Danny Danzi
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 16:59:04
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☄ Helpfulby Studious 2013/10/26 22:00:48
dke
John T
Well, different things matter to different people.
I was more just curious of why it would make a difference especially to the point of being disappointed in X3 in general over it. I'm not against it or anything.
Dan
Don't get me wrong Dan, I'm definitely not disappointed with X3. I know you probably didn't mean me. I'll show you the thing that I'm talking about. Keith: Arrows are cool, but if I'm editing with my mouse and doing my thing, I have to move to the arrows where as my finger is right on my mouse scroll. I's like pressing shift while scrolling...it's another thing that we have to do that was "right there" before, know what I mean? Like I said in my first response, it's quite obvious I need to change the way I work to accept the change that was made. It's just super hard to not be able to scroll one click and see what I expect to see after doing this since Cake (insert version). We installed X3 on our work system down at my other studio. I didn't say anything to my chief engineer.....I just let him do his thing. 30 minutes after install he calls me and says "dude, I can't scroll up and down like I used to?!" I know the people like me are probably too few for you to implement an option. I'm just finding it really difficult to break out of this. :( Here's what I mean: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/ScrollProblems.wmv -Danny
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John
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:09:44
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Danny you sure did a great job of explaining things. I still don't get the problem with CJ though.
BTW I can see why you want it the way it was Danny.
I'm not all that bothered by it. I am a bit bothered by the loss of maximizing a track to fill the entire area by double clicking one the header.
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brundlefly
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:20:31
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John
I'm not all that bothered by it. I am a bit bothered by the loss of maximizing a track to fill the entire area by double clicking one the header.
? That one hasn't changed here.
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gswitz
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:24:19
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I understand cjs need. Frankly, I think he can be accommodated. Cakewalk has provided work arounds.
In the future, it would be nice to have the freedom to scroll as you like. Managing real estate is critical to productivity that's what the x series is all about. I also think you should be able to choose your scrolling method for your mouse wheel.
I think that Cake underestimated the impact to its hard core customer base.
For those using touch, I think this is less of a bother, but still... Efficiency is paramount and this is effecting it.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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John
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:24:40
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It could be due to Windows 8.1 Brundlefly.
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tomixornot
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:41:22
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After watching the video I totally agree with Danny even though I don't use the feature as demoed.
Many years ago, while I was still a business apps developer, if there is any change in the user interface, we make it a point to have an option to check / unchecked these U.I changes - with the default unchecked so existing user base may use it unchanged. Only clients that asked for the feature will have to turn it on.
The system ends up with pages of (complicated) setup screens. But if this was not done, we have hundreds of users jumping on us complaining why it's all different. And they hate any U.I changes when it affected their work flow, especially business apps dealing with front end cash collection. We've learnt our lessons and we choose the U.I setup way.
So there you have it. It's either a system that preserve old workings,etc.. but ended up with pages of setups (for U.I preference) or a system that implements the latest toolkit features without setup or with partial setup.
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StepD
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:45:32
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John
It could be due to Windows 8.1 Brundlefly.
That's still working for me in 8.1
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StepD
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 17:52:49
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Danny, if you have all of your buses the same size and one bus fills the bus pane like in your vid, the up and down arrows on the keyboard will scroll one track at a time, so that's an option.
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John T
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 18:01:12
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Danny Danzi
Keith: Arrows are cool, but if I'm editing with my mouse and doing my thing, I have to move to the arrows where as my finger is right on my mouse scroll. I's like pressing shift while scrolling...it's another thing that we have to do that was "right there" before, know what I mean?
Yeah, know what you mean. I think software designers (I've been one myself) can sometimes forget that "better" doesn't always trump muscle memory. Of course, there's a "new users / old users" consideration there, which I know from old threads Cakewalk DO think carefully about. I dunno, I think progress means that we don't always keep everything we had. In this, I disagree with CJ's view that there's a "downgrade" here. That said, I'm sympathetic to his frustration; when a way of working that you had down cold doesn't work any more, it's a pain, of course.
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John T
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 18:03:17
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StepD
Danny, if you have all of your buses the same size and one bus fills the bus pane like in your vid, the up and down arrows on the keyboard will scroll one track at a time, so that's an option.
I think clicking on the up and down boxes on scroll bars do this too. For my money, the new mouse wheel behaviour is much more natural.
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John T
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 18:04:48
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Ah.. to clarify: I mean the way it scrolls at a constant rate, rather than per track, whatever size the tracks are.
The limitation CJ's on about - it's not a problem for me, but I can't see what's beneficial about it either. So an odd change.
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cliffr
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 19:01:06
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I don't understand what the issue CJ is talking about either.
It would be interesting if he could do what Danny did with a video to show us ?.
Hey CJ, any chance you can demo the issue ?.
I didn't exactly grasp what Danny was highlighting until he put up the video either, but I get it now - it's not something that drives me so crazy though.
It's always interesting to see the whats whys and how fors, of how other people use things - and that's where this forum is a real asset to this whole community.
CJ ... can you do us a video man, we'd love you for it !
Not that we don't already :-)
Cheers - Cliff
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Dave Modisette
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 19:15:49
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CJaysMusic
They also 'intended' to take away you from seeing 4 sends in the console view! Whats next, are they going to take away the ability to scroll left and right?
+1 on the downgrade to two visible sends. Of the 4 major DAW products I own, only SONAR shows this few sends. I'm really trying to like SONAR again but this really bugs me.
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jb101
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 19:26:07
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brundlefly
John
I'm not all that bothered by it. I am a bit bothered by the loss of maximizing a track to fill the entire area by double clicking one the header.
? That one hasn't changed here.
Is this an auto track zoom difference? With auto track zoom on, it (maximising a track) doesn't work, with it off, it does.
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John
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 20:09:12
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JB you may be on to something. Edit; You nail it JB. I just rried it and with auto zoom on it doesn't work. Turn it off and it does.
post edited by John - 2013/10/25 20:23:02
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Kev999
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 20:22:24
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I'm still sore about a feature I relied heavily on that got removed between versions 6 and 7. Feature requests got me nowhere.
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dke
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 20:30:41
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I can definitely see the reasoning for your preference for the previous way of scrolling Danny. I also definitely get you on muscle memory tripping you up, my big one is using a R Click for lasso when virtually every other program and plugin that uses lassoing uses the left.
I understand why it was done in Sonar and I have no complaint about it, but that doesn't make it any easier too get used too. :)
Dan
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BlixYZ
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 22:05:52
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never heard of that feature. what was the benefit?
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SuperG
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 22:24:59
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Mebbe it's all just a test to see who all the Divas here are.... 
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John
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 22:35:59
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SuperG
Mebbe it's all just a test to see who all the Divas here are....
That gave me a smile Super. Thank you for that.
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CJaysMusic
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/25 23:35:01
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This issue should be fixed in the next patch. I just regressed i Thanks Seth :) I'm pretty sure CJ isn't complaining about the scroll by track/fractional scrolling, but the in-ability to scroll the track pane regardless of track count to only display 1 track. That is correct Seth. You nailed it!
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2013/10/25 23:43:05
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hockeyjx
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 00:06:38
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Danny Danzi: Your voice is SO JERSEY. I know I *used* to sound like that 
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Jackdied
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 03:26:52
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here is the reaper vs sonar. reaper: (messy)  and Sonar X2:(clean) 
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CJaysMusic
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 08:53:28
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
If you want to scroll by whole tracks, click on the scroll arrows.
That doesn't work. You cannot scroll to see track 32 at the top of the track view in a project of 32 tracks. Those arrows are useless!! You cannot scroll using the Arrows, the mouse wheel or the page up and down to only see 1 or 2 tracks at the top of the track view, like you could in all the other versions
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CJaysMusic
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 08:56:47
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CJ, we must be missing the boat and must have to revise how we do things. Do you guys not use your middle mouse wheel to scroll tracks? For those that consider it minor, unfortunately it's huge for some of us. Especially if you run a business and may have 60-80 tracks with 10 or more buses. Trust me when I tell you, it's been one of the most annoying things for me in this release. I can't say enough good about X3...but this is such a frustrating thing, it makes me seem more negative than I need to be only because of how often I am constantly mouse scrolling tracks....only to have them not end up where I want them. They go right on by, or I get a quarter of a track, or a half of a track...so I either have to make them big where I lose real estate or I use Shift and have to do two mouse scroll clicks to see one track in full view. The smaller I make my tracks, the worse this becomes. +1
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CJaysMusic
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 09:21:34
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I understand cjs need. Frankly, I think he can be accommodated. Cakewalk has provided work arounds. Then you do not understand what i'm saying. What there is, takes 4 or 5 steps to do what a mouse scroll wheel did, the arrows did and the page up and down did on their own.. Those kind of so called work abounds are not feasible to the work flow.
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gswitz
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 10:07:09
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When I said 'I think you can be accommodated', my meaning was that it seems like something they can put back into the app.
Limiting the window tracks and bus pane scroll windows to 1/2 full seems like it was an arbitrary decision when implementing the fractional scrolling. It was probably slightly simpler to do this than to enable you to roll to exactly the last track or bus, given the changes they were making.
Also, snapping the busses so that it's easy to scroll a bus keeping it 100% in the pane seems to make sense (Danny's complaint). You could adjust the strength of the snap just like we do in the current snap.
The only reason that I can see to prevent the user from scrolling the last track or bus to the top of the window would be to show the user that there is more up there (in case she forgot). I don't think this is worth constraining the user for, imho. And if they do, they should make the constraint optional.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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tacman7
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 10:52:09
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I left X2 for S1 some time ago.
Going to give X3 a try.
I notice in S1 I can't scroll up and down unless I click in certain places.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 11:32:00
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CJaysMusic
CJ, we must be missing the boat and must have to revise how we do things. Do you guys not use your middle mouse wheel to scroll tracks? For those that consider it minor, unfortunately it's huge for some of us. Especially if you run a business and may have 60-80 tracks with 10 or more buses. Trust me when I tell you, it's been one of the most annoying things for me in this release. I can't say enough good about X3...but this is such a frustrating thing, it makes me seem more negative than I need to be only because of how often I am constantly mouse scrolling tracks....only to have them not end up where I want them. They go right on by, or I get a quarter of a track, or a half of a track...so I either have to make them big where I lose real estate or I use Shift and have to do two mouse scroll clicks to see one track in full view. The smaller I make my tracks, the worse this becomes.
+1
I think that this kind of thing is important to SONAR Users who are trying to work quickly because of time restraints. I've been using Studio One for the simple reason that once I learned where most of the features were located and I got past the "what the frick just happened?" moments, I've been able to track clients and work solo more quickly. That's not to say that Studio One is perfect because it surely is not and there are weaknesses that I have to work around there as well. X3's ARA implementation is a step in the right direction as well as the new comping workflow. I have one particular client who does some pre-production himself in SONAR and he likes to bring a bundle file and use my better mics and pres along with freeing himself to be "artist" instead of engineer. He usually buys five hour blocks so I have to use SONAR from time to time. Me, I don't care what I use as long as I can move fast in it. Having to fiddle with scrolling would be a pain to me in a long session especially if someone is waiting for me to get finished.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/26 12:01:04
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tacman7
I left X2 for S1 some time ago.
Going to give X3 a try.
I notice in S1 I can't scroll up and down unless I click in certain places.
Yes, that is an annoyance to me at times as well. In S1 you have to mouse in what SONAR users would refer to as the Clips Pane. In fairness to the Cakewalk developers, Studio One behaves pretty much in the same fashion as SONAR in this scrolling situation. I've never noticed it because when I am wanting to see single track, I have the mixer view docked at the bottom of the screen with the mixer expanded vertically until it reaches a single horizontal track (which I have sized to fit) in the track view. Using the arrow keys I can scroll up and down the tracks and simultaneously place focus on the displayed track in the mixer. When I scroll in this manner, S1 automatically fills my narrowed track view with a single track. I've done the same sort of in Reaper as well. EDIT: I always believe in fairness so I checked the behavior of X3 and it is (from what I can tell) a match to the way Studio One behaves. Since I haven't done a project in X3, I didn't notice the change. That said, when compared to X2's scrolling behavior, I think the way X2 behaves is the superior option. Now if only X3 could display at least 4 sends in the console.
post edited by Mod Bod - 2013/10/26 12:35:37
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