brendantownsend
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 13:29:24
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Well the wonderful thing about "P5 and the Groove Matrix" (cool name for a band no?) is that the two can co-exist with ease and precision. Yes  and...yes, though I think it comes down to what you are trying to do, and not forgetting of-course that audio loops need to be Acid'ised to be suitably flexible with arbitrary shifts in P5 tempo. I use both Sonar 4 and P5 (still getting to grips with ReWire capabilities and quirks though). I find that Project is great for quickly trying out loops, whether they be audio or MIDI, and trying different combinations and sequencies for inspiration. For myself there's no substitute for trying different combinations from the Groove Matrix. Once I'm happy with the combination then I transplant the MIDI loops into Sonar and build on that, though will often substitute audio loops for MIDI-based equivalents in the interests of sound quality - unless they're particularly good. Trouble is... I'm getting so many ideas from P5 that I've got too many projects on the go to complete before I lose that "creative" thread, so they'll probably end up being something completely different in the end.  Not quite a perfect medium but who cares? - great fun! Brendan.
______________________________________________ S6Pro; P5v2; XV-5080; V-Drums+SPD11; 2x Delta 1010; Soundcraft 24ch; TC M3000 Reverb; Keystation Pro88; Alesis M1Active 620; Dual 3.2GHz 2+2MB; 4GB 800MHz XMS-2; 5x 10krpm HDD; RAID-0; XP PRO & 64
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Johnny1982
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 13:32:12
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About the Midi Being Dead Issue...
I know it's 8-bit and all that stuff...
but
...can our fingers be faster yet? hahaha.
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MurderDethKill
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 15:49:56
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:10:
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 18:14:28
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btw: you'll get the first one before anyone else, if your ftp site is still up woo hoo.... yep..its still up. and i still plan on making the :self: project. just need some time to myself for a bit.  looking forward to it.
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rjt
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 19:34:13
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My answer to your original title question is: "No."
Take Care
Talk is cheap; supply outweighs the demand. Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people look bright before you hear them speak. Jerry Jones bought the Dallas Cowboys, Andy Reid owns them!!
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audell
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 20:50:35
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Sure, the MIDI physical connection is obsolete and slow as hell, but the protocol was really well-thought and it could last for another 20 years.
IMO the best solution would be the same protocol over a newer connection (ie.- LAN or USB) which could support several virtual MIDI ports, and special converters being sold for compatibility with older gear. Something like 1 USB MIDI IN routed to 8 DIN MIDI OUT's. Kinda like a MIDI patchbay. Isn't that ewhat Yamaha's MLAN was all about? On connection carrying the Midi Protocol and Digital audio and everything...over long cable runs? Al-X P5v2 fan
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MurderDethKill
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 23:14:07
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but maybe wireless? 
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fac
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/06 08:53:04
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ORIGINAL: audell
Sure, the MIDI physical connection is obsolete and slow as hell, but the protocol was really well-thought and it could last for another 20 years.
IMO the best solution would be the same protocol over a newer connection (ie.- LAN or USB) which could support several virtual MIDI ports, and special converters being sold for compatibility with older gear. Something like 1 USB MIDI IN routed to 8 DIN MIDI OUT's. Kinda like a MIDI patchbay.
Isn't that ewhat Yamaha's MLAN was all about?
On connection carrying the Midi Protocol and Digital audio and everything...over long cable runs?
Supposedly so, but it hasn't taken off.
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fraz
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/06 09:28:21
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Bonjour,
MIDI is not dead. If it was to become dead what would replace it?
Regards
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Bill51
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/06 17:10:25
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Isn't it time the industry abandoned the old serial interfaces and came up with MIDI 2? The interface has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. Maybe youshould know what you're talking about before you start a rant. BTW, USB and FW are SERIAL interfaces.
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fac
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/06 17:12:31
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ORIGINAL: Bill51
BTW, USB and FW are SERIAL interfaces.
Yeah, so is LAN.
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MurderDethKill
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/07 18:00:03
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ORIGINAL: Bill51
The interface has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. Maybe youshould know what you're talking about before you start a rant.
BTW, USB and FW are SERIAL interfaces.
If I offended you, I'm sorry. My intent was not to *rant* as you so adroitly put it... rather to draw observations and opinions from the various veiwers of this forum (all users of midi to some degree) as to their perceptions on the current inception of the "midi" standard, and it's implimentation throughout the industry. It was, innocently enough, a question. BTW, thank you for correcting a partially incorrect statement I made. What I should have said (in the sentence you quote) was "Isn't it time the industry abandon the 5 pin DIN connector cable in favor of something "slightly" faster, and at a greater bandwidth." You are correct when you point out that USB (I and II), Firewire, and LAN are serial interfaces. I would also point out that the Midi spec also has an expanding group of subsets such as XMF, SMF, MSC, SP-MIDI, MDLS/XMF, Midi Tuning, etc., that it didn't have a couple of years ago. WinFX will soon be implemented via Microsoft's next version of Windows, perhaps replacing or expanding the DXi standard. That will affect the soft-synth DAW side of MIDI. MIDI is changing. The question is, perhaps, where is it going? As far as I'm concerned, in a few years it's going everywhere...but maybe not in a form that are we currently aware of, or are used to... oh well....
post edited by MurderDethKill - 2005/08/07 18:08:17
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/07 18:16:46
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is midi dead? yep it is as far as i'm concerned anything 8 bit is dead. but then again i like playing with dead things. must be that Lakota blood. that is kinda a joke an anthropologist once asked a Lakota medicine man why he liked having so many dead things around. the old man looked around and realized for the first time he did indeed have a lot of dead things around.
post edited by rabeach - 2005/08/08 01:46:17
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brendantownsend
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/07 20:38:49
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To suggest that MIDI is dead is to suggest that the majority of musicians the world over are now using some credible universally-adopted alternative. I think not! First, in suggesting what is dead, I think it's necessary to make the distinction between MIDI protocols and MIDI hardware, though even there we use both - for our keyboards and synth modules in a plethora of different forms and functions. I for one jointly use soft-synths primarily in Project 5v2, rewired to Sonar 4 to simultaneously sync and control my XV-5080 via MIDI. To-date the only type of software that does not provide for MIDI is the sort of two-bit commercial rubbish where you can create music (LOL) by dragging and dropping loops into a sequencer bar with your mouse. Stuff like this is not what I believe most professionals would choose to base their artistry upon. If I were to try to do all that I do in software alone, with sizeable high-quality samples, then my system would quickly grind to a shuddering halt, so I may then alternatively decide to share the load with further PC's (e.g. if using EWSO Platinum for example - where they recommend a minimum of four high-spec PC's for full effect in rich orchestrations). Nevertheless, all that power is still designed to be interfaced by MIDI as the most common means. To achieve this then I certainly wouldn't use daisy-chained MIDI in/out due to possible latency concerns brought about by limited multi-channel serial data multiplexed through an unmatched MIDI cable, though I could simply drive control messages via my USB-coupled Midisport and feed each peripheral/PC with a dedicated MIDI cable, with acres of headroom to spare on each. I believe that this simple get-around is what most might use if data speed were a particular concern, and perhaps the reason why there is nothing really pushing for something significantly different as in reality it isn't actually needed for most applications. If one were to question whether existing MIDI could, in areas, be improved upon with today's computers and interfaces then the answer would undoubtedly be a resounding "yes", though with global dependency on it and simple common work-around configurations, then there is neither a clear leader driving a global shift or sufficient market pull to demand one. If the question remains of whether MIDI is dead or not, then I suggest that someone kick off a poll with the following questions...
- Do you use MIDI protocols to control your soft-synths?
- Do you use MIDI cables to connect your hardware?
- Do you anticipate changing away from MIDI for most of your software and hardware within the next five years?
I think can guess what the outcome would be - far from dead  Brendan.
post edited by brendantownsend - 2005/08/07 20:59:11
______________________________________________ S6Pro; P5v2; XV-5080; V-Drums+SPD11; 2x Delta 1010; Soundcraft 24ch; TC M3000 Reverb; Keystation Pro88; Alesis M1Active 620; Dual 3.2GHz 2+2MB; 4GB 800MHz XMS-2; 5x 10krpm HDD; RAID-0; XP PRO & 64
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 01:45:35
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To suggest that MIDI is dead is to suggest that the majority of musicians the world over are now using some credible universally-adopted alternative. i think not i define dead as 8bit not what anybody is doing or using :-) i use midi everyday. it is dead to me. it is not fixable and not going to be replaced until 2031. but it is still dead to me.
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brendantownsend
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 03:57:07
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Hi Rabeach I catch your drift now is midi dead? yep it is as far as i'm concerned anything 8 bit is dead. but then again i like playing with dead things. I think there's a medical term for this but I don't think it's got anything to do with playing music Brendan.
______________________________________________ S6Pro; P5v2; XV-5080; V-Drums+SPD11; 2x Delta 1010; Soundcraft 24ch; TC M3000 Reverb; Keystation Pro88; Alesis M1Active 620; Dual 3.2GHz 2+2MB; 4GB 800MHz XMS-2; 5x 10krpm HDD; RAID-0; XP PRO & 64
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 07:58:47
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lol........
bring peace to this world eat a dinosaur
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fac
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 10:38:54
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ORIGINAL: rabeach
i think not i define dead as 8bit not what anybody is doing or using :-)
With all respect but that's like saying all things based on a decimal digit are dead.
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 11:18:00
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fac show me a base-10 computer or base-10 based protocol. (actually we are very likely to see base-3, 4, and 5 cpu within the next 2 to 3 decades) here in the usa we use an antiquated method of quantity measurement. it sent a multimillion dollar spacecraft project to mars into a ball of fire. the usa has steadfastly refused metrics. is there any rational behind that. not to me though as far as i'm concerned the english systems of measurement is dead. but it is still used daily here. in work i have to use metric. in a social environment i must use the english system. midi is great for what it does but it is stuck at 8bit in a 32bit world that longs for 64, 128, and 256 bits.
'base-10 based' band name or song title????:-)
this the first time i sent a post that did not go through. had to rewrite from memory so if it eventually repeats it was not intentional
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fac
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 12:39:02
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ORIGINAL: rabeach
fac show me a base-10 computer or base-10 based protocol. (actually we are very likely to see base-3, 4, and 5 cpu within the next 2 to 3 decades) here in the usa we use an antiquated method of quantity measurement. it sent a multimillion dollar spacecraft project to mars into a ball of fire. the usa has steadfastly refused metrics. is there any rational behind that. not to me though as far as i'm concerned the english systems of measurement is dead. but it is still used daily here. in work i have to use metric. in a social environment i must use the english system. midi is great for what it does but it is stuck at 8bit in a 32bit world that longs for 64, 128, and 256 bits. I didn't mean there were base-10 computers. What I meant is that word length doesn't make something obsolete or not. 8-bit numbers are still very important and widely used in several applications: ASCII codes, RGB components, boolean values, etc. Just because now we have 32-bit registers doesn't mean we have to waste memory using 4 bytes to represent something that can be stored in only one byte. MIDI is not obsolete because it is an "8-bit protocol". It is obsolete mainly because the standard hardware is too slow compared with today's standards. MIDI as a protocol can handle 7-bit controllers, 14-bit controllers, and multibyte messages with no problem. That's more than enough for music applications. However, a slow connection means that you can't send a bunch of these messages without having a noticeable latency. So what benefit would you obtain from having a 32-bit MIDI protocol ?
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DayDrumFour
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 12:44:43
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Okay, I get it now. You guys have all convinced me that the protocol won't die soon. I take back part of my earlier post. However, the "one box does all" concept IS the future. Fifteen years ago my MIDI rig was synths, drum machines and rack samplers working together to give me an awesome 180+ keyboard sounds and over 50 seconds of sampling time. I also had a "Midiverb". What the  was I supposed to do with Midi ports on a reverb!! Anyway, it's all coming out of one box now folks. CPU growth alone tells us that. Whatever you read on your screen, it will just be one big screen. Not a bunch of little green backlit LCDs all over your music room. That concept WILL die soon. Midiverb. Good lord.
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fac
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 14:28:54
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ORIGINAL: DayDrumFour
I also had a "Midiverb". What the was I supposed to do with Midi ports on a reverb!!
Changing programs? Automating parameters in realtime? Gating the reverb at your own will? Transferring programs to another unit? Build a program library? Saving reverb settings in your sequencer along with your project?
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 14:44:16
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speed up the connection 8bit still prevents midi from doing several things and you are never going to get around that. coarse/fine is no substitute for 32,768 or greater quantization levels. midi is what it is and will never be any more because of the limitation imposed by the standard. that is all i'm saying. the standard unfortunately was not created with expansion beyond the 8bit structure in mind. ascii has so many limitations you could write a dissertation on them.
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 14:46:21
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So what benefit would you obtain from having a 32-bit MIDI protocol ? real time non-linear curve control.
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fac
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 14:58:59
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speed up the connection 8bit still prevents midi from doing several things such as? coarse/fine is no substitute for 32,768 or greater quantization levels 14-bit controllers have 16,384 levels. I really doubt anyone needs more than that. ORIGINAL: rabeach
real time non-linear curve control.
What is that? And why can that not be done with 7 or 14-bit controllers?
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 21:04:19
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shortest distance between two points is a straight line (well actually it's folded space but..) therefore 127 (edit...i ignored the zero level, and i should have not, it is 128 levels) quantization levels may be smooth to the human model (human hearing) a non-linear curve poses a problem with only 127 points as it is not smooth to the human model. please explain about the 14bit control in more detail as i am not extremely knowledgeable in the midi spec. my bias about 8bit protocols is a result of dealing with real time control scenarios not related to music. if the smaller bit structure is absolutely adequate and can contain all required data then in real time control, smaller is better. but i do believe you are not going to get smooth curves with 127 quantization levels. of course you can always bounce to audio and get very smooth curves. also is the midi spec a non-deterministic or deterministic protocol. even with high speed distribution this could be a major issue. technology may ultimately render the problem moot. i'm thinking about the future (sensors monitoring every aspect of the human metabolism, motion etc. and being utilized to control and shape electronic music) and i believe you are in a position to see that the current midi protocol is not even being fully utilized so you feel it is adequate. and it may very well be. no offence if that observation was incorrect as i have a great respect for you and all members on this board. any way i'm old forgetful grouchy sometimes force myself to the limit of what my metabolism can tolerate (doing with out sleep and food) which often results in my posting the most ludicrous things. and for now i give up. :-) long live midi. may it's glorious luster luminosity radiance and inner beauty shine down upon us all.
post edited by rabeach - 2005/08/09 07:58:09
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b rock
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 21:59:44
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The first 32 pairs of MIDI CC#s are designated as double-precision [14-bit] controllers, using 0-31 decimal for the most significant bytes, and 32-63 as LSBs. You'll have a hard time finding a controller capable of implementing that, or an app that supports it. Bank Change might be the exception. The majority of the time, control messages like Mod Wheel, Channel Volume, Expression and the rest of the 'designated' CC#s in this range are treated as 8-bit, using only the MSB. The rest of the 128 CC#s (with some caveats) are also 8-bit. I might not need 16,384 levels, but I do want more than 128 (or less; given the resolution found in some controller sliders and knobs).
Best bet for now is to sacrifice pitchbend for high-res, as most manufacturer's give up at least that much. [P5 seems to resolve to a minimum of 8-level PB jumps at a clip]. Why are the high-resolution controllers remaining unimplemented? Simple: money and demand. We as a group don't scratch the surface of the MIDI spec, or we remain uneducated or silent about it, or simply could care less. Maybe a mod wheel here; a filter sweep there, and that's it. We don't use MIDI fully.
No manufacturer needs to step up, because there's no huge market for it. Thankfully, some of that is changing, with all of the new controllers touting aftertouch, or even some with polyphonic key aftertouch. But as long as we're not showing anyone that we need more, there'll be no great push for it. It's somewhat of a miracle that the MIDI standard even came into existence when it did, and I think that it'd be more difficult to attempt that sort of revolution today. You'd spend all your time trying to get the old ladies on ther bus, and you never would get to the Bingo parlor. Those "strategic alliances" of hardware/software only complicate matters more.
I've been on both sides of this equation at one time or another. In one sense, the MIDI spec is in desperate need of an overhaul. I think it's time that we can free up CC#3 from "Early DX7 Aftertouch" status, don't you think? But in another way the spec is very forward thinking, and xRPNs, MMC, and other parts of Sysex remain virtually untouched.
Users create the demand for features, but there has to be some serious jack at stake to nudge the manufacturers from the cheap & safe path. They've got a heavy investment that favors the status quo, and it's going to take a killer app/controller to shake up the system. Hardware controllers could wring more life out of MIDI yet, using programmable curve filters, EGs or LFOs onboard to transmit and modify CC messages at the source, before the app. We've just got to get their attention first ...
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CloudWalker
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/08 22:00:49
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Saying MIDI is dead is kinda like saying cassetts and cassett players are dead. CD have now replaced cassetes and are much easier to use. BUT, you can still use cassetts and alot of people do. I feel this relates to MIDI 100%. Usb, firewire, etc. have replaced MIDI recently, as CDs have cassetts. Though you can still use MIDI, if you want to. Hope I havn't made up a bunch of non-sense! -C W
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rabeach
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/09 07:27:30
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everybody has their own definition of dead. and mine says cassette players are dead. yes they are in use but i have absolutely no reason to go out and buy a new one today. the market is small. and very little to no development in new cassette technology is occurring today. it is dead to me because i'm an engineer and it currently has no substantial or significant amount of engineering being applied to it's redesign and continued development. can you imagine what kind of cassette could be built today if all of our engineering focus was on cassette innovations and development. edit...b rock i will read and digest your post carefully latter today as usual it is packed with observations and information. must have espresso.
post edited by rabeach - 2005/08/09 07:35:41
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Huves
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RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/09 07:52:39
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ORIGINAL: CloudWalker
I feel this relates to MIDI 100%. Usb, firewire, etc. have replaced MIDI recently, as CDs have cassetts. Though you can still use MIDI, if you want to.
I can't use MIDI if I want to...I have to use MIDI. I use a lot of Outboard Equipment such as Synths, Effects etc...There is no USB or firewire. Do you think people will through away their 10000$ synths? MIDI isn't dead, most of (young?) producers didn't know much about MIDI because they have no outboard equipment.
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