editing... When you read the htread and get to the few posts just prior to where your first post appears you'll see that I found some ways to deal with the issue and they won't be too bad... Hopefully they will implement my FR or something like it to give alt-click type immediacy to an isolated split (I'm not sure what to call it ;-))...
 
Now I'm finding I can work with the other features and they are extremely helpful for getting some things done quickly...
 
I don't often use auto crossfades and prefer to draw my own as I wish them to be... I haven't tried this aspect yet and I am curious to see what happens...
 
Here I go! ;-)
 
Keni
 

I am also very hesitant to use any type of auto crossfades because I'm the type of weirdo who looks and listens to every single fade in/out on every single clip of every single track and tries the various curves and adjusts the lengths until they are just right. For that reason the fast comping probably won't be such a great tool for me when actually editing but for trying out different parts and stuff it looks cool.
 
To me it sounds like you are doing bulk editing and want to slam through it as quickly as possible but as Craig has said that shouldn't be a problem. Just a matter of getting used to things which you already are. I think this is all about growing pains and hopefully (and some may not like this) Cake will finally settle down with a procedure and stick to it. For things like this that need to be done over and over and over again it is really irksome to have things change because not only do you have to relearn everything there is a certain level of muscle memory involved for hard ass pros. Like asking a seasoned receptionist to switch from a QWERTY keyboard to a Dvorak.
 
That said I haven't really dug into the new lanes but I did think the idea was good when X2 came out and found them far more usable and convenient than layers. However I hadn't become very entrenched or invested in layers so it's an outsiders perspective and being presented with TWO new ways of doing something instead of having a way that I had used and become accustomed to over years of usage and then having something new thrust upon me.
 
Now there is a third way of doing things and when I tried to just jump right in I was having problems because I simply didn't know what the heck was going on. After a bit of poking around the manual I found my problem and I will have to do a full relearn of Lanes which is... well a little annoying but there were definitely problems with the X2 incarnation and the new stuff seems a little more refined and flexible. There does however have to come a point where they lock down the basic procedures and work around those so we aren't learning something new with each release. I don't think that is where we're at here though. One more set of refinements just to make absolutely sure everything is ergonomic and makes sense then lock that shiz down and only add extra functionality by way of sub menu options, modifiers, extra buttons, etc.
 
They are doing something very unique and special here I think and I do like it very much but it's like coming up with a new... oh let's say way to build the foundation of a house. You have your prototype (X2) then you build a few houses and see what happens then correct unforeseen engineering issues and build another house (X3). A good structural engineer at that point should see the last little fundamental problems and how things might screw up in the field and eliminate them. Now you have a tried and true method that all contractors can apply across the board and THEN you start adding flourishes and ways to manipulate the foundation in interesting ways like say... returning back to our little program here... make lanes behave like layers a bit more easily without actually reverting back to layers or having to code in a completely different subset of fancy computer whatchamacallits.
 
As far as zooming... I just use the drag zoom on the ruler now. Another addition to X2 that I thought was just astounding and I don't bother with anything else it's so bloody easy with my trackball... and I'm the type of dude who uses my keyboard whenever I can so that's saying something.
 
WHY they did not remove the lane height limitation I do not know. I'm also not sure what the deal is with editing in the collapsed parent track but I wasn't too happy with how that was working in X2. I'd rather be able to get my comp together then edit the parent tracks without having to open the lanes or bounce to clips or whatever but I THINK X3 allows that type of editing a bit. Ideally we should be able to comp and lock... meaning you get in, comp the lanes to parent the track and lock it and then the parent track is your editable version. That would cause problems if you ever opened the lanes again but you could just make it so that if you DO decide to open the lanes again you lose whatever ever post comp editing you have done AND you get a dialog that gives you the option to take the current parent track that has been edited and clone it BEFORE reopening the lanes and returning to the comp session.
 
But whatevs... that's just rambling and pontification about this that and the other as I contemplate what the next piece of apartment grime I'll attack next so I'll just wish you luck in your endeavors and say perhaps look at the new tools in a fresh new light now that X3 is in your hands instead of the through the tainted glass of your X2 experience. It may end up just working out for the better. It is hard look beyond things that have been persistent annoyances even when things improve (lord I know as I'm dealing with some in the meatworld here) but sometimes we screw ourselves over with those perspectives and overlook how good things have actually gotten.
 
Whether editing in X3 has gotten to that point I have yet to fully test myself but so far I have been impressed (and editing was a MAJOR beef for me), the videos look good, the methodology and engineering seems solid and really most seem quite happy after they get over the growing pains. You seem to be even getting a little bit happier about all this.

brian brock
Can't you see that by allowing a simple, stupid workflow without pretensions about what the user is supposed to do, you actually create more power for countless unforeseen uses which by their very nature are not likely to be common individually, but in aggregate are quite common?
 
Would it be possible (or is it already possible) to have an edit mode which allows one simply to grab clips and move them around without having to keep track of which tool is doing what at each time? 
 
The simple laborious method that you pooh-pooh away in your linked post has value in its very simplicity. 

I could not agree more - Layers were basic, allowed for mistakes, but they were an amazing canvas for being creative, quickly trying multiple, very complex edits/fx within the same track - I DON'T write code all day long. I DO comp, edit, create all day long. I know what I need in order to remain productive, and take lanes are, in that department, pretty awfull. I can't believe it when I read Noel saying ''take lanes aren't coming back'' - Noel, with all due respect, you have no clue of the power lying in the ''messy'' layer system a lot of us still rely on... maybe you should really listen to the users about this one