Looking for a digital mixer with motorized faders to work with SONAR 2016.09.

I would like to kill my mouse and go with a console that has motorized faders with automation to mix my music. I'm looking for something with  at least 16, preferably 24 motorized faders to mix my music. I'm old school having worked years with a tape machine and a console and a "touchy feely" guy. I just can't get used to mixing in a box. I once had a Roland VS2480 before I went to DAW. When I did, I started with Sonar4?? (many versions ago) and I used the VS2480 via midi to mix. I sold that unit years ago and was waiting for a digital mixer to what I wanted at a reasonable price, under $3000. I once bought an used Tascam DM2400 and it just never worked right and after some conversations with Sonar(before Tascam) I returned it. I now see digital mixers with motorized faders hitting the market like the Soundcraft SI Expression3, Yamaha TF 1/2/3 and Presonus StudioLive Series III.
They all talk of live recording but don't mention about using them with a DAW (Sonar) for mixing from the DAW. Anyone has some knowledge to share with an old fart would be greatly appreciated 

 

if you are looking for a cost effective digi mixer that works as DAW controller, you could go with the Behringer X32. Excellent piece for what it costs. DAW control is limited, though, mostly due to Sonar's limited support for MCU protocol.
 
If you are just after a control surface, there are not many options as they did not sell too well and hence the bigger ones (>8 faders) are disappearing from the market again ... e.g. see here: http://forum.cakewalk.com...udio-700-m3495348.aspx

Off-topic. I think "Sonar needs" some solution for multichannel Digital Mixers with surface part, but hosts think that "a sampler" is more Sonar related then this question. I personally do not understand that logic...
 
Back to the topic.
Unfortunately, perfectly working combination of Digital Mixer + Sonar does not exist. Most Mixers are not thought to be used as DAW controllers, I think that post explains what I mean: https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?p=15488&sid=a32a310a309820635f109598ac2eb6a7#p15488
I have checked documentation for mixers you was mentioning and all of them can not be used as Sonar controllers. So motorized faders, knobs, buttons, etc. can be used to change parameters inside the mixer but not inside Sonar (or any other DAW).
 
Some other mixers have:
a) special "DAW control" mode, normally limited (f.e. only 8 channels, even if the mixer has more controls)
b) MIDI protocol, usually supposed to control the mixer from something else like iPad app, not in other direction.
 
Out of the box, Sonar support only Mackie Control protocol. Limiting the number of devices which can be used. No HUI (ProTools), no custom modules for (b).
Third party solutions can be used for (b), f.e. I have plug-in which can work with A&H Q seria. But these mixers do not transfer "fader touch" and send low resolution values, not the best option to control DAW (but in case your primary use for the mixer is live, with recording into Sonar, that is an option).
 
The only combination for ~$3-4k, which has 8+ good fully functional in Sonar touch sensitive faders and good stable audio input for recording, is Mackie Control (+ extenders for more then 8 channels) as a separate control surface and RME UFX as an audio interface (in fact it is more "rack digital mixer" with steering from computer). Note that such combination will not work without computer and has limited number of channels.
More or less success reports for modern Digital Mixer with limited DAW mode working in Sonar, I have seen Behringer X32 only.
And finally already mentioned A&H Q, if you are ready to scarify advanced functionality in DAW for compactness and the number of channels.
 
RME UFX in the first proposal can be replaces with modern MOTU interfaces or any Digital Mixer in "an audio interface" mode. The advantage of an audio interface is the possibility to control everything from computer (gain, routing, etc.) while the advantage of Digital Mixer is user friendly stand alone use. Also RME/MOTU can work with low latency, while Digital Mixers will have moderate till big latency for reliable operations.
 
But... I personally have never seen any digital mixer, RME interface nor Mackie control unit other the on pictures in Internet. But I know HOW any device communicate with Sonar, that is why I have replied
 

I'm saving up for a Tascam DM-4800.

Anyone interested in a SSL Nucleus ? Do some research and PM if interested in one.

To all who have replied, I thank you. You have confirmed what I've suspected all along. In an industry of professional and home recordists, one would think think that manufacturers would develop a system that would incorporate a recorder(DAW) and a console with motorized faders that would automate. Some DAWs do. Obviously Sonar is not one of them. I see companies as Presonus introduce their Presonus StudioLive Series III and I start to salivate . They have their own software and I have to start questioning " Do I really need Sonar as my my DAW"...... Another alternative I would be comfortable with is an analog console which I currently have, Yamaha RM800-24, a real workhorse. The only problem with that is all the Motherboards today abandoned PCI slots. M-Audio used to make a PCI card, the Delta 1010LT had 8 analog inputs and 8 analog outputs. You could link up to 4 cards. I had 3 for 24 track mixing out of Sonar. But alas when Sonar introduced 64 bit, I upgraded my OS W8, 64 bit and motherboard for faster CPU with faster and greater RAM capacity 16-32 GB, the PCI slots only had one. MBs were using the smaller PCI-Express slots. Companies now offer USB multi input audio interfaces. I bought 2 Focusrite 18i20 to do 16 track simultaneous recording with my desktop or remotely with my laptop. If I can find a way to get Sonar to see analog outputs on the 18i20, I could at least mix using the analog faders on my console.......I was hoping with today's technology, there would be choices to do exactly that!  But alas, this industry has left those who do not want to live in a box to jury rigging something different. Personally, I find that unacceptable! If Sonar and other DAWs could agree on some sort of MCU or similar protocol, as they did on MIDI, imagine they growth on DAW and mixer combos?

I think it may be that the way things work today the majority of us are now using automation and need to mix with multiple real faders has become redundant. Eight or even one is all you need to manage in a pass. 
For me it was a great day ( 1997?) that I started to control the faders on my Yamaha 01v with a simple midi sequencer run on an Atari. Prior to that I had just finished an album with 12 tracks ( seemed like a lot back then)  mixed on a Soundcraft 24 channel board and it took 2 of us to cue the mixes manually and about 30 passes before we would get it right. The mixing session took over a week. But boy we're we proud when we got it down! 
 
So now it was all automated and you could even make those micro adjustments never worth the bother before. But using the 01v was still out of the box mixing. 
In 2004 I dabbled in PC with Cakewalk Guitar studio but crappy sound cards and whatnot I stayed with my trusty Atari, Yamaha MD 8 and the 01v for a few years more. 
 
But thanks to this forum I finally got used to Sonar and with the us1641 I had multi channels too. 
For me the transition from the 01v automation to Sonars console  was painless. I can map the 01v to Sonar and use the faders via midi to control things but the 01v is to large to sit in front of me so for the sake of simplicity I use the mouse which to me is not a big issue. Sure faders would be better and someday if the right product came along I'd think about it. But money needs to be spent on many other things first. 
 
 

azslow3
A bit off-topic, but the work is in (slow) progress to make 01v map strait to Sonar (to make it work such a way as you would control Sonar the same way and with the same controls/pages you can control one 01v from another)

 
When you say that work is in progress...is this for the newer 96i version?
 
There was something available for the 01v that let you control faders and such...but I only toyed with it and haven't made it work in a lot of years.
 
Who is it that's making this (slow) progress and what version is it for?

dantarbill
Who is it that's making this (slow) progress and what version is it for?

Cactus Music
azslow writes programs, and apps for us all the time, so he must be the work in progress. 

I have only several devices, so particular controller integration is always done in cooperation with someone who has it.


For 01v, the "progress" you can find there:  http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,322.0.html
The subject is a bit misleading. It is about 01v, so old version. Toward the end there are some "test" presets. Everyone is welcome to participate with suggestions/testing.

RishiS
So if I was just looking for a control surface (without a mixer or audio interface), which one gets closest to controlling most part of Sonar, if not all :
 
Mackie Universal Control
Behringer X-Touch

These 2 are ABSOLUTELY equivalent in functionality. The difference is in brand/components/design.
 

Some thing else ?

With motor faders, display and not declared obsolete? Nothing else at the moment.
 
There is no surfaces which provide "ALL" functionality, not at the moment. Closest to that was VS-700 from Roland, but it is discontinued. EUCON based surfaces should be close to MCU in functionality (which is not "all").
 
Smaller/simpler devices exists: Presonus Faderport (with original and alternative setup) is nice single strip controller, BCR-2000 (alternative setup) has no faders and no display, but can do many things which no other controller can do (and with 24 encoders is probably unbeatable in number of encoders pro required space ratio).
 

Wow - I will disagree on VS 700 C usefulness - if you didn't try; it remains useful and one of the best controllers that continues to work with SPLAT.   I guess I am use to it's workflow and have continued to get everything out of it possible until - something better is presented... 
 
It will be interesting to see what Tascam does...

The latest Presonus Studiolive 111 are now fully 96k and work with MCU protocol.

azslow3
 
 
Out of the box, Sonar support only Mackie Control protocol. Limiting the number of devices which can be used. No HUI (ProTools),

The folks over at SSL think the MCU protocol is better and more widely accepted than the HUI protocol.

I have been using the Roland A-300 Pro as my controller. It is good but a little too limiting. I'm interested in the PreSonus Faderport 8.  It looks like it will do the job and suit my workflow style. Has anyone on this forum tested it with Sonar?  I have watched a couple of online reviews and it looks like it will work straight out of the box.

Rob at Sound-Rehab posted the following which requires a bit of clarification. 
if you are looking for a cost effective digi mixer that works as DAW controller, you could go with the Behringer X32. Excellent piece for what it costs. DAW control is limited, though, mostly due to Sonar's limited support for MCU protocol.
In my personal experience the issue is actually in the X32 Behringer & the Midas M32 (which I still own) since they only support 8 channels of integration / automation & not the 24 motorized faders that are on the mixers. After purchasing the M32 I was very disappointed because I was under the impression I was able to use all the faders to control Sonar with at least 24 tracks at a time. Along with the mixer I also purchased an optional DANTE card @ $950 which turned out to be an even bigger disappointment & added expense that I cannot use.
 
I notified the dealer this week & I am considering returning my M32 Midas along with the DANTE card & buying something that will work as a DAW mixer rather than a live mixer with the DAW integration as an afterthought.