mettelus
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:07:29
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I do remember layers being useful to record background harmonies, so just tried something quick. Recording "Sound on Sound" I was able to achieve this with take lanes, tried a little slicing, etc. If a chunk of any of them is "comped," I cannot find a way to back out of the "comping" structure.
I then went back to a vocal track that I did comp with the intent to "uncomp" chorus sections to get a "duet" effect, but cannot find an easy way to do this. Is this possible to do? (That was actually recorded in "comp mode," so maybe the question is if recorded in that mode am I committed to comping or can I change my mind to sound on sound (for certain regions) after the fact?)
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:10:08
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Sylvan
Anderton
For me, speed comping is a fantastic feature. I think the problem people have is that with Layers, you could sorta comp, and sorta edit. With Take Layers, you can comp really, really well...edit, not so much. You are 100% correct that these are Take Lanes and not Edit Lanes.
As to whether there could be an option for both, I don't do coding. However, my gut tells me that lanes and layers are fundamental areas of the program, so messing with them could be opening a Pandora's box...
Exactly. The majority of complaints about Take Lanes seems to be related to them wanting to be individual tracks for editing. I can see that Take Lanes are not meant for that purpose. I "COMP" with Take Lanes and once the comp is completed, I can do normal editing in the final single track.
Absolutely not! Layers were not separate tracks either... But I could SEE more of them at a given time than I can with Lanes and I can't zoom the lanes enough to do my work... Believe me... I've been doing this a long time... Defining the difference between a Lane and a Layer is rhetoric... either could work for me if they were well developed. Currently I don't feel they are and Layers were already working well for me.... so I wait and wait.... Yes I do what I have to but not comfortably and with a lot of extra work that used to be unnecessary... My biggest complaints with Lanes it the way they use screen space/zooms etc. Give me a switch to turn off the track's composite view and allow me to have the lanes within the track instead of stacked beneath it... and allow me to zoom as large and small as layers used to.... then Lanes will be fine for me... Comping? that's another issue... A nice tool and I can see it being handy in the right situations... Hec, I've used it a few times that it was a good tool for the situation, but most of the time I need to be able to edit the takes as part of my comping and speed comping is horrible at that... why can't I have a switch to turn it off!!! Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:12:07
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CakeAlexS
Looking at the other thread (one of many) I did an enhancement request to Cake to disable drag and drop of takelanes (as an optional default in preferences):
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Editing-woes-with-take-lanes-part-1-m2953739.aspx
My view is that maybe there are features here that maybe shouldn't be here and it needs to be simplified to avoid bad practices. On the other hand new functionality may be required to babyspoon the user into using it as per design. Maybe making them look like tracks is a mistake.
There are definitely though some weird things with takelanes that should not happen...
Always good to have features as long as they can be enabled/disabled as needs change... there were many similar "bugs" with Layers but the basic working was what I need most of the time here... Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:13:35
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neirbod
Sylvan
I "COMP" with Take Lanes and once the comp is completed, I can do normal editing in the final single track.
I find this system to be the best approach given the limitations of X3, but being able to see and move chunks in discrete layers/takes can be extremely valuable. Editing in a single track one is limited to just seeing that one track with the chunks overlapping. For some editing this is no big deal, but for others it is a real problem.
Too bad that's not always practical... I do a lot of micro-editing which needs to be done during the comping process! Keni
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mettelus
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:14:06
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Keni
... why can't I have a switch to turn it off!!!
I think I see your point now Keni. The flexibility of assigning regions in a track as "comp" versus "sound on sound" would be nice to have.
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:18:13
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mettelus
I did not do enough with layers in the past to recall their functionality well. What "features" of the layers are desired? I am not clear on this, so reading this thread confuses me more than helps me understand.
I agree 100% with Sylvan's point in that takes are takes... they get comped to a track, and the track is then edited. I am confused how/why this is not sufficient?
Edit: Brian's post came up after I submitted this, so understand the FX bin point. I guess I am still confused with the "take comment"... if things are "that diverse," trying to 'splice them' just makes no sense to me. A "take" should be repetitions of "damn near" the same content (to me anyway, perhaps I am naïve).
There are no rules or laws as to what a take should be as opposed to a track... It is data of that instrument at that point in time... Variations may not always be exact duplicates of the same data and may be alternative ideas played while recording/looping and comping them sometimes requires un-equal blocks... So you can't always comp first and then edit! Layers alos allowed all the takes to be visible at one time within the boundaries of the track... so I could see more of what's going on and available... Right now Lanes still hog screen space.... After all the clamor about how crowded pre-X Sonar screen was, now we've got the opposite... Everything so space and large that we can't get enough on screen at one time.... I was much happier with what "clutter" was being complained about.... Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:25:03
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Anderton
Blades
Something I used to use the layers for was creating many layers of a single "part" of a multi-part harmony or even several layers for each of a number of these vocals. This way I was able to use the one bus, the one EQ, the one comp - whatever and collapse the whole thing so I didn't have to look at it if I didn't want to. I sometimes would use layers to comp a part together, but at least as often use a number of layers to create and overall single/multi part, whether layering a bunch of guitar notes to create a harmony Brian May style or a vocal stack or whatever.
I must be missing something. What about the current structure doesn't allow you to do this? You can record clips directly into lanes, or bring clips from tracks into the different lanes for processing by a single effect/bus. Clips within a lane can be slip-edited, have fades added, be split, you can insert effects into individual clips, etc. If multiple clips are selected, you can do things like add a fade to one of them and that fade will be added to all selected tracks. The only real limitations I'm seeing are:
1. If clips overlap on the same lane, only the top one is audible. However, you can add another lane and move the overlapping clip into it if you want to hear that clip and the clip it overlapped.
2. The composite waveform shown in the main track is the sum of all clips that play simultaneously, which means it looks like it's clipping. (When you hide the take lanes, as far as I can tell the display gives priority to whatever clips are selected, and if no clips are selected, it shows the lowest take that's not muted.)
3. You cannot create a folder and put the Lanes in it, but as you can fold/hide the Lanes into the main track, this doesn't seem particularly useful anyway as the main track is already a "folder track" of sorts.
What am I not seeing? I realize pretty much everyone understands the benefits of the current structure for comping, but I am genuinely confused about what makes Take Lanes unusable for the kind of functionality you describe.
What about when you need to have unequal splits? Say a note hangs over differently on one track than another... Currently it's a pain to fix... Comping wants to force many things to happen to happen to all Lanes even if I only want to change one... Slipping the start pouint for example will move the start of the clip on all Lanes instead of the single one I'm trying to adjust... How about the sometimes handy tool of simply clicking on the lane and play auto-starts there... Have you tried to get it to play from before the first note? I continually find myself clicking to select the clip I want to hear then I must stop the auto playback and re-locate the the start of playback... I'm sure there are more but I'm a bit overwound from all this banter... suffice it to say that we all work differently and I'm a bit displeased that Cakewalk has taken it upon themselves to change tools that worked for many... with something that doesn't work for many... As in the nail gun/hammer image earlier in this thread.... there are times when one tool is better than another and I wouldn't throw out the hammer just because I bought a nail gun! Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:27:30
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mettelus
Keni
... why can't I have a switch to turn it off!!!
I think I see your point now Keni. The flexibility of assigning regions in a track as "comp" versus "sound on sound" would be nice to have.
Absolutely.... Thank you... and there are other issues with them as well... Keni
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mettelus
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:48:22
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I did figure out that if you hold the CTRL key while clicking with the COMP cursor, it will "toggle" the comp state of the clip you are clicking on... this will allow you to toggle clips in/out of the track "mix," albeit more surgical in nature.
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:55:55
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mettelus
I did figure out that if you hold the CTRL key while clicking with the COMP cursor, it will "toggle" the comp state of the clip you are clicking on... this will allow you to toggle clips in/out of the track "mix," albeit more surgical in nature.
Thanks for that one mettelus... I'm not sure it will do what I want but it sounds promising... I will investigate... I marked your post as helpful as it might be just the ticket to get around at least one of the issues I find so nasty with Lanes... Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/21 23:59:19
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mettelus
I did figure out that if you hold the CTRL key while clicking with the COMP cursor, it will "toggle" the comp state of the clip you are clicking on... this will allow you to toggle clips in/out of the track "mix," albeit more surgical in nature.
Thanks for trying, but that only seems to mute the clip... Keni
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mettelus
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 00:06:06
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Play with that a bit Keni, I had 4 takes sliced up and could start adding clips back in. The first CTRL-click (if they are all sound on sound) will comp it, so the others need to be added back... (it is a toggle feature, so depending on state will mute/unmute to the opposite state, with a few "first-click" nuances in there). OMG... I just did it with the other file that I recorded in comp mode, and the first CTRL-click I did RESET all comp points for that track (all takes reset to SoS with full clip length). This feature seems to only work if NO clips are selected in a comped track. A CTRL-click with the comp cursor will "reset" all comp points (use cautiously). To prevent this, simply comp click on a clip already comped first. Be SURE to save a file before playing with this... I am sure you will want to back out of learning this feature.
post edited by mettelus - 2013/12/22 00:38:29
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brundlefly
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 00:28:53
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Blades
Does the new way accommodate this workflow/layout?
In short, yes. The differences between layers and lanes are mostly about how they are displayed, and the fact that the Comp tool is now the default Smart tool in the track view (though only in the bottom half of a clip). It seems to me that possibly the one thing the Bakers could do to reduce the frustration of users who want to layer sounds in take lanes instead of comping them is to allow disabling/substituting the Comp tool. It sounds like there's a lot of accidental comp muting/splitting going on that's causing headaches. For those who are having trouble with that, you can "heal" the comp slits in all lanes by swiping through the whole clip in one lane - you may need to zoom out the timeline to make this easy to do if it's a long take, because you need to start outside the clip to prevent creating more splits. Also, you'll want to get used to using the hotkey K to unmute accidentally muted clips.
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Anderton
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 03:40:58
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Keni
What about when you need to have unequal splits? Say a note hangs over differently on one track than another... Currently it's a pain to fix... What's frustrating to me is you keep thinking things can't be done when they can in fact be done. Use the scissors tool instead of the comping tool - alt-click on the Take and you can split it wherever you want. If you have notes hanging over on one track that aren't on another, you're going to have to do custom splits no matter what. You can also move the split point laterally between two individual adjacent clips and nothing else if you want. Comping wants to force many things to happen to happen to all Lanes even if I only want to change one... Slipping the start pouint for example will move the start of the clip on all Lanes instead of the single one I'm trying to adjust... It doesn't have to. Just select only the clips you want to affect. I have no problem slip editing individual clips. I think you haven't worked enough with the new tools to understand that they are not necessarily forcing you to work in particular ways, they default to working in particular ways but you still have a lot of flexibility in how you can use them. How about the sometimes handy tool of simply clicking on the lane and play auto-starts there... Have you tried to get it to play from before the first note? I continually find myself clicking to select the clip I want to hear then I must stop the auto playback and re-locate the the start of playback... I'm not quite sure I understand the problem but unless you're comping, don't use auto-playback and just place the now time where you want to start playing. Suffice it to say that we all work differently and I'm a bit displeased that Cakewalk has taken it upon themselves to change tools that worked for many... with something that doesn't work for many... It's an area of the program that has changed, and once you learn what those changes are, you will find that on balance the changes allow for far more flexibility than was possible with layers. So far the things you've mentioned can be done, and easily. It's like the person who was disappointed because layers let him play back multiple tracks simultaneously through an individual FX bin and bus and he didn't want to have to give that up with the new Take Lane paradigm. But you can do that with the new Take Lanes. I think the real issue is that it's annoying to have a workflow all figured out, and then have to modify it to accommodate something that's changed. The question then becomes whether the time lost learning the new workflow will be compensated for by offering a smoother user experience that will save time overall and make for more efficient operation in the future. In my Sound on Sound column on comping with X3, I mentioned the initial difficulty I had figuring out the new Take Lane paradigm. I really had a hard time wrapping my head around it at first. But I read all the online documentation and spent a couple days experimenting with different scenarios. After those two days were done, I would NEVER want to go back to how it was before.
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Splat 
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 03:43:03
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mettelus
Play with that a bit Keni, I had 4 takes sliced up and could start adding clips back in. The first CTRL-click (if they are all sound on sound) will comp it, so the others need to be added back... (it is a toggle feature, so depending on state will mute/unmute to the opposite state, with a few "first-click" nuances in there).
OMG... I just did it with the other file that I recorded in comp mode, and the first CTRL-click I did RESET all comp points for that track (all takes reset to SoS with full clip length). This feature seems to only work if NO clips are selected in a comped track. A CTRL-click with the comp cursor will "reset" all comp points (use cautiously). To prevent this, simply comp click on a clip already comped first.
Be SURE to save a file before playing with this... I am sure you will want to back out of learning this feature.
If you believe this to be a big problem (or a bug in any way) is it possible to report this to the bakers and leave the issue number here? https://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/problemreport.aspxThanks...
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Anderton
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 03:52:16
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I'm going on memory here, but I'm 95% sure I've run into the kind of scenarios you describe while working with X3, and my answers are based on what I recall from working with the Take Lanes in post-comping situations. Blades
Short version: I want to be able to easily collapse a number of vocal takes that are designed to be a stack. Let's say I have a three part harmony and I want 5 voices (mine) on each of the 3 parts. In my method, I'd have 3 tracks with 5 layers each or possible 1 track with 15 layers. What would I have today? The same? Yes. You could have 3 tracks each with 5 Take Lanes, or 1 track with 15 Take Lanes. My old way, I'd just EQ each of the three vocal parts with 1 EQ. You can do that too. If I wanted to automate something like panning for the whole background stack, I just did the automation on one or maybe up to three tracks You can do that too. Just add automation to the track with the Take Lanes. I'd send all three tracks to a bus where I could add the right verb or whatever (same in today's version, I suppose). Yes, you can do that too. I'd have all three tracks in a folder called backup vocals. The tracks with the Take Lanes can be put into folders. Neat, clean, simple, fast, efficient on CPU, etc. Agreed! But now you can do really stellar comping, too. Don't listen to what some people are saying about Take Lanes...try them yourself, but do be aware there's a learning curve. IMHO, it's one well worth scaling for the end results.
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Blades
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 05:04:02
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I will check into it myself. I much prefer to KNOW things than to trust that they are a certain way because of the reports of others, especially when it comes to using things a little outside of the way they might have been intended :)
Thanks for the reassurance. When I have a little bit of play time, I'll see what I can figure out.
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neirbod
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 08:45:24
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I share Keni's experience and frustrations with take lanes. While i believe the issues are fundamental and would require a "fix" for takes to work efficiently for editing some types of sessions (like real drums) i still hold out the possibility that I just need to adapt my workflow.
I (and others) have requested that CW create one of their videos on drum editing and comping using take lanes to demonstrate how a revised workflow could help. Most recently I responded to a request in the Drum Month thread for ideas and heard nothing back. Not only have I not seen any demonstrated efficient workflow, I have yet to see CW weight in with a statement that they appreciate the concerns many of us raise and will work on ways to help demonstrate a better workflow. This suggests to me the recognize the limitations and don't want to say anything. I would like to be proven wrong.
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Anderton
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 11:13:00
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neirbod
I (and others) have requested that CW create one of their videos on drum editing and comping using take lanes to demonstrate how a revised workflow could help. Most recently I responded to a request in the Drum Month thread for ideas and heard nothing back. Not only have I not seen any demonstrated efficient workflow, I have yet to see CW weight in with a statement that they appreciate the concerns many of us raise and will work on ways to help demonstrate a better workflow. This suggests to me the recognize the limitations and don't want to say anything. I would like to be proven wrong.
It suggests that Cakewalk has a small staff, was totally immersed in QCing X3d and getting it out the door, and was not going to drop everything to produce a custom video on how one might use comping with multi-tracked drums. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, you can treat Take Lanes like layersif that's what you want (with very few differences, e.g., you can't put Take Lanes in a folder as you can already fold them into the main track anyway). I've yet to see any DAW with a comping protocol that makes it easy to handle multi-tracked audio drum parts, which seems to be your overriding concern. What I've done in the past with Sonar and other DAWs is: 1. Create a track for each drum part, e.g., kick, snare, hat, stereo overhead, stereo room (7 tracks). 2. Put all seven tracks into record and comp "x" number of takes in each track. 3. As a reference, solo the tracks that come closest to what I want. 4. Edit the takes to choose the best bits. 5. SAVE THE PROJECT after choosing the best bits. 6. Bounce the clips together for each track and proceed with 7 tracks going forward. This is pretty much how I comp with hex guitar where each output needs to go on its own track, which has the same basic issues.
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mettelus
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 12:29:47
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CakeAlexS
If you believe this to be a big problem (or a bug in any way) is it possible to report this to the bakers and leave the issue number here?
Before I say anything, I do not feel this is a bug at all... Let me step back a second to clarify. Thus far I have only used take lanes for comping really, and have not (no joke) read any documentation or watched any videos on using it. For strictly comping, it is that intuitive... just watch the cursor switch to the comping tool and it slices all takes, and you can select/adjust the takes you want. As long as the cursor is not the comp cursor, you can slip-edit takes if desired (the comp cursor slices all takes at once). Clicking with the comp cursor promotes a slice to the track. Pretty simple. Holding CTRL and comp-clicking takes then toggles the state of individual clips, so you can promote all (or even none) to the track. It is similar to CTRL-clicking in Windows to multi-select, so is intuitive as well. The "reset" feature I was actually trying to find, since I had a few vocal recordings that were comped and was wondering if I "could" as it were. It seems as long as no individual clip is selected that a CTRL-comp click on a comped track will reset all takes to "Sound on Sound" so that feature is there as well. IMHO, I think a big chunk of "complaints" is simply watching the cursor (and realizing what it does). The comp cursor simply slices all takes, promotes a take, or can be used to toggle promotions (CTRL-comp click). As long as it is not the comp cursor, individual takes can be adjusted without affecting the others. New and different, yes, but I think very much intended. It actually facilitates the "layer" effect as well once understood, so a portion is simply playing with it to understand it.
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 12:55:06
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Anderton
Keni
What about when you need to have unequal splits? Say a note hangs over differently on one track than another... Currently it's a pain to fix...
What's frustrating to me is you keep thinking things can't be done when they can in fact be done. Use the scissors tool instead of the comping tool - alt-click on the Take and you can split it wherever you want. If you have notes hanging over on one track that aren't on another, you're going to have to do custom splits no matter what.
You can also move the split point laterally between two individual adjacent clips and nothing else if you want.
Comping wants to force many things to happen to happen to all Lanes even if I only want to change one... Slipping the start pouint for example will move the start of the clip on all Lanes instead of the single one I'm trying to adjust...
It doesn't have to. Just select only the clips you want to affect. I have no problem slip editing individual clips. I think you haven't worked enough with the new tools to understand that they are not necessarily forcing you to work in particular ways, they default to working in particular ways but you still have a lot of flexibility in how you can use them.
How about the sometimes handy tool of simply clicking on the lane and play auto-starts there... Have you tried to get it to play from before the first note? I continually find myself clicking to select the clip I want to hear then I must stop the auto playback and re-locate the the start of playback...
I'm not quite sure I understand the problem but unless you're comping, don't use auto-playback and just place the now time where you want to start playing.
Suffice it to say that we all work differently and I'm a bit displeased that Cakewalk has taken it upon themselves to change tools that worked for many... with something that doesn't work for many...
It's an area of the program that has changed, and once you learn what those changes are, you will find that on balance the changes allow for far more flexibility than was possible with layers. So far the things you've mentioned can be done, and easily. It's like the person who was disappointed because layers let him play back multiple tracks simultaneously through an individual FX bin and bus and he didn't want to have to give that up with the new Take Lane paradigm. But you can do that with the new Take Lanes.
I think the real issue is that it's annoying to have a workflow all figured out, and then have to modify it to accommodate something that's changed. The question then becomes whether the time lost learning the new workflow will be compensated for by offering a smoother user experience that will save time overall and make for more efficient operation in the future. In my Sound on Sound column on comping with X3, I mentioned the initial difficulty I had figuring out the new Take Lane paradigm. I really had a hard time wrapping my head around it at first. But I read all the online documentation and spent a couple days experimenting with different scenarios. After those two days were done, I would NEVER want to go back to how it was before.
Yes... I have found ways to do what I need... These issues I bring up aren't stopping me from doing my work, but making it much harder. I have been and continue to explore the new facets... This is really my point. I have always found work arounds, but when the new changes slow me down even with knowing their existence... For example... It is indeed infuriating to be forced to learn many new commands to accomplish what was once easy... A "simple" preferences toggle or if must be, manual toggle to enable a comping mode when it is desired becomes the issue for me... Why must I be forced to continually do extra work to accomplish simple tasks? Would you be comfortable if smart grid was forced on you? I'm sure you would find ways to do what you need, but it's now slowing your workflow... Please don't misunderstand my posts on this... I'm not arguing between the tool sets, only mentioning that these new tools should not be replacements... I'm guessing this is one that I would believe should be an on-the-fly toggle as well as a default choice... I know you will say they are not replacements, but they are indeed as I must go out of my way to accomplish what once were simple tasks... Of course learning the myriad of new commands helps, but does not replace the stream... I have learned many new commands for old tools since X1 was released... Daunting at times but now 8.5.3 is more confusing as I use X most of the time... For me, this kind of forced workflow changes does not help most sides of workflow... It may help some, but only at cost to others.. I sense some anger in your words and I hope that's not the case. It's often hard to communicate through the forums and such as we must imagine we understand what each other are referring to and why... I know we are all interested in having the DAW that does what we all need... Reading what those needs are is a constant task for The Bakers and learning if how individual's deal with the software creation is no simple task... I continue to endeavor to help in the design as much as possible even when those around me don't get my point... Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 12:59:44
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Anderton
Keni
What about when you need to have unequal splits? Say a note hangs over differently on one track than another... Currently it's a pain to fix...
What's frustrating to me is you keep thinking things can't be done when they can in fact be done. Use the scissors tool instead of the comping tool - alt-click on the Take and you can split it wherever you want. If you have notes hanging over on one track that aren't on another, you're going to have to do custom splits no matter what.
You can also move the split point laterally between two individual adjacent clips and nothing else if you want.
Comping wants to force many things to happen to happen to all Lanes even if I only want to change one... Slipping the start pouint for example will move the start of the clip on all Lanes instead of the single one I'm trying to adjust...
It doesn't have to. Just select only the clips you want to affect. I have no problem slip editing individual clips. I think you haven't worked enough with the new tools to understand that they are not necessarily forcing you to work in particular ways, they default to working in particular ways but you still have a lot of flexibility in how you can use them.
How about the sometimes handy tool of simply clicking on the lane and play auto-starts there... Have you tried to get it to play from before the first note? I continually find myself clicking to select the clip I want to hear then I must stop the auto playback and re-locate the the start of playback...
I'm not quite sure I understand the problem but unless you're comping, don't use auto-playback and just place the now time where you want to start playing.
Suffice it to say that we all work differently and I'm a bit displeased that Cakewalk has taken it upon themselves to change tools that worked for many... with something that doesn't work for many...
It's an area of the program that has changed, and once you learn what those changes are, you will find that on balance the changes allow for far more flexibility than was possible with layers. So far the things you've mentioned can be done, and easily. It's like the person who was disappointed because layers let him play back multiple tracks simultaneously through an individual FX bin and bus and he didn't want to have to give that up with the new Take Lane paradigm. But you can do that with the new Take Lanes.
I think the real issue is that it's annoying to have a workflow all figured out, and then have to modify it to accommodate something that's changed. The question then becomes whether the time lost learning the new workflow will be compensated for by offering a smoother user experience that will save time overall and make for more efficient operation in the future. In my Sound on Sound column on comping with X3, I mentioned the initial difficulty I had figuring out the new Take Lane paradigm. I really had a hard time wrapping my head around it at first. But I read all the online documentation and spent a couple days experimenting with different scenarios. After those two days were done, I would NEVER want to go back to how it was before.
Yes... I have found ways to do what I need... These issues I bring up aren't stopping me from doing my work, but making it much harder. I have been and continue to explore the new facets... This is really my point. I have always found work arounds, but when the new changes slow me down even with knowing their existence... For example... It is indeed infuriating to be forced to learn many new commands to accomplish what was once easy... A "simple" preferences toggle or if must be, manual toggle to enable a comping mode when it is desired becomes the issue for me... Why must I be forced to continually do extra work to accomplish simple tasks? Would you be comfortable if smart grid was forced on you? I'm sure you would find ways to do what you need, but it's now slowing your workflow... Please don't misunderstand my posts on this... I'm not arguing between the tool sets, only mentioning that these new tools should not be replacements... I'm guessing this is one that I would believe should be an on-the-fly toggle as well as a default choice... I know you will say they are not replacements, but they are indeed as I must go out of my way to accomplish what once were simple tasks... Of course learning the myriad of new commands helps, but does not replace the stream... I have learned many new commands for old tools since X1 was released... Daunting at times but now 8.5.3 is more confusing as I use X most of the time... For me, this kind of forced workflow changes does not help most sides of workflow... It may help some, but only at cost to others.. I sense some anger in your words and I hope that's not the case. It's often hard to communicate through the forums and such as we must imagine we understand what each other are referring to and why... I know we are all interested in having the DAW that does what we all need... Reading what those needs are is a constant task for The Bakers and learning if how individual's deal with the software creation is no simple task... I continue to endeavor to help in the design as much as possible even when those around me don't get my point... Keni BTW... I will work harder at using the changed scenario as it is just as I have done with every iteration of Sonar and ProAudio etc. over the years... Thanks for always being willing to share your knowledge and insights... Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 13:16:26
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Sorry for the weird multi posts... iPad posting issues... I was still editing and it continued to display my message in edit mode... Please excuse the confusion... This is a hard enuf conversation for me to begin with! ;-)
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 13:33:41
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Take lanes are a massive superset of layers. See my post in this thread for more details: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2954933 Layers as they stood in earlier versions are not coming back, that's for sure. It was a limited and incomplete set of tools for dealing with comping. Most of the issues you report are completely possible to do within the take lanes tools. If there are specific things you cannot do they, make specific cases for them and if they are not possible and common enough workflows the take lanes tools can potentially be enhanced in the future.
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brian brock
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 14:29:48
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Can't you see that by allowing a simple, stupid workflow without pretensions about what the user is supposed to do, you actually create more power for countless unforeseen uses which by their very nature are not likely to be common individually, but in aggregate are quite common?
Would it be possible (or is it already possible) to have an edit mode which allows one simply to grab clips and move them around without having to keep track of which tool is doing what at each time?
The simple laborious method that you pooh-pooh away in your linked post has value in its very simplicity.
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nargile
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 15:27:58
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Keni
I know I'm crazy, but there are so many issues with Lanes that don't work for me.
Id be happy to have layers with all it's bugs and no more development if need be...
Please... Maybe if enough people make this issue in the system as well as here in the forums it will be taken more seriously...
Honestly I don't believe they will do this, but maybe enough polite requests will get something done to make this important tool work for both camps...
I'm so tired of struggling with a system that does not work for me after so many years of a tool that worked well...
Keni
Keni, you are not crazy, I feel like you, I'd be happy to have layers back, yes with its bugs and all that because the day layers var introduced I liked it and got used to its workflow and since then I have many layers in every track (songs) now, today, layers is gone and take lanes is in and my biggest problem is the forced workflow on take lanes (click on lower part of midi/audio clip to mute the rest take lanes) is very very hard to get used to, and even to this date Im still struggling with I accidentaly click on lower parts of midi/audio clips... Im really thinkig of stop using take lanes and go back to old method, have no lanes and have only 1 track and no take lanes just to keep away from this destructive default forced "comp" mode or whatever it is called... (click on lowerpart midi/audio clips) I really hope this default forced "comp mode" (Click midi/audio clip to isolate (clip promote)) will have an on/off switch option, I really hope it will be fixed in X3e patch (and don't tell me that its switchable by changing recording mode to sound on sound, thats just a recording mode) besides how lanes work, here is I post I made about how they make tracks cluttered and here is an idea to make them easy to see what is a track and what is take lanes... sonar X3d take lanes visual suggestionhttp://forum.cakewalk.com/sonar-X3d-take-lanes-visual-suggestion-m2954545.aspx and here is the default comp mode Im having trouble with "(click on lower part of midi/audio clip to mute the rest take lanes)" sonar x3 producer mouse click on midi/audio clip promote bug??http://forum.cakewalk.com/sonar-x3-producer-mouse-click-on-midiaudio-clip-promote-bug-m2903303.aspx thanks
post edited by nargile - 2013/12/22 15:56:19
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 15:39:27
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Take lanes are a massive superset of layers. See my post in this thread for more details:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2954933
Layers as they stood in earlier versions are not coming back, that's for sure. It was a limited and incomplete set of tools for dealing with comping. Most of the issues you report are completely possible to do within the take lanes tools. If there are specific things you cannot do they, make specific cases for them and if they are not possible and common enough workflows the take lanes tools can potentially be enhanced in the future.
Thanks Noel... I'm off to read the thread you just supplied ASAP... Keni
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mettelus
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 16:01:34
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Egads... I am not sure what to say, but feel that "trying" to understand may be "right out."
First, the "smart tool" can be easily over-ridden... right click on the "edit" tool and choose your poison for your task. As the smart tool offers more functionality, that is a good default... I am very confused as to why watching the cursor "being an issue" only applies to "take lanes" and nothing else? I don't see any posts of "Damn it, I just faded out my clip!!! Fix this!!"
Second, the "take lanes" visual solution is already in place (in the form of track colors)... your suggestion, does not show any differentiation in the clips on the right. Track colors work on both sides of the fence.
Lastly, the CTRL-clicking with the comp tool active does toggle comping. Whether a user chooses this or not is up to them.
I am sorry if this seems over the top, but I spent over an hour last night with take lanes just to learn the functionality. I didn't read any references or watch any videos and it all just fell into place and made sense, so I am having an incredibly hard time fathoming the hard set tone of this thread (and the other). I have spent more time trying to help people than it took me to figure "take lanes" out on my own here.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 16:08:02
(permalink)
BTW Craig...
Using the alt-click will allow you to plait at whatever time you choose, it splits all the lanes at the same point and that's not working for me... I've been using that tool fir a long time.
I'm still searching for more commands, but I don't see any that will allow this... Of course I could revert to switching constantly between the assorted tools other than smart or comping... That ain't gonna be fast...
At the moment I don't recall what I last did regarding this, so I'll go back to searching...
Thanks...
Keni
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Keni
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Re: I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes
2013/12/22 16:26:26
(permalink)
Ok... I've searched all pages in the online help and cannot find a tool that allows me to split only one lane so I can split each lane where I need. Having split only common to all lanes in not something that's gonna work much of the time here...
If there is such a tool/command, would anyone be kind and tell me?
Thanks...
Keni
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