MurderDethKill
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1904
- Joined: 2005/02/13 15:46:22
- Location: Houston_we_have_a_Problem_here...
- Status: offline
IS MIDI DEAD?
C'mon, let's face it! MIDI for all practical purposes is Dead, isn't it? It's an old serial protocol that we used to use to communicate with (soon to be expired) outboard synths (it's only a matter of time  ). Most of the controllers that are out there now operate through USB or Firewire and are setup to be "backwarts midi compatible." Isn't it time the industry abandoned the old serial interfaces and came up with MIDI 2? Isn't that what we are doing already what with soft synths, DAW's, etc., anyway? Just my opinion, but it's a question that needs to be addressed. What do you think, folks? Yes, you  !!!! Let us hear your opinion. Is this what you think? If not why?  set me straight!!! 
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/03 20:17:35
(permalink)
it is not likely to happen anytime soon as there is no easy way to get away from it. if it was an ieee standard there would likely be an easier avenue to modify for future needs. the 8bit must go and being backward compatible is going to be probably impossible. so throw the old away start fresh....and that is not likely to happen anytime soon....because it must be embraced by everyone. imo
|
Guest
Max Output Level: -25.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4951
- Joined: 2009/08/03 10:50:51
- Status: online
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/03 20:40:48
(permalink)
do you mean the protocol or the DIN connector? .. i don't think the protocol is going anywhere
for a long time ... the DIN connector .. not sure about that either .. they've been
proclaiming it's demise for 10 years or better. But, I can say I don't buy much MIDI gear
unless it's got MIDI-2 on it.....
jeff
|
MurderDethKill
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1904
- Joined: 2005/02/13 15:46:22
- Location: Houston_we_have_a_Problem_here...
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/03 23:00:30
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: rabeach
if it was an ieee standard there would likely be an easier avenue to modify for future needs. But that's my point entirely Rob, isn't it time for the Midi coalition to define a Midi II (III?) standard perhaps using the very protocols your talking about, much like USB I and II ? ORIGINAL: jmarkham
do you mean the protocol or the DIN connector? .. i don't think the protocol is going anywhere
for a long time ... the DIN connector .. not sure about that either .. they've been
proclaiming it's demise for 10 years or better.
I mean both, Jeff, the protocol and the DIN connector. I think it's time the heavyweights got together and re-defined both. Wow, imagine the possibilities!!! Were talkin 21st century stuff here!!! I may not be able to have my flying car (yet!!!), but I think it's high time for a new standard and for a new version of midi to meet the challenges of tomorrow. What do you think? What should it contain?  the mind reels...
post edited by MurderDethKill - 2005/08/03 23:06:35
|
b rock
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8717
- Joined: 2003/12/07 20:31:48
- Location: Anytown (South of Miami), U.S.A.
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 00:22:20
(permalink)
IS MIDI DEAD? Geez, I hope not. Anyone know of a good cosmetologist that specializes in removal of MIDI tattoos from foreheads? MIDI for all practical purposes is Dead, isn't it? No, it's just been in a prolonged 20-year coma. I promise a more reasoned and serious reply when the daylight hours hit.
|
DayDrumFour
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1112
- Joined: 2005/05/10 02:43:34
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 00:24:56
(permalink)
There's probably no point in updating MIDI. The need for it may already be dead. The purpose of MIDI was to make different company's "boxes" work together in ways that made your system more capable.
Today, whether you have a $3,000 keyboard workstation or a softsynth environment like P5v2, you can pretty much get it all done without jacking up to something else.
If anything, the MIDI concept was replaced by ideas like ReWire and Acidizing files.
|
Guest
Max Output Level: -25.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4951
- Joined: 2009/08/03 10:50:51
- Status: online
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 00:36:12
(permalink)
What do you think? What should it contain? i really don't have that much problem with the protocol .. i mean it's been revised and refined for nearly twenty-five years. There's not a whole it can't do in the synthesizer or sampler control space. There were some significant opportunities to unify and standardize some things which were missed (like no real bank standards ... to speak of). There are a few limitations (16 channels, limited velocity info, etc.) .. but there are deficiencies with just about every standard. I think a more modern version would be kind of what the AAF ( Advanced Authoriing Format Association) is trying to do .. unify various multi-media into one standard. I mean it would be kind of cool to have a format which could encapsulate all aspects of a performance and/or multimedia event. But MIDI is likely to be around .. encapsulated inside AAF in one form or another. We'll have to see where AAF goes and how many companies jump on-board. Sony is squarely on .. as is Digi ... I think Steinberg is .. Cakewalk .. not so sure .... jeff
|
Locopomo2
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 200
- Joined: 2003/12/22 16:54:13
- Location: Stirling, Scotland
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 02:36:50
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MurderDethKill
C'mon, let's face it! MIDI for all practical purposes is Dead, isn't it? It's an old serial protocol that we used to use to communicate with (soon to be expired) outboard synths
Now you're just depressing me - I remember the thrill of buying my first MIDI-equipped synth. Of course, back then you had to take the ticker tape from the Univax and hand-feed it into the DX7's MIDI port (while the singer kept the audience happy with small talk) 
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn Pro" - Hunter S Thompson
|
brendantownsend
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 279
- Joined: 2005/01/12 19:23:55
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 05:23:07
(permalink)
I'm just wondering that whether with all of the popularity of MIDI then it won't just be improved upon by a collective shift in the means of interface. By this I mean wireless connectivity which would bring an increase in bandwidth in addition to wireless instrumentation. It sure is a pain trying to keep everything tidy and portable with bunches of wires hanging around, though wireless connectivity with perhaps backwards compatibility to the old standard would provide that migratory step. If we can achieve that with voice and video streaming along with everything else, then I'm sure there'll be plenty of bandwidth and capability for signalling overheads and the usual low-level error-correction which can be achieved in much less time than acceptated latency (etc).
I believe it's the outdated protocols that are now too restrictive, whereas nowadays you can achieve far more through a single connection - either wireless or USB for example. The only reason why MIDI has been around for so long is because it was carefully thought out over many years as Jmarkham mentioned, and the reason why I also believe that it will be around in one guise or another for quite some time to come.
Brendan.
______________________________________________ S6Pro; P5v2; XV-5080; V-Drums+SPD11; 2x Delta 1010; Soundcraft 24ch; TC M3000 Reverb; Keystation Pro88; Alesis M1Active 620; Dual 3.2GHz 2+2MB; 4GB 800MHz XMS-2; 5x 10krpm HDD; RAID-0; XP PRO & 64
|
b rock
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8717
- Joined: 2003/12/07 20:31:48
- Location: Anytown (South of Miami), U.S.A.
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 05:38:32
(permalink)
Of course, back then you had to take the ticker tape from the Univax and hand-feed it into the DX7's MIDI port (LMFAO! You guys crack me up.) So it's you, Kenneth, that's been the lone holdout! C'mon, the upgrade to Fortran punchcards has been available now for nearly a quarter-century. Please install it (it's now on cassette tape) so that we can have CC#3 & #34 back [Early DX7 Aftertouch] in the next MIDI spec revision (due out in 2023). It's not daylight yet; my serious reply is still coming ...
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 06:04:51
(permalink)
Fortran punchcards god one little mistake and the whole state of south carolina went down clemson university 1976 rabeach freshman fortran programmer. ooops! they had a big red button and a flashing red light and a grad student who sat there just to push the big red button when a freshman screwed up. the whole state used that massive computer for all state related work. well he was in the bathroom. so i pushed that baby it was the only thing in the room flashing not only did i not get chewed out for screwing up got a job offer first freshman allowed to sit and push the big red button. until you have used a cardpunch you don't know what computers really are. hey we had one of the last analog computers there for research. very cool think of 2 raised to the power of the spead of light and you'll know what i'm talkin about. that is the way to go analog computers hey but just like tubes only the nsa uses em. :-)
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 06:07:35
(permalink)
But that's my point entirely Rob, isn't it time for the Midi coalition to define a Midi II (III?) standard perhaps using the very protocols your talking about, much like USB I and II ? no wiggle room must start from scratch. not going to happen anytime soon. imo. wish it would though.
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 06:17:33
(permalink)
There's not a whole it can't do in the synthesizer
or sampler control space. midi biggest problem 2 to the power of 7 not enough quantization levels. only 128 levels; 0 - 127.
|
Guest
Max Output Level: -25.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4951
- Joined: 2009/08/03 10:50:51
- Status: online
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 10:32:17
(permalink)
I believe it's the outdated protocols that are now too restrictive, whereas nowadays you can achieve far more through a single connection - either wireless or USB for example. that's why i'm trying to make the distinction between the protocol and the carrier/format. there's no reason that midi couldn't be delivered over bluetooth or whatever wireless you would like .. including cell phone carriers. there are already products which carry midi over standard TCP/IP .. and therefore WiFi. Perhaps it's low-bandwidth origins may actually be of benefit in the collaborative space .... hmm wouldn't that be an interesting addition to P5 (peer to peer or multicast jam sessions ;-) ). jeff
|
fac
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2427
- Joined: 2004/06/15 10:08:48
- Location: San Luis Potosi, Mexico
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 10:43:11
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: rabeach
There's not a whole it can't do in the synthesizer
or sampler control space.
midi biggest problem 2 to the power of 7 not enough quantization levels. only 128 levels; 0 - 127.
That's not MIDI's problem. The MIDI protocol easily allows 14-bit controllers to be defined (as a coarse/fine pair), however, very few controllers and synths implement 14-bit controllers. Don't blame the protocol, blame the lazy manufacturers. MIDI is far from dead. Surely not for those who still use hardware, but not even who only use softsynths, as they also follow the MIDI protocol. Sure, the MIDI physical connection is obsolete and slow as hell, but the protocol was really well-thought and it could last for another 20 years. IMO the best solution would be the same protocol over a newer connection (ie.- LAN or USB) which could support several virtual MIDI ports, and special converters being sold for compatibility with older gear. Something like 1 USB MIDI IN routed to 8 DIN MIDI OUT's. Kinda like a MIDI patchbay.
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 12:25:28
(permalink)
That's not MIDI's problem. The MIDI protocol easily allows 14-bit controllers to be defined (as a coarse/fine pair), however, very few controllers and synths implement 14-bit controllers. good point but are they using 2, 8 bit registers to perform this. i assuming they are. if so the protocol suffers from increased overhead resulting in less efficiency. i'm getting killed in the market so my head is not here right now. but coarse/fine does not seem like it would offer an equivalent resolution as 15 bit would from a 16 bit register which would give 32,768 quantization levels. and certainly would seem to be much easier to implement via soft synth manufactures than coarse/fine using data from 2 registers.
|
fac
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2427
- Joined: 2004/06/15 10:08:48
- Location: San Luis Potosi, Mexico
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 12:56:26
(permalink)
What synth developers have to do is use smoothing techniques for every parameter that is MIDI controllable. This way if you use a 7-bit controller and you go from 50 to 51, the actual parameter might go from 5000 to 5100 smoothly and you don't hear stepping. Some synths already include this: Virus, ION, and many others. In most cases, this is enough. In other cases, a 14-bit coarse/fine controller may be needed.
You are absolutely right about coarse/fine controllers implying a higher overhead, but not as much as it initially seems. For example, imagine a 14-bit filter sweep. The controller sends the coarse value and the fine value to the synth: that's two MIDI CC messages. Then it only sends fine values until it reaches the next coarse level, so it doesn't really send 2 MIDI CC's each time. Plus you save a lot of bytes because of running status (as long as you keep sending MIDI CC's only). Really, MIDI is a pretty fine protocol.
Now, if there was a standard to run MIDI over a LAN or USB connection, the coarse/fine overhead would not be important at all. Softsynth developers should have nothing to worry about because handling coarse/fine is very easy and only requires a couple of binary operations.
|
MysticMizer
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 402
- Joined: 2004/08/14 18:09:37
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 13:16:33
(permalink)
When I think of Midi I think of step sequencing and device communication as opposed to the connector.
I was thinking just the other day that it would be great if there were wider spread availability of midi-based drum loops as opposed to audio loops. Given that P5 has one of the most intuitive midi editors I have ever seen, it would be great to be able to quickly taylor canned GM sequences such as the ones provided with the program as oppose to building them from scratch.
From that POV I don't think "midi" is dead by a long shot. The interface may be obsolete, but as far as a communication protocol is concerned, I don't see where there would be any profit (or need) to re-invent the wheel.
It's kinda like asking if television is dead isn't it? The manual channel changer is obsolete, the antenna is next on the list, and CRT's will be a thing of the past in a decade or so....but television is well..... television.
Same thing with midi.
|
fac
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2427
- Joined: 2004/06/15 10:08:48
- Location: San Luis Potosi, Mexico
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 13:34:22
(permalink)
It's kinda like asking if television is dead isn't it? The manual channel changer is obsolete, the antenna is next on the list, and CRT's will be a thing of the past in a decade or so....but television is well..... television.
Same thing with midi. Except MIDI doesn't turn you into an idiot
post edited by fac - 2005/08/04 13:39:28
|
mike85021
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1532
- Joined: 2004/01/12 20:16:47
- Location: Phoenix AZ
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 13:48:39
(permalink)
Except MIDI doesn't turn you into an idiot Oh, i think there are some exception to that!
|
dgkenney
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 267
- Joined: 2003/11/05 20:30:19
- Location: California
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 14:09:00
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: mike85021
Except MIDI doesn't turn you into an idiot
Oh, i think there are some exception to that!
Technically, wouldn't that make one a "midiot" Dan
|
MurderDethKill
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1904
- Joined: 2005/02/13 15:46:22
- Location: Houston_we_have_a_Problem_here...
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/04 15:02:22
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: brendantownsend
I'm just wondering that whether with all of the popularity of MIDI then it won't just be improved upon by a collective shift in the means of interface. By this I mean wireless connectivity which would bring an increase in bandwidth in addition to wireless instrumentation. It sure is a pain trying to keep everything tidy and portable with bunches of wires hanging around, though wireless connectivity with perhaps backwards compatibility to the old standard would provide that migratory step. If we can achieve that with voice and video streaming along with everything else, then I'm sure there'll be plenty of bandwidth and capability for signalling overheads and the usual low-level error-correction which can be achieved in much less time than acceptated latency (etc).
I believe it's the outdated protocols that are now too restrictive, whereas nowadays you can achieve far more through a single connection - either wireless or USB for example. The only reason why MIDI has been around for so long is because it was carefully thought out over many years as Jmarkham mentioned, and the reason why I also believe that it will be around in one guise or another for quite some time to come.
Brendan.
ORIGINAL: jmarkham
that's why i'm trying to make the distinction between the protocol and the carrier/format.
there's no reason that midi couldn't be delivered over bluetooth or whatever wireless
you would like .. including cell phone carriers. there are already products which carry
midi over standard TCP/IP .. and therefore WiFi. Perhaps it's
low-bandwidth origins may actually be of benefit in the collaborative space ....
hmm wouldn't that be an interesting addition to P5 (peer to peer or multicast
jam sessions ;-) ).
jeff
That's exactly what I'm talking about!!! ORIGINAL: jmarkham
I think a more modern version would be kind of what the AAF (Advanced Authoriing Format Association) is
trying to do .. unify various multi-media into one standard. I mean it would be kind of cool to have a format which could encapsulate all aspects of a performance and/or multimedia event. But MIDI is likely to be around .. encapsulated inside AAF in one form or another.
We'll have to see where AAF goes and how many companies jump on-board.
jeff
...along with WinFX replacing/surplanting DXi (see thread here -along with Ron Kuper's reply). I think that this demonstrates that midi as it's currently defined/implimented is bursting at the seams and is going to evolve or dissolve! All it's going to take is for someone to take that first step...and then boom! That's why I think that a newer, broader standard has to be designed, agreed upon, and most importantly, implemented by the Manufacturers and the Software Designers so that we'll have a Better way to translate musical vision into aural reality . what do you think? edit: grammar and spelling-aren't spell-checkers wunderful?
post edited by MurderDethKill - 2005/08/04 15:18:27
|
mike85021
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1532
- Joined: 2004/01/12 20:16:47
- Location: Phoenix AZ
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 08:23:22
(permalink)
|
MIDIMONSTER
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 64
- Joined: 2005/01/26 09:55:31
- Location: Beantown
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD?
2005/08/05 09:36:37
(permalink)
All of you guys need to check out OpenSoundControl, it may be one of the best up and coming protocols. The main reason is because it is more flexible than any other system out there(communicates over Ethernet or Wireless). Check under the Implementations section of the site you'll find NI products that are compatible as well as Cycling74 and new controllers such as the Lemur. = )
|
:10:
Max Output Level: -38.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3678
- Joined: 2004/10/24 21:31:38
- Status: offline
|
woodamand
Max Output Level: -77 dBFS
- Total Posts : 673
- Joined: 2003/11/10 15:56:37
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 11:57:19
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MysticMizer
When I think of Midi I think of step sequencing and device communication as opposed to the connector.
I was thinking just the other day that it would be great if there were wider spread availability of midi-based drum loops as opposed to audio loops.
thats why I don't use drum loops! drum loops are DEAD! With midi drums, like the excellent GrooveMonkee stuff, I can not only work with the notes, but mess with the sounds as much as I want using any available sampler. I know that being able to mess with each slice in a loop is wonderful, but to me it just doesn't satisfy - and I used to do it a lot Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water!
|
rabeach
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2703
- Joined: 2004/01/26 14:56:13
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 12:56:44
(permalink)
Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water! babies on fire better throw her in the water. :-)
|
MysticMizer
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 402
- Joined: 2004/08/14 18:09:37
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 12:58:51
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MysticMizer
When I think of Midi I think of step sequencing and device communication as opposed to the connector.
I was thinking just the other day that it would be great if there were wider spread availability of midi-based drum loops as opposed to audio loops.
thats why I don't use drum loops! drum loops are DEAD! With midi drums, like the excellent GrooveMonkee stuff, I can not only work with the notes, but mess with the sounds as much as I want using any available sampler.
I know that being able to mess with each slice in a loop is wonderful, but to me it just doesn't satisfy - and I used to do it Well the wonderful thing about "P5 and the Groove Matrix" (cool name for a band no?) is that the two can co-exist with ease and precision.
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria . Bill Muray
|
woodamand
Max Output Level: -77 dBFS
- Total Posts : 673
- Joined: 2003/11/10 15:56:37
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 13:27:15
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: rabeach
Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water!
babies on fire better throw her in the water. :-)
that is such a great song - that whole 801 live album is a classic - plus ya make me laugh, thanks!
|
woodamand
Max Output Level: -77 dBFS
- Total Posts : 673
- Joined: 2003/11/10 15:56:37
- Status: offline
RE: IS MIDI DEAD? - No DRUM LOOPS are!
2005/08/05 13:29:04
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MysticMizer
ORIGINAL: MysticMizer
When I think of Midi I think of step sequencing and device communication as opposed to the connector.
I was thinking just the other day that it would be great if there were wider spread availability of midi-based drum loops as opposed to audio loops.
thats why I don't use drum loops! drum loops are DEAD! With midi drums, like the excellent GrooveMonkee stuff, I can not only work with the notes, but mess with the sounds as much as I want using any available sampler.
I know that being able to mess with each slice in a loop is wonderful, but to me it just doesn't satisfy - and I used to do it
Well the wonderful thing about "P5 and the Groove Matrix" (cool name for a band no?) is that the two can co-exist with ease and precision.
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria .
Bill Muray
agreed - and in spite of what I said, I will at some point I am sure mess with loops in the Matrix. Yeah! Have my cake and eat it too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks to the bakers.....
|