Dave Modisette
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 20:28:50
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Personally, I don't think it's unreasonable to be able to do something you could do in a previous version that isn't a major redesign.
And even with a major redesign, I don't think that having to click a microscopic button to expose additional sends is a pain. Once again a time wasting operation. I use sends to create additional headphone mixes. Having to scroll around takes time and I've grabbed the wrong send because one channel was scrolled and the next one wasn't.
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gswitz
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 20:30:40
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Respect, zentatonic. I'm done.
I wasn't trying to drive it too far. I thought the gripe deserved to be heard. That's all.
Cake's position is clear and it was never a big deal.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Dude Ivey
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 21:20:22
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☄ Helpfulby Grem 2013/10/29 18:11:31
I have to side with CJay on this. I opened up X-2 and X-3 and opened 24 track project templates and the scrolling in X-2 is Way better and way more efficient. It scrolls exactly 1 track at a time no matter if they are all collapsed or just some it still scrolls 1 track at a time all the way to the last track which stops at the top. X-3 is just messed up! Why would you change something like this? I was scrolling with the mouse wheel. I never scroll any other way.
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Splat 
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 21:35:22
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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stevec
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 22:54:57
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Jlien X
gswitz
In this case, I cannot scroll the track I'm soloing to the place where I have available real-estate.
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You know what he's talking about.
So do I. I don't think that limiting us to scrolling within 1/2 the pane gives us enough credit as users.
Just my opinion. I'm not all worked up about it. Obviously CJ is seriously irritated (he isn't always, you know).
Very good example. Ctrl+Shift+H may still work, but scrolling down would be easier.
Ditto, now I understand. However... if it was me, I would just move a plugin out of the way if I needed to better see that track. Or, maybe use Auto-Zoom. Or set up a screen set.
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 22:56:42
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CJaysMusic
Well that Freaking SUCKS! Why cant you scroll to see one particular track, if there is enough real estate to see it!??!? I mean there is enough track space to see it. You could do this in all the other versions.
So the intended way for this to work is not logical. We already established, there is enough space.. Is that because Cake gave them a certain amount of time to write this screwy code?
I'm not sure what other applications let you scroll your data list when there's ample space to display all data? I know the newer behavior hinders your existing workflow, but your accusation that fractional scrolling is an indicator that SONAR's code is screwy, illogical, or just a development time waste is really off base. The primary 'Why' of this change was to facilitate better lane/comp management and editing within them. In the past 'all' of your working data could potentially go off screen with a single click of the mouse-wheel. Especially when you needed to see another lane/take or an adjacent track and where at particular zoom levels. Dude Ivey
I have to side with CJay on this. I opened up X-2 and X-3 and opened 24 track project templates and the scrolling in X-2 is Way better and way more efficient. It scrolls exactly 1 track at a time no matter if they are all collapsed or just some it still scrolls 1 track at a time all the way to the last track which stops at the top. X-3 is just messed up! Why would you change something like this? I was scrolling with the mouse wheel. I never scroll any other way.
When you introduce lanes this scrolling behavior becomes less efficient as your work space can easily be ripped away from you and the overall UI becomes jumpy and unpleasing. Fractional scrolling is something we've wanted to do for a long time. I had heard about it before we ever had touch support. On my system, 24 tracks can be scrolled through with less than 1 full revolution of the mouse wheel with only 2 full collapsed tracks showing in the track pane. When the pane is larger or full expanded it's requires even less user input. I'm not sure how that's terribly inefficient? stevec
Ditto, now I understand.
However... if it was me, I would just move a plugin out of the way if I needed to better see that track. Or, maybe use Auto-Zoom. Or set up a screen set.
X-Ray helps there too. Though if a user needs to look at that much data at once, they may want to up their screen resolution or expand their overall desktop with a 2nd display.
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Dude Ivey
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 23:35:39
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
CJaysMusic
Well that Freaking SUCKS! Why cant you scroll to see one particular track, if there is enough real estate to see it!??!? I mean there is enough track space to see it. You could do this in all the other versions.
So the intended way for this to work is not logical. We already established, there is enough space.. Is that because Cake gave them a certain amount of time to write this screwy code?
I'm not sure what other applications let you scroll your data list when there's ample space to display all data? I know the newer behavior hinders your existing workflow, but your accusation that fractional scrolling is an indicator that SONAR's code is screwy, illogical, or just a development time waste is really off base.
The primary 'Why' of this change was to facilitate better lane/comp management and editing within them. In the past 'all' of your working data could potentially go off screen with a single click of the mouse-wheel. Especially when you needed to see another lane/take or an adjacent track and where at particular zoom levels.
Dude Ivey
I have to side with CJay on this. I opened up X-2 and X-3 and opened 24 track project templates and the scrolling in X-2 is Way better and way more efficient. It scrolls exactly 1 track at a time no matter if they are all collapsed or just some it still scrolls 1 track at a time all the way to the last track which stops at the top. X-3 is just messed up! Why would you change something like this? I was scrolling with the mouse wheel. I never scroll any other way.
When you introduce lanes this scrolling behavior becomes less efficient as your work space can easily be ripped away from you and the overall UI becomes jumpy and unpleasing. Fractional scrolling is something we've wanted to do for a long time. I had heard about it before we ever had touch support.
On my system, 24 tracks can be scrolled through with less than 1 full revolution of the mouse wheel with only 2 full collapsed tracks showing in the track pane. When the pane is larger or full expanded it's requires even less user input. I'm not sure how that's terribly inefficient?
stevec
Ditto, now I understand.
However... if it was me, I would just move a plugin out of the way if I needed to better see that track. Or, maybe use Auto-Zoom. Or set up a screen set.
X-Ray helps there too. Though if a user needs to look at that much data at once, they may want to up their screen resolution or expand their overall desktop with a 2nd display.
Ok, I never took lanes into account! Now I see your point too. I just tried it with just tracks. I'll try it with lanes too. As far as your mouse scrolling through 24 tracks with one revolution those settings can be changed within windows right? So it will scroll more or less with each click? Not an argument just a question. Thanks for your reply!
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Sanderxpander
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/28 23:55:06
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I have to go with Cakewalk's side of things here, I have been annoyed to no end in the past when I was working and scrolled and my carefully set up visible workspace was gone. But I wonder if it could become a setting somewhere - scroll by track or by pixel or something.
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Dude Ivey
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 00:02:59
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Just tried X-2 and X-3 with lanes open on a few tracks throughout the project (24 tracks) X-2 is flawless in scrolling with mouse wheel. It goes from track to track and lane to lane and track to track flawlessly. The scrolling is better in X-2 than X-3. I'm not dogging X-3 but CJay has a point. I never use X-2 anymore, I use X-3. I love X-3 and will use it until X-4. This is a very minor thing to me but the scrolling with the mouse wheel is better in X-2.
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gswitz
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 07:48:46
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☄ Helpfulby jps 2013/10/29 07:54:15
Seth, I don't have a problem with the fractional scrolling myself. You can hold down shift as Danny described. And I'm not sure, but I think CJs only real beef is with limiting him to 1/2 the available pane when what he wants is the last track at the top without having to reduce the size of the pane to accommodate it. I know you're trying to answer everyone. I personally think fractional scrolling is a win. It helps me. As Danny points out, fractional scrolling in the bus pane doesn't make quite the same amount of sense, but the shift key helps there. A nod that you understand and can imagine how it would be helpful would do it for me. I'm not saying you have to promise to put it back. Just acknowledge the validity of the gripe... this would make us feel heard by you and Cake. BTW, in X2 for me, I don't scroll the last track out of the tracks pane. The last track stops neatly at the top of the pane. It is exactly this that would be a nice option. Part of my reasoning is that I often bounce to tracks and the last track in the project becomes a 'mixdown' track. I regularly need to focus on this mixdown track alone. having it stop in the middle of the screen just isn't as useful. You mention X-Ray and 'get another screen'. I've got 2 screens and I'm still pushed for space. I use apps outside of Sonar like RME DigiCheck and I get bunches of instances of that application running at once. I spread them around and monitor them. So XRay isn't always a choice and even if it was, it's a bandaid. I don't use XRay to monitor two things at once. I use it to get below and get back easily. Thanks for listing the 'Why' but you seemed to give the 'Why' for fractional scrolling rather than the limit to 1/2 the tracks pane. That's the 'Why' I was looking for. Just nod and say you understand. I keep talking because you keep insisting that it is unreasonable.
post edited by gswitz - 2013/10/29 09:15:20
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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lawp
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 08:11:38
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CakeAlexS
I could be wrong but I suspect a lot of this was down to developing the new touch screen functionality and the different way of working.
same thought here, where would a snap scroll leave the user's finger?
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GARYTHEBRIDGE
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 11:10:18
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Hey Danny
Have you tried changing the settings of you scroll function in the windows control panel.
I'm talking about the number of lines for vertical scrolling in mouse properties - Wheel ?
I'm not at home at the moment so can't try it, but it may be worth giving it a go.
Gary
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cmusicmaker
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 11:54:06
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Sanderxpander
I have to go with Cakewalk's side of things here, I have been annoyed to no end in the past when I was working and scrolled and my carefully set up visible workspace was gone. But I wonder if it could become a setting somewhere - scroll by track or by pixel or something.
My thoughts too. I think Cakewalk did the right thing by adding fractional scrolling. It is probably my most sought after feature in X3. But yes maybe some sort of optional preference would help.
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stxx
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 13:38:02
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For all the cool stuff we DID get in X3, it amazes me the nit picking of little stuff. Feel free to move to pro tools!
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mettelus
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 14:00:16
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Now that I better understand the context of this issue, the OP makes more sense, but still find it hard to make it as "earth shattering" as it implies. There are many alternatives, and to focus on "one way" of doing things as the "only way" doesn't make sense. The bakers have tried very hard to allow the users to customize the work flow as much as possible; but since one thing does not meet expectations, that suddenly makes everything else invalid (i.e. the thread title)?
Honestly, we have all had to deal with much more serious issues over the years....
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CJaysMusic
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 14:00:53
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I'm not sure what other applications let you scroll your data list when there's ample space to display all data? Here is a list of the ones i know about. Sonar X2, X1, Sonar 2, Sonar 3, Sonar 4, Sonar 5, Sonar 6, Sonar 7, Sonar 8 and 8.5
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Danny Danzi
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 15:11:17
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stxx
For all the cool stuff we DID get in X3, it amazes me the nit picking of little stuff. Feel free to move to pro tools!
A little harsh, don't you think? It amazes me that people like yourself would have such little remorse for those that own businesses that may be annoyed at what YOU call little stuff. Fractional scrolling isn't in my work-flow for buses. The scrolling CJ mentioned is not in his. When you deal with clients and large track counts on a daily basis, that "little" thing becomes extremely annoying and can become a BIG thing when you don't particularly care for the work-around or the new way that has been implemented. That's all anyone meant to express. Hardly a reason for any of us to go to PT. We expressed our happiness with Sonar and all we got with it. We just don't like that scrolling does not include options that we have been used to for 10+ years. Is that such a crime? -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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spacey
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 15:25:53
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2013/10/30 12:35:13
Danny Danzi
stxx
For all the cool stuff we DID get in X3, it amazes me the nit picking of little stuff. Feel free to move to pro tools!
A little harsh, don't you think? It amazes me that people like yourself would have such little remorse for those that own businesses that may be annoyed at what YOU call little stuff. Fractional scrolling isn't in my work-flow for buses. The scrolling CJ mentioned is not in his. When you deal with clients and large track counts on a daily basis, that "little" thing becomes extremely annoying and can become a BIG thing when you don't particularly care for the work-around or the new way that has been implemented. That's all anyone meant to express. Hardly a reason for any of us to go to PT. We expressed our happiness with Sonar and all we got with it. We just don't like that scrolling does not include options that we have been used to for 10+ years. Is that such a crime?
-Danny
Power users suggestions/points of interest combined with a Cakewalk production team that listens to users are good things. Personally it helps me learn when folks mention recording function/feature specifics, existing or not.
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D K
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 16:17:15
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stxx
For all the cool stuff we DID get in X3, it amazes me the nit picking of little stuff. Feel free to move to pro tools!
These are the kinds of responses that drove myself and many others away from this forum and subsequently the Sonar X series (program notwithstanding) for a longtime. Is this really necessary or helpful? How does this help the Bakers know what folks (especially professional users like Danny and CJ and others) need and want in the program? Or how does it highlight the possible workarounds others may have for the same issue? Praises have been heaped by many on X3..including my own.. but can we not even have a dialog about the perceived weaknesses without the "you can just take your ball home and leave our court" type "answers"? Think we should be past this kind of stuff by now..
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stevec
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 16:34:34
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This thread certainly has run the gamut, from "move on to PT" to "we pay for upgrades, not downgrades!!!". Bring on X3c, and d, and.. 
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mettelus
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 17:33:37
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+1
The issues are explained and pretty much everyone has seen it and understands them now. I really liked how Danny posted the video of what he was talking about. Only patches can change these though...
D K has a valid point, which depresses me as well... people using social media to rally an army to their cause when it left the chute in an antagonistic manner tends to attract people like starving wolves to the last hot dog on earth. Eventually, people start throwing rocks... and this just distracts from the valid points that were made :(
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Grem
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 17:40:58
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Danny Danzi
I just really REALLY wish the guys that have the power to say "this is what we'll put into the next version" would stop removing things from us. In place of removing, give us additional options to use the DAW the way WE want instead of how THEY want us to use it.
-Danny
Danny I really think that the majority of the changes that most of the "workers" that use Sonar for a business find "out of whack" had to do with the change to the GUI "Skylight." Looking back on it I believe it was an attempt by CW to lay the foundation for things to come. When Sonar came out I didn't get it because it was just to different than PA. And I had just learned it and I wasn't going to learn this all over again. Then I got Sonar 5. And I liked it. Realized I had missed the boat on the Sonar thing and said lesson learned. So when X1 came out, I said to myself, I'm throwing all the old stuff away and starting this anew. It's taken a while but I am just now getting use to the X series. Example, I have two monitors on my music pc. But on the home pc (which I have X2 & 3 on) I only have one screen. Never thought I would be happy with one screen, but with the new Skylight interface, and forcing myself to use it, I can see getting one big monitor in the future. Touch screen? I don't know about that! But I am open. Now after saying all this, just know that if I had to do this for my job to get paid to make the house note, food, bills, I would have stayed with 8.5.3 as the main workhorse. Back OT: Why won't the TV scroll to the last trk on top because of fractional scrolling? I'm not getting that. Is this a limitation of fractional scrolling?
post edited by Grem - 2013/10/29 18:25:46
Grem
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SuperG
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 18:48:45
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Paul P
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/29 23:58:19
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mettelus
The issues are explained and pretty much everyone has seen it and understands them now. I really liked how Danny posted the video of what he was talking about. Only patches can change these though...
Having worked in editor development, and having had the gall to explain to executive secretaries that mice were really better than their keyboard shortcuts, I know that the worst thing you can do to someone is change a part of the UI that they use heavily. It doesn't matter if you or a thousand people think the new way is better - it isn't for the user. The usual way to handle this situation is to *maintain* a certain number of prior versions for a reasonable number of years. The patches I believe mettelus is talking about. Microsoft still regularly updates XP. Cakewalk stopped maintaining X2 a month after its release.
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Splat
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/30 00:11:33
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M$ actually stops support for XP in 5 months time. Unfortunately maintaining previous versions is becoming less the norm nowadays as doing this is expensive on low profit margins. Adobe for instance have changed over to a subscription system. I wouldn't expect support for a software product after two years myself (except for an OS). I agree X2 should have had more patches however X3 has made up for that. Just blame Roland on X2 and move on...
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vicsant
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/30 08:13:48
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Danny
Pls post the video in you tube and put up a link. I can't seem to download the video from dropbox. Thanks
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lespattes
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/10/30 15:23:34
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MacBook Pro 13"- Mid 2010 Windows7 Ultimate 64bit (BootCamp) Sonar X3 Producer 64bit Presonus inspire 1394 Intel Core 2 Duo a 2.4 GHz 8GB DDR3 500GB SSD Samsung Evo nVidia GeForce 320M
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CJaysMusic
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/11/02 12:18:02
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This thread certainly has run the gamut, from "move on to PT" to "we pay for upgrades, not downgrades!!!".
Bring on X3c, and d, and.. Yes it has, Hopefully the new updates will actually be upgrades and not downgrades. This taking 1 step forward and 2 steps backwards is not how you upgrade programs. CJ
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Zo
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2013/11/02 13:26:30
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CJaysMusic
This thread certainly has run the gamut, from "move on to PT" to "we pay for upgrades, not downgrades!!!".
Bring on X3c, and d, and..
Yes it has, Hopefully the new updates will actually be upgrades and not downgrades. This taking 1 step forward and 2 steps backwards is not how you upgrade programs.
CJ
Danny and CJ ....accept my gift , i give you my car ... for moving from the forum safely .....ahahah , seems like the forum road is not as safe as it used to be amigos ;) 
For sale (PM me) : transfert ilok includedEventide Ultrachannel make offersSoftube Summit EQIK Neve 1081 , Neve precision Comp/LimEastWest GoshtwriterSoundforge Pro 12
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jm24
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Re: I'm Disapointed in X3
2014/05/03 09:20:36
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X3e As expected this lost feature is still so.
Another work-a-round: add a blank track to the bottom and adjust.
Who is the keeper of "The List of Word-A-Rounds?"
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