wmb
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 21:09:10
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cheez
Sorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
The software wasn't unusable on release. I think the only way to really sort these things out is to get the software into use as a production tool. There's no way beta testing teams can simulate hundreds of people putting the software to use as a tool in real world situations. That's hundreds of systems, hundreds or methods, hundreds of situations where different combinations of clicks, drags, drops, undo, copy, import, export, paste, you name it - get jammed together all at one time. This is where the discoveries are made. I find it hard to believe people who are involved in music production have a hard time with the idea that things aren't perfect the first time or that after a few listens you think you can do better. If software was all on the surface like a recording then it would be easy but what you see is only the beginning. I would say finding a mistake in code is probably about as easy as spotting a wrong note by looking at a wave file.
X2 & X3c - GA-Z77X-UP5 TH mobo | i7 3770k | 16 gigs RAM | Win7/64 | Audio Drive 2TB RAID0 | Data & Backup 2TB RAID1 | OS drive 256 gig SSD | Apogee AD16x -> Tascam DM3200 -> IF-FWDM-mk2 via Apple FW to Thunderbolt adapter -
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lawajava
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 21:23:25
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I'm very glad for the fixes in X3c. X3 has already been working great. This just makes me feel like I'm going to have an even smoother experience.
The fixes that I was especially keen on, getting PodFarm and Guitar Rig 5 to work more seamlessly in X3, were addressed and I'm raring to go on those.
Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
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Anderton
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 21:25:50
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Beepster
Another thing that would be cool now that I understand Craig Anderton's Advanced Workshop entry about frequency filtering with the VS 64 Multiband Compressor (or whatever it's called) is if the PC EQ had a setting to filter out bands in a similar way. The VS Multiband is pretty resource intensive so to have multiple instances of it just to portion out parts of the frequency spectrum might bog a project down. The current band filters on the PC are curved in such a way it wouldn't be the same thing. So if there was a filter setting that didn't actually process anything but just created 4 or 5 blocks that could be individually bypassed/silenced all that would have to be done is clone the tracks. This way if I'm working on a guitar part I can set up my sims and other effects based on a specific range without using a plugin to filter the frequencies and/or screw around too much trying to isolate the bands.
Basically what you want is a crossover, not a parametric EQ, which would require a completely different architecture compared to that of the PC EQ. However, the Sonitus multiband compressor works just fine and doesn't use as many resources; in fact it's almost always what I use. Where the LP really shines is in the very high frequencies, but as soon as you throw a cab on an amp sim, the frequencies aren't there anyway. I think that if you inserted an LP64 Multiband and a Sonitus with identical settings and A/Bed them, you would hear no significant difference.
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Zo
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 21:32:04
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Can anybody confirm this :
create several buses ...display just like 4 cm alocated in the track view ....double click on each of them after scrolling to maximise each of them to fit those 4 cm ...then scroll : size not consistant for each "mouse click scroll" ....instead of having each bus(feeding all the 4cm) displayed for each scroll , it is inconsistant ....
This was the case in X1 ....is it a bug or a new impentation ?
By the way in views Bakers acn add a bug fixed : moving the reading cursor doesn't make it disaparear time to time according to the time posistion ....bug fixed ....
Still i have this multimbrales super slow insertion ....
Screensets switching seems ways smoother ;)
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rontarrant
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 21:42:52
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☄ Helpfulby Franky Panic 2013/11/02 00:24:20
If you really need it to start in the middle, converting it to an audio track is a workable option.
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Anderton
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 22:06:57
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☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2013/11/02 06:51:08
cheez
Sorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
If you think the number of bug fixes is "numerous and extensive," that list is nothing compared to the list of bugs that get tracked and fixed during the development process. It would be like a batter who hit .987, and all people could focus on was that he didn't hit the ball the other .013 at-bats. Perfection is rare. For example, there was a typo in your post ("There number" instead of "The number") and a grammatical error: When used as a noun referring to an arithmetical value, the word number is singular so you should have said "The number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c is..." Now, that's only two errors out of an entire paragraph, but if you knew they were there, why didn't you fix them? And if you didn't know they were there...well, that's exactly how bugs happen!  It's also important to realize that the number of permutations and combinations of how people use software is in the millions. There is no way to test all of those possibilities prior to release if you expect to release something before the sun collapses into a dwarf star. When you have bugs like "Double-click maximize and 'Fit Project' would not work correctly in projects with hidden tracks" you had to have someone test a project with hidden tracks and then wanted to double-click maximize and 'fit project' and found out that it crashed...then be able to reproduce how it happened, and make it happen repeatedly. Or a bug like "Resolved a crash when selecting 'Selected Track inputs...' menu item in a project with no tracks." I would NEVER find a bug like that because if a project had no tracks, I would not select Selected Track Inputs. Then are the bugs like "Resolved a hang that could occur when dragging tracks and folders." The "could" occur bugs relate to various different conditions, so kudos to whoever tracks down the "could" bugs. X3 was very stable for an initial release, the forumites have confirmed that. Some of the bug fixes in X3c are pretty esoteric. Even a crack beta team with dozens of people are going to have a hard time finding those. This isn't being an apologist for Sonar, I would say the same for any software manufacturer. Frankly, I'm really proud of the Bakers for being so relentless about tracking down bugs. They could have said "well people seem pretty happy, I guess we can take off for a month." But they didn't. Besides, you had better hope the day never comes when a software company does an initial release of a piece of software and it contains no bugs, because that will be a sign the world is coming to an end.
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deswind
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/10/31 22:44:02
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I love X3. And I stayed on 8.5.3 for years. I thought there would be a steep learning curve and there is not. I thought there would be a lot of bugs. And yes there are some, but they are easy for me to work around. The main thing is that it is smooth and sounds great. It seems to sound better than 8.5.3. That is worth something. I do wish I could make the record button on the tracks be a little more predominant, but in time, I will get use to that. I remember the days when I was using tape and we thought this type of recording would never be this accessible or this inexpensive. Let's see - what type of bugs did tape have -- biasing the machine, heads wearing down, wow and flutter, having to rewind and fast forward all the time, different tape runs from the manufacturer, splicing tape issues, storing issues, magnetic issues, the cost of the tape, try the undo on a tape, tape noise, making a perfect copy of a tape like digital, etc. etc. It did not take long for a lot of people to start taking these drastic improvements in digital recording for granted. I am very grateful.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 08:02:40
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cheez
Sorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
This is one of the misconceptions about the software development process lifecycle. All software has bugs - period. What companies strive for to optimize quality is is a *low* observable / actual bugs ratio. During a given development process cycle we fix several hundreds of issues old as well as new. Many of these occur under exception conditions and some are not even easily observable by QA engineers since the symptoms are more visible in the code not that easily in the user interface. The net result of these multitudes of fixes can be a net user perception of the app being more stable or responsive feel. This is likely why many have observed that X3 feels more "solid". In general, bug fixes are a good thing and not an indication of a lack of quality or missed testing. [edit: fixed typo]
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2013/11/01 10:03:15
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Mystic38
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 08:47:01
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I Rather doubt that anyone who has ever worked in software development will share your opinion. I have, and I don't. Take a look at the data. If you review the extensive list of bugs discovered and fixed, to a large part they are corner cases of using specific plugs, or compound faults requiring specific modes of operation and use.. Such things are extremely difficult to detect during beta testing. The bottom line is that there are as many system setups and test environments as there are users of Sonar, and it is simply not possible to cover every single possible combination of track, project, mode, function, plug combination, routing, synth and use in a lab or open beta test program. So to me, the most solid approach is for a solid first release and rapid attention to bug fixes.. exactly as CW has done it with X3 cheez
Sorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
HPE-580T with i7-950, 8G, 1.5T, ATI6850, Win7/64, Motu 828 III Hybrid, Motu Midi Express, Sonar Platinum, Komplete 9, Ableton Live 9 & Push 2, Melodyne Editor and other stuff, KRK VXT8 Monitors Virus Ti2 Polar, Fantom G6, Yamaha S70XS, Novation Nova, Novation Nova II, Korg MS2000, Waldorf Micro Q, NI Maschine Studio, TC-VoiceLive Rack, 2012 Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2001 Gibson Les Paul DC, 1999 Fender Am Hardtail Strat, Fender Blues Jr, Orange TH30/PPC212, Tak EF360GF, one mic, no talent.
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STinGA
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 09:26:34
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Anderton
cheezSorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
If you think the number of bug fixes is "numerous and extensive," that list is nothing compared to the list of bugs that get tracked and fixed during the development process. It would be like a batter who hit .987, and all people could focus on was that he didn't hit the ball the other .013 at-bats. Perfection is rare. For example, there was a typo in your post ("There number" instead of "The number") and a grammatical error: When used as a noun referring to an arithmetical value, the word number is singular so you should have said "The number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c is..." Now, that's only two errors out of an entire paragraph, but if you knew they were there, why didn't you fix them? And if you didn't know they were there...well, that's exactly how bugs happen! It's also important to realize that the number of permutations and combinations of how people use software is in the millions. There is no way to test all of those possibilities prior to release if you expect to release something before the sun collapses into a dwarf star. When you have bugs like "Double-click maximize and 'Fit Project' would not work correctly in projects with hidden tracks" you had to have someone test a project with hidden tracks and then wanted to double-click maximize and 'fit project' and found out that it crashed...then be able to reproduce how it happened, and make it happen repeatedly. Or a bug like "Resolved a crash when selecting 'Selected Track inputs...' menu item in a project with no tracks." I would NEVER find a bug like that because if a project had no tracks, I would not select Selected Track Inputs. Then are the bugs like "Resolved a hang that could occur when dragging tracks and folders." The "could" occur bugs relate to various different conditions, so kudos to whoever tracks down the "could" bugs. X3 was very stable for an initial release, the forumites have confirmed that. Some of the bug fixes in X3c are pretty esoteric. Even a crack beta team with dozens of people are going to have a hard time finding those. This isn't being an apologist for Sonar, I would say the same for any software manufacturer. Frankly, I'm really proud of the Bakers for being so relentless about tracking down bugs. They could have said "well people seem pretty happy, I guess we can take off for a month." But they didn't. Besides, you had better hope the day never comes when a software company does an initial release of a piece of software and it contains no bugs, because that will be a sign the world is coming to an end.
Brilliant..... This should be s sticky!
Win 8 x64 Sonar X3b Producer X64 Edirol UA-101 BCF2000 A-Pro 500 Roland TD-6KV
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Beepster
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 09:32:23
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Anderton
Beepster
Another thing that would be cool now that I understand Craig Anderton's Advanced Workshop entry about frequency filtering with the VS 64 Multiband Compressor (or whatever it's called) is if the PC EQ had a setting to filter out bands in a similar way. The VS Multiband is pretty resource intensive so to have multiple instances of it just to portion out parts of the frequency spectrum might bog a project down. The current band filters on the PC are curved in such a way it wouldn't be the same thing. So if there was a filter setting that didn't actually process anything but just created 4 or 5 blocks that could be individually bypassed/silenced all that would have to be done is clone the tracks. This way if I'm working on a guitar part I can set up my sims and other effects based on a specific range without using a plugin to filter the frequencies and/or screw around too much trying to isolate the bands.
Basically what you want is a crossover, not a parametric EQ, which would require a completely different architecture compared to that of the PC EQ. However, the Sonitus multiband compressor works just fine and doesn't use as many resources; in fact it's almost always what I use. Where the LP really shines is in the very high frequencies, but as soon as you throw a cab on an amp sim, the frequencies aren't there anyway. I think that if you inserted an LP64 Multiband and a Sonitus with identical settings and A/Bed them, you would hear no significant difference.
Thanks for the explanation and terminology correction (still learning). Very cool. I think you even mentioned the Sonitus in that vid and I had been meaning to try them both out for this purpose. Not quite sure what you mean about the cab removing frequencies. You mean it yanks out the top of the spectrum? But you see what I mean how it might be useful to have that right on the PC strip somewhere. Then again that technique probably isn't all that common (if it is your vid is the only place I've seen it mentioned). I'll be trying it out today or tomorrow now that I've fixed the complete routing hack job I did on my tester project (my first attempt with X2 over a year ago). I can also see me using this for other instruments and doing some creative effect type stuff with it. Something like that new BiFilter mangling up the different freqs in different modes could sound pretty crazy or delays/choruses/whatever might create some interesting stuff. hmm... I just had a thought that it might be useful to filter out overtones when using Melodyne to extract midi for a bit more accuracy. Definitely a lot of possibilities. I hope with your new job you can still find time to put together tuts like that for us. Cheers.
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Anderton
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 16:17:41
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Beepster
Thanks for the explanation and terminology correction (still learning). Very cool. I think you even mentioned the Sonitus in that vid and I had been meaning to try them both out for this purpose. Not quite sure what you mean about the cab removing frequencies. You mean it yanks out the top of the spectrum? [1] But you see what I mean how it might be useful to have that right on the PC strip somewhere. Then again that technique probably isn't all that common (if it is your vid is the only place I've seen it mentioned). [2]
[1] The high-frequency response of most cabs tops out around 5kHz. [2] You're right. Not that many people do multi-band processing, let alone feel the need for a crossover. But try it with the Sonitus, you'll be hooked. It does amazing things with distortion but also multiband delays with different delays in different parts of the spectrum can be VERY cool. Chorusing, too.
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Anderton
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 16:19:13
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STinGA
Anderton
cheezSorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
If you think the number of bug fixes is "numerous and extensive," that list is nothing compared to the list of bugs that get tracked and fixed during the development process. It would be like a batter who hit .987, and all people could focus on was that he didn't hit the ball the other .013 at-bats.
Perfection is rare. For example, there was a typo in your post ("There number" instead of "The number") and a grammatical error: When used as a noun referring to an arithmetical value, the word number is singular so you should have said "The number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c is..." Now, that's only two errors out of an entire paragraph, but if you knew they were there, why didn't you fix them? And if you didn't know they were there...well, that's exactly how bugs happen!
It's also important to realize that the number of permutations and combinations of how people use software is in the millions. There is no way to test all of those possibilities prior to release if you expect to release something before the sun collapses into a dwarf star. When you have bugs like "Double-click maximize and 'Fit Project' would not work correctly in projects with hidden tracks" you had to have someone test a project with hidden tracks and then wanted to double-click maximize and 'fit project' and found out that it crashed...then be able to reproduce how it happened, and make it happen repeatedly. Or a bug like "Resolved a crash when selecting 'Selected Track inputs...' menu item in a project with no tracks." I would NEVER find a bug like that because if a project had no tracks, I would not select Selected Track Inputs. Then are the bugs like "Resolved a hang that could occur when dragging tracks and folders." The "could" occur bugs relate to various different conditions, so kudos to whoever tracks down the "could" bugs.
X3 was very stable for an initial release, the forumites have confirmed that. Some of the bug fixes in X3c are pretty esoteric. Even a crack beta team with dozens of people are going to have a hard time finding those. This isn't being an apologist for Sonar, I would say the same for any software manufacturer. Frankly, I'm really proud of the Bakers for being so relentless about tracking down bugs. They could have said "well people seem pretty happy, I guess we can take off for a month." But they didn't. Besides, you had better hope the day never comes when a software company does an initial release of a piece of software and it contains no bugs, because that will be a sign the world is coming to an end.
Brilliant..... This should be s sticky!
Wow, you read the whole thing!! I'm flattered.
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Beepster
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 18:03:34
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Anderton
Beepster
Thanks for the explanation and terminology correction (still learning). Very cool. I think you even mentioned the Sonitus in that vid and I had been meaning to try them both out for this purpose. Not quite sure what you mean about the cab removing frequencies. You mean it yanks out the top of the spectrum? [1] But you see what I mean how it might be useful to have that right on the PC strip somewhere. Then again that technique probably isn't all that common (if it is your vid is the only place I've seen it mentioned). [2]
[1] The high-frequency response of most cabs tops out around 5kHz.
[2] You're right. Not that many people do multi-band processing, let alone feel the need for a crossover. But try it with the Sonitus, you'll be hooked. It does amazing things with distortion but also multiband delays with different delays in different parts of the spectrum can be VERY cool. Chorusing, too.
Great stuff, man. I obviously would have noticed the lack of high frequencies but I would never have known it was because of the cab. I'll have to experiment with this. Cheers.
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panup
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 20:57:20
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Brilliant posts from both Anderton and Noel Borthwick.
Thank you for explaining software development principles so patiently. :)
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Zo
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/01 23:23:51
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*low* observable / actual bugs ratio.
.....mmmmmm.....this was exactly why i posted my remarks in some thread and why people were acting crazy on me ....
Observable is the key word here ...
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Splat 
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/02 00:21:57
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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soens
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/02 04:19:23
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Anderton
STinGA
Anderton
cheezSorry for being a wet blanket here. There number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c are so numerous and extensive that it made me wonder why these weren't discovered during the beta stage. Or perhaps the product was released as a beta product and the early adopters became the beta testers. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly and faster than compared to previous versions. But there shouldn't be so many fixes needed on a finished product. I hope their beta testing/QA team get their act together.
If you think the number of bug fixes is "numerous and extensive," that list is nothing compared to the list of bugs that get tracked and fixed during the development process. It would be like a batter who hit .987, and all people could focus on was that he didn't hit the ball the other .013 at-bats.
Perfection is rare. For example, there was a typo in your post ("There number" instead of "The number") and a grammatical error: When used as a noun referring to an arithmetical value, the word number is singular so you should have said "The number of bug fixes in X3b and X3c is..." Now, that's only two errors out of an entire paragraph, but if you knew they were there, why didn't you fix them? And if you didn't know they were there...well, that's exactly how bugs happen!
It's also important to realize that the number of permutations and combinations of how people use software is in the millions. There is no way to test all of those possibilities prior to release if you expect to release something before the sun collapses into a dwarf star. When you have bugs like "Double-click maximize and 'Fit Project' would not work correctly in projects with hidden tracks" you had to have someone test a project with hidden tracks and then wanted to double-click maximize and 'fit project' and found out that it crashed...then be able to reproduce how it happened, and make it happen repeatedly. Or a bug like "Resolved a crash when selecting 'Selected Track inputs...' menu item in a project with no tracks." I would NEVER find a bug like that because if a project had no tracks, I would not select Selected Track Inputs. Then are the bugs like "Resolved a hang that could occur when dragging tracks and folders." The "could" occur bugs relate to various different conditions, so kudos to whoever tracks down the "could" bugs.
X3 was very stable for an initial release, the forumites have confirmed that. Some of the bug fixes in X3c are pretty esoteric. Even a crack beta team with dozens of people are going to have a hard time finding those. This isn't being an apologist for Sonar, I would say the same for any software manufacturer. Frankly, I'm really proud of the Bakers for being so relentless about tracking down bugs. They could have said "well people seem pretty happy, I guess we can take off for a month." But they didn't. Besides, you had better hope the day never comes when a software company does an initial release of a piece of software and it contains no bugs, because that will be a sign the world is coming to an end.
Brilliant..... This should be s sticky!
Wow, you read the whole thing!! I'm flattered.
Just for fun... or easier reading..., next time publish it in a 2 or 3 volume set. 
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cheez
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/02 06:23:49
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Thanks for the explanation people, esp the link to "Agile software development". That's certainly enlightening. Seeing that the patches contained mostly "fixes", it gave the appearance that bugs are being fixed. If nothing is wrong, nothing needs to be "fixed". That's quite different from "enhancement". That brings to the assumption that the released product is buggy. However, if this is part of the standard process for software development, that's fine. I can accept that explanation. I run organizations that stresses heavily upon processes. We don't do software - we deal with people and lives. Hence our margin for error is extremely narrow. So do pardon my lack of understanding for processes involved in software programming. And thank you Anderton for alluding me to my grammatical errors in my previous post . As I said, I'm still glad Cakewalk is releasing patches quickly - at a much faster pace than before. As a long time Cakewalk supporter and user since CWP7 (and religiously upgrading almost every version), I must say it's still a great product. This post has been helpful in giving us an understanding into the inner workings of the software industry.
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Anderton
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Anderton
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Re: List of X3c fixes
2013/11/02 13:15:28
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soens
Just for fun... or easier reading..., next time publish it in a 2 or 3 volume set.
The Blu-Ray Director's Cut will be available just in time for the holiday shopping season. It will also include a free code for a digital download.
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